Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

[kokubokan25]

Your useful work, however, continues without clear the principal doubt i have in reference aircraft production; the relation between aircraft production and the reinforcement schedule.
If with all this changes suggested, by example, the production of Nates is stopped in the first days of the war but the aifcraft reinforcement schedule says that a squadron of Ki-27 arrives in may/1942. This squadron is reemplaced with Oscars??? Simply is retired forever from the schedule??
In the same way, if you research with many months an advance the Reppu, appears squadron of this type in the schedule???

Tranks.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

I don't think I ever played BTR. I assume you could play it from either side and that both sides could freely R&D and upgrade?

I think in WitP the Japanese player's freedom (or lack of) with aircraft production and how he can use it was always going to be somewhat constrained by the fact that the Allied player has no ability at all to change his "historical" mix.

Complete freedom for the Japanese to R&D/re-equip would really have to be accompanied by a similar ability for the Allies. I'm not sure whether that fits in with the design intent for the game (the designers are the best ones to answer that).

Same as WITP. Only the Germans had any control over industry and research. The Allies could re-equip his sqdrns if he wanted too though. We all know that the allies will have far superior a/c by 1943. Japan has little chance of matching that capability. Their trained pilots will be superior to the Japanese as the game progresses. I see it as since the Japanese already have to secure, transport back to Japan oil, res and then trnasport the created supplies forward why not let us enjoy the fruits of our hard work by allowing us to have some say as to what unit gets what. There are quite a few KI-43-IIa Osacars that will be heavily outclassed against the allies. If I spend the time, blood ,sweat and tears building up so that I can mass produce KI-44 IIb Tojo which are better armed and have a better chance against the allies, why not allow me to swap out the 43's. Both are army land fighters. Both are basically Zeros. But only a few units will ever use them.

Just my .02

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

I don't think I ever played BTR. I assume you could play it from either side and that both sides could freely R&D and upgrade?

Man. It was a great game! Still is. It was more of a turn-based game for the Allies...Plan raids over Germany and the Med...send turn to axis opponent. Axis opponent watched raids and intercepted in real time. Awesome.

No the same as WitP. However I believe even the Allied player could manipulate his pools with respect to aircraft type, ie. if his P-38 losses were high in a given month and he had a surplus of P-47s he could refit a unit until his pools refilled with 38s. I'm not sure though I only played the Axis, that's where all the toys were.

ORIGINAL: Drongo
I think in WitP the Japanese player's freedom (or lack of) with aircraft production and how he can use it was always going to be somewhat constrained by the fact that the Allied player has no ability at all to change his "historical" mix.

I agree, but we already know that the allies have the winning formula on their side. The Japanese need all the help they can get to make the game challenging for the Allies. The challenge is giving that edge and not overdoing it. Allowing a Jap player to break down some of those upgrade path walls is hardly a game breaker for the allies, it just makes sense. I have a surplus of a great aiplane, say 50. I don't have any units that are in the path, so I have to suffer with say Oscars instead of Franks, or A6m5s instead of Georges? That just blows.

ORIGINAL: Drongo
Complete freedom for the Japanese to R&D/re-equip would really have to be accompanied by a similar ability for the Allies. I'm not sure whether that fits in with the design intent for the game (the designers are the best ones to answer that).

I'm all for pool manipulation. See my above comment re: BTR (great game..)

[Drongo]

Answer this I wil try.

ORIGINAL: fremen
If with all this changes suggested, by example, the production of Nates is stopped in the first days of the war but the aifcraft reinforcement schedule says that a squadron of Ki-27 arrives in may/1942. This squadron is reemplaced with Oscars??? Simply is retired forever from the schedule??

In the current version of WitP, the reinforcement air unit listed as being equipped with Nates will arrive as scheduled (and equipped with Nates) if there are sufficient Nates in the replacement pool around the time of arrival.

If there are not enough Nates in the replacement pool, the reinforcement unit will not arrive until:
a) There are enough Nates in the replacement pool
OR
b) A later aircraft type from the air units upgrade path (ie Oscar-II) is available in sufficient numbers in the replacement pool.

In the same way, if you research with many months an advance the Reppu, appears squadron of this type in the schedule???

No. What you see in the reinforcement list is all you get. No new units will appear just because you are producing a new type. Instead existing units on the map and reinforcement units as they arrive will upgrade to that new type if their upgrade path allows it and sufficient numbers are available.

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: TheElf
I'm all for pool manipulation. See my above comment re: BTR (great game..)

I'll pass that on to the designers. What were they thinking? [:)]

I think I looked at BTR in its early days but there seemed to be a long bug list being reported at the time so I opted out of considering it.

So I went back to playing Doom II. [8D]

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: brisd
I concur that the restriction on the upgrade paths the most irritating part of the Japanese production system I've found...

I wish a system similar to what is used to change commanders or transfer units to different HQ was implemented: you wish to upgrade a Nate group to Nicks it costs xxx political points. Gives the players some control, but allows the designers to keep it somewhat restricted.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well, this is really a serious problem....

we do not replay history, not for the allies and not for the japanese... if we can change production (and it is very verygood we can, cause we can avoid the mistakes of the real time) we should also be able to change the planes at will (as long as naval planes stay naval and fighters/Fb´s can´t changed to bombers (exception: mossies...)

But i also agree that the allies too should have a (partly) impact on production... why not equal to the japanese ?
1.) The pac war got the rest of the toys that the allies could spare from the "real" war in europe... esp. at planes. So other as in europe or for the japanese, the allies have not the 100% free decision of doing (more p38 sounds good, but the fighter pilots in euope would kill you if they do not get their p47s..
2.) The allies got better planes in a large ammount - the need of changing anything is not so important. But my first doing was the change of the upgrade path for both sides, so i think the allies too need some "better" planes if they are surplus...

The pp-point thing should be done with any upgrade... but let the costs for the allies be very high (with a lesser level later in the war)

Generally, the bob/btr-system is the best, you can retool at will (but i suggest the old pacwar punishment (10% of the experience if you change in the row (fighter to fighter) or (new idea! (15% if you change outside the row..., fighter => fighter bomber)....

and, for real heavies, the exp. loss should be 20%... cause the switch from b17/b24 to b29 (a fully new plane) should be higher as from a20B to a20g....

i will against ai allways change the upgrade path in an own scenario.... esp. for the japanese there is no use to play longer as spring 43 with this upgrade path

Also, the possibility to downgrade planes (the big advantage of btr...!) is really missing. If i have 200 zeros2 as surplus, but no zero2 groups, but my zero3 groups lack 200 planes (not pilots) i want to reswitch em...

Better would be the full possibilities like btr... but i think this can´t be done now [&:]

[kokubokan25]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

In the current version of WitP, the reinforcement air unit listed as being equipped with Nates will arrive as scheduled (and equipped with Nates) if there are sufficient Nates in the replacement pool around the time of arrival.

If there are not enough Nates in the replacement pool, the reinforcement unit will not arrive until:
a) There are enough Nates in the replacement pool
OR
b) A later aircraft type from the air units upgrade path (ie Oscar-II) is available in sufficient numbers in the replacement pool.


No. What you see in the reinforcement list is all you get. No new units will appear just because you are producing a new type. Instead existing units on the map and reinforcement units as they arrive will upgrade to that new type if their upgrade path allows it and sufficient numbers are available.

MANY, MANY THANKS Drongo, Maybe the manual needs some explanation in the Production section (a huge new section with tips etc..i hope).

[brisd]

A question. Could any of you load up Scenario 15 as Japan and check Gumma's aircraft production? Does it show 0 (320) Ki-84's in research? Just want to make sure I've not corrupted the scenario somehow. If that is correct, then the designers appeared to want massive Ki-84 production and the only way to use all those aircraft is to allow the Nates and Oscar IIa's to upgrade to it. I am delusional here or any one else see this? Thanks!

[Drongo]

In scenario 15, Gumma does start with 320 damaged Ki-84 industry with 0 repaired.

[Rainerle]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Also, the possibility to downgrade planes (the big advantage of btr...!) is really missing. If i have 200 zeros2 as surplus, but no zero2 groups, but my zero3 groups lack 200 planes (not pilots) i want to reswitch em...

I agree, this is a MUST !!!![&o][&o]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Better would be the full possibilities like btr... but i think this can´t be done now [&:]

That would be very good indeed, but possibly with the restriction of Japanese army/navy stuff i.e. no switching between them.

[Lemurs!]

Hi all,

I was in San Francisco on business for a week, plus a couple days in beautiful Muir Woods etc but today i am posting to Spooky my definitive Scn 15 mod and a text file with changes.

Mike

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

ORIGINAL: brisd
I concur that the restriction on the upgrade paths the most irritating part of the Japanese production system I've found...

I wish a system similar to what is used to change commanders or transfer units to different HQ was implemented: you wish to upgrade a Nate group to Nicks it costs xxx political points. Gives the players some control, but allows the designers to keep it somewhat restricted.

Excellent idea. I would put some kind of a pool requirement in there too, like you have to have at least 25 percent of the current TBO in the pool before you can upgrade.

[brisd]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

In scenario 15, Gumma does start with 320 damaged Ki-84 industry with 0 repaired.

Thanks for that confirmation, I thought I was seeing things at first. Total build out (TBO) of the Ki-44 is 180 and it upgrades to the Ki-84a, which brings its TBO to 324. That's one months production of aircraft already hard coded into the game. Obviously the Japanese Army thinks it's going to need lots of George's? Seems logical to even me that would be the upgrade for the Nates and Oscars as well. Any comments?

[TheElf]

Lemurs! Thanks for doing that. I look forward to the info.

By the way I was looking over the R&D at start in your Scen 26. There doesn't seem to be a Ki-84a research factory, but there is a Ki-84c. Was this a default of the original Scen 15 or something you mod'd? If so why?

I read somewhere that you were involved in BTR with JC Larusso. Is this true? In what capacity? Is JC still running his amazing BTR mod site? It has been a few months but the last time i was there the forums seemd to be up but the links to the OOB and game patches were down.

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: brisd
Seems logical to even me that would be the upgrade for the Nates and Oscars as well. Any comments?

Me?

Really the designers are the only ones who can tell you WTF.

All you can do is second guess. [;)]

If you think something was definitely missed with this, just ask the question in the OOB thread.

Cheers

[brisd]

I have added this issue to the OOB thread (yesterday) when it came to my attention. I have no problem with the designers (it's their design [;)]) simulating the huge effort Japan put into researching a replacement for the Ki-43 series as shown in the 320 factories devoted to research in Gumma. I just want them to follow thru and allow us to use the fruits of that labor! [8D]

[Cap Mandrake]

The problem with allowing massive anhistorical changes in aircraft production is the player is able to look at the numerical values for a "future" aircraft (or game it out in a different scenario) then go back in time and otimize production in an omiscient fashion. The decision-makers could not have known these things for sure without protoypes or even combat use.

The history of military aircraft is replete with failed ideas that SEEMED like a good idea at the time (insert your favorite lemon here). There is the additional issue of turf battles on iaircraft production decisions...and perhaps..I dont even know in 1940's Japan...the profit motive.

Still...if it balances the fight in 44-45 it might be fun.

[brisd]

I am not asking for ahistorical change in my example. The designers have already got 320 airframes a month devoted to the Ki-84a but only have a dozen units that can use that production. Something ain't right. I agree about letting all historical limitations go out the window, that is not what I am seeking just some justifaction for this example. Some players would like to have '45 airplaces in '43 but it just shouldn't occur IMHO.

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Hi all,

I was in San Francisco on business for a week, plus a couple days in beautiful Muir Woods etc but today i am posting to Spooky my definitive Scn 15 mod and a text file with changes.

Mike

This news version is now available at the WITP Fansite !