CD fee?!?!

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

snip

That's a very good point about marketing. It would be interesting to get an idea of what marketing people find most effective in persuading them to buy wargames!

Regards
33

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

Well just name a game that will last you the next 5 to ten years??

Just one [;)]? Civilization. System shock 2. Any decent chess game. Im sure a couple others as well...

Will WitP last 5 to 10 year? I dont know, because I really dont know for sure what kind oof game it is. Maybe it will last 5 hours. You see, the PRICE is not the reason a game lasts..[:D]

Civilization III plus the cost of the latest expansion , Conquests would Add up pretty much what WITP costs...

Yeah you get a Cd and Manuel... but point is it is a MASS MARKETED game which likely has a narrow profit line...

Btw, Civilization is fun in its way but in a sense it isn't much of a war game, its just fun, but not really that "mind expanding"

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I could be wrong.

This comment...

"How many of these people who want the game, but dont want to spend 79$ on it end up downloading it from the net for 0$? It took me 1 minute to find 2 Matrix titles on the net. It is even more tempting because you dont get less than you get from a Matrix DD (no manual or CD)."

Simply sounded like an off handed way of remarking how commercially sold games can be "located" online being offered "free" when in fact they were not free.

It is remarks like that, which tend to get a person in dangerous waters was all I was claiming.

What Matrix titles through?

Theres two that are FREE to d/l : WIR and Pacwar the matrix version.

Have to wonder if those are the 2 hes talking of..

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


Oh and that's another thing about computer games these days, patches, without an internet connection how does one obtain a "free" fix to a broken game, that they can't return for a refund to software outlets? Even when I buy a book (media), I can return it for another book or a "full refund" if pages are missing (faulty/buggy software)

When you think about it, some of us have to spend $120 (dialup) and for those with cable $360 a year, for what? Patches? Email? Piddling in forums? Downloading games we have to pay a "premium" price for as well as the internet connection?? Think about the whole picture here, it's costing us a lot of money to maintain our hobby, that was not always there back in the 80's. You could call up a software developer or publisher and they would send you "free" patch disks in the mail. You also could "return" faulty software for a "full refund". Things sure have changed and the costs are coming more out of our pockets. You could even call them up on the phone 1-800 numbers and they would give you technical help with getting the game to work on your system.

If I could get free patches in the mail, and be able to buy all games through a retailer with the ability for a refund, I'd have no need for the internet. It's just another nicety, it shouldn't be a necessity for getting patches and fixes for games.

Software developers/Publishers philosophy: Oh nevermind the pirates, we'll just charge the honest people more. Cost them more money to hire private dectectives and lawyers and of course bad publicity in the long run to go after pirates. Sure is unfair to those of us who support their work I think.

On Patchs, I think for the large Patch Matrix would work with someone who has a Dialup only connection, I would point out that with Windows many programs are "bloted" I get virius updates that are 1-2 Megs in size and theres other games with Multi MEG sized PATCHS out there so matrix is not alone in that.

The upcoming service 2 from Mickysoft will be around I believe 80 MB

So get over it, theres alot of programs and games with sizable patchs to download.

There is no such thing as "FREE" even those "FREE" patchs in past were things people paid for, if not in the price of the retail box (you think the prices of software didn't have a built in "free patch" cost?)
Then in the price of the next version/upgrade/expansion

I really think thinking one should get "free" patchs is bad, if you cannot download the size patch it is not unreasonable for a mailed patch to have a handling cost.

As to Pirates and cost more for game i got Big fat News for you, and I'm thinking your likely some youngster not a full grown adult cause adults know this fact:

EVERYTHING nowadays has a BUILT IN Theft Pct into the prices, be it a Book, a Game, a bag of jelly Beans or whatever..

The Average shoplifting losses plus costs of cameras, security etc are averaged out and put into all goods prices stores sell as an expense before the profit markup so your in fact no matter what you pay for, paying for "theft" costs.

So the rant about software prices including losess to pirates etc is unreasonable since it is no different then other goods, in fact
BOXED, Retail software in stores is likely selling with a $5 to $10 tacked on price for the average losses to shoplifting, so That $40 game may include a $5-10 markup in its price to cover such losses and also to cover the anti-shoplifting costs!!

[:-]

[ravinhood]

BOXED, Retail software in stores is likely selling with a $5 to $10 tacked on price for the average losses to shoplifting, so That $40 game may include a $5-10 markup in its price to cover such losses and also to cover the anti-shoplifting costs!!

You just proved my point, thank you. Software is marked up to pay the costs of piracy, you said it yourself.

And lemme tell yah I worked retail for 20 years, so don't give me any speeches on markups and why, yes, I know very well about the 2% shoplifting projections in businesses. That's not my point, the point is, software( and other items) are marked UP to the honest consumer BECAUSE of THEFT and PIRACY! My whole point exactly, honest consumers pay for piracy.

[Hexed Gamer]

"What Matrix titles through?

Theres two that are FREE to d/l : WIR and Pacwar the matrix version.

Have to wonder if those are the 2 hes talking of.."

Well they might have been referred to by name, most usually do mention them if they mean them.

I won't say he wasn't, but I am only able to wonder if he meant the same old way most games are circulated on the internet. To many ways to actually mention them all.

He at least wasn't silly enough to give actual examples

[Error in 0]

Anyone who believe I promote downloading cracked games can consider themself morons. Anyone who believe that not talking about it will somhow prevent it is equally morons. If anyone read my posts, I have mentioned which games I saw, and they are not the free ones from Matrix. And I repeat myself, saying this this will not make hordes of peoples who read this forums rush the internet downloading the games. If you are of another opinion, then show this effect to me. In the context of this thread, piracy is a point, and I mentioned this because of that. If you somehow feel this promotes piracy, then do not bring the subject up, thus keeping it alive.

[Error in 0]

....
Alot cut [:)]

Basically some of us disagree, and thank god for that! The fact is that Matrix loose som potential customers by having the price and policy they have on some of their game. One should not underestimate the power of having the game boxed on the shelf. I also believe that the extra cost of providing a CD and Manual instead of just DD as the only choice will not add much to the price (it usually is alot cheaper massproducing), but will add much to the buyers. Finally, I believe in the power of demos as a sale argument, especially if it is a niche game like WitP.

But I cant help wonder: if I, who like both DOOM type of games as well as HoI and Korsun is interested in WitP, I am sure many others are as well. And many of them wont buy the game because they either do not hear about it, or think it too much $ for the trouble. We really don't care much if the game last 100 years, as there are always something as lucrative out there, easier to get and/or cheaper.

JT

[Marc von Martial]

The upcoming service 2 from Mickysoft will be around I believe 80 MB

The full thing is 266mb .

[Hexed Gamer]

To demo or not ot demo.

Ok here is a good comparison.

ASL Advanced Squad Leader is currently likely the most expensive wargame in existence. Doesn't slow people down paying even MORE for it on eBay when they just don't feel like waiting for regular channels to get it into their hands either.

At 70 plus bucks for a manual, and 70 plus bucks for just one module, that's quite a price tag.
So, they are releasing ASL Starter KIts (finally) as an enticement at a much more user friendly introductory price tag.

It isn't free. But it is at least complete, and it is at least not requiring any other components from here or there.
You can't play real ASL with it, you can only experience ASL with it. The Starter kits are really just what they are, demos, teaching aids, informative tools. A sample of the game nothing more.

Would anyone here willingly spemd 10 bucks on a custom download of a purpose made demo of War in the Pacific? A game that is complete runs complete is not a busted copy of the real deal, just a game using the same basic style as the real thing?

I am NOT talking about the real game, I AM talking about something that was intentionally and deliberately made in tandem with the full game.
Something that actually runs on code that was made just for this purpose ie forget going online to find some jerk's crack to unlock the demo and provide a free functioning copy.

And no, don't tell me it can't be done. Every single program out there "couldn't be done" 5-10 years ago. It hadn't be done before till someone decided they didn't like that fact.

Demos can be handy, but often a game is just to complex to really allow it.

War in the Pacific could easy use something like a specific historical battle though, to demo the basic nature of the design. Releasing something like the Battle of Midway, where the demo has nothing but the Battle of Midway, but done in the same manner the full program uses to illustrate the full program, without being the full program.

And yes, I know, software hackers are an ingenius lot. No one said life was fair, or ever was going to be fair.
That's why the makers of software for sale, need to be constantly thinking.
You snooze you lose.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
Would anyone here willingly spemd 10 bucks on a custom download of a purpose made demo of War in the Pacific? A game that is complete runs complete is not a busted copy of the real deal, just a game using the same basic style as the real thing?

I am NOT talking about the real game, I AM talking about something that was intentionally and deliberately made in tandem with the full game.
Something that actually runs on code that was made just for this purpose ie forget going online to find some jerk's crack to unlock the demo and provide a free functioning copy.

And no, don't tell me it can't be done. Every single program out there "couldn't be done" 5-10 years ago. It hadn't be done before till someone decided they didn't like that fact.

Generally, demanding money for a PC demo would have you dragged off to a padded room for monitoring.

Secondly, I admire your stubborn refusal to look facts in the face, and I won't tell you it can't be done, but if it can be done it will cost almost as much as the game does to develop.

Aside from that....brilliant idea [8|]

There are ways to demo games. Matrix apparently choses not to indulge in them, why that means that some new 'almost game' needs to be developed is quite beyond me.

Demos can be handy, but often a game is just to complex to really allow it.

War in the Pacific could easy use something like a specific historical battle though, to demo the basic nature of the design. Releasing something like the Battle of Midway, where the demo has nothing but the Battle of Midway, but done in the same manner the full program uses to illustrate the full program, without being the full program.

This is quite typically done. You can demo Combat Mission, Danger Forward, Spartan and a host of other strategy/war games. This tech is neither unavailable or unused.

[Hexed Gamer]

Your points are well taken dinsdale

Marketing is not always bright or spot on hehe.

If I had a dollar for every "dumb" idea I have seen where marketing is concerned, man I would be some rich hehe.

[ravinhood]

I don't know about you guys, but, where I live when DOOM the origional first came out, they were selling the DEMO for $9.99. lol Software etc. and Babbages both. Now, I don't know how many copies they sold, but, I guess sometimes it is viable to charge a fee for a demo. $10 is a lil extreme though and the price did come down after a reasonable time to like $1.99

I guess it all boils down to "it's just business" survival of the company outweighs or tries to balance customer satisfaction with product and price. That's pretty much the business way.

To me it's the reason Matrix, HPS, Shrapnel have gone to direct sales, at a loss of customer satisfaction, they are making "more" money. Instead of making $2-$3 a copy on the retail shelves, they are most likely making $20 a copy by direct sales if not more, so they can give up around (6) unhappy customers and still make about the same as going retail. So in essence we don't really matter, as long as a handful continue to buy their games this way.

I remember a time when selling 10,000 copies of a wargame was a success, Dave Landrey told me this. Today, well, I have no idea how many they need to sell for it to be a success. I'm sure things have gone up all around.

Just reading about how much it takes now to launch a MMORPG, 30 MILLION dollars!!!!! 30 flippin MILLON dollars, do you know what I would do if I had 30 million dollars? LOL I wouldn't be launching any MMORPG! I recently read that in a Computer Strategy Gaming magazine. And was reading that Warhammer online and Ultima XO are now defunct, because of the cost to launch a mmorpg.

I still think though if Matrix is going to this Direct Sales on a permanent basis then they still should offer a "boxed w/manual + CD" version of the game and put up a store for this type of purchase. Actually I don't really care about the BOX, I can settle for a sandwich baggie with a MANUAL and a CD in it. I don't mind paying the price (if the price is reasonable and not just gouging me), if I am getting what "I want" to pay for.

With the advent of Ebay and the likes of Amazon.com, it's becoming easier and easier to hold out on extreme high prices on just about anything anymore. They are both like giant garage sales online. Does this hurt the industry? Does this drive prices up? Most likely it will eventually, if everyone gets of alike mind that waiting means savings.

I also still think a computer wargame every 3 or 4 months with a magazine like S&T would be a neat feature into the computer wargaming market. Create or use a well refined engine and churn out a good wargame every 3 or 4 months. I'm surprised HPS has never done this, but, then again I don't know how long it takes them to churn out a game. I know, I'd finally get to play some of those wargames I've never played from the S&T magazines if they were on computer. I just don't like to "punch" my games from these magazines.

Anyways, while we have been chatting, has the price for WitP gone down yet? lol Didn't think so.

[Hexed Gamer]

I might not mind a "subscription to S&T if as you said, they also inserted a cd with some useful wargames or wargame based options.

But then again, I have to remember, I have a personal distaste for getting a cd that was shipped with a magazine (bad experience).

[Fred98]

- Firstly you pay for the game and download it.
- Secondly if you want it on CD you must pay for the burning and the mailing
- Thirdly, if you want a professionally printed and bound copy of the manual you pay extra for that too.


This is what the internet is good at! You, the consumer has choice! It’s a dream come true! Any complaints must be directed to the 19th century brains trust!

ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

Well just name a game that will last you the next 5 to ten years

In the 21st century this is no longer the case. Windows is not DOS. Upgrade to the next version of Windows, and WITP probably will not run.

Upgrade your graphics card and WITP probably will not run.
-

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

It is not the price tag that is the key, it is market awareness.

That’s correct. And as for wargames, market awareness comes from visiting wargaming websites and reading gaming magazines and wargaming magazines. Not from visiting a shop that sells Monoply

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I am in demographic terms an impulse buyer. I am the reason store aisles are designed the way they are

So, its your fault.

But that’s no bad because you keep the economy moving. Some of us walk in through a poor store lay out with our eyes closed because I know exactly where the correct shelf is.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I am not saying buying online is bad wrong or the poor choice. It is just not an effective way to sell to me.

If you are a wargamer, you are already sold before the game is released.

And you cannot judge a game by it’s box art.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

It is the selling the next game that is tricky.

Yes very good point. I really enjoy UV. But I will not get WITP simply because it takes sooo long to play a turn. I am currently up to my neck in great wargames and if I take on another, then I will not have the time to play them properly – and not enjoy myself.

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

I probably fall into a minority of jaded game buyers, but after averaging about a game a month last year, I've bought a grand total of two this year.

Most games are silly. That’s why you are jaded. Stick to thinking games – stick to wargames – and you will not become jaded.


And to finish: You cannot persuade the public to buy wargames. They are not interested. Rather, there will be people, who would love to play wargames, but they do not know they exist. As a result they do not go searching online for wargaming sites.

These people will be playing PC versions of “toy soldiers in the sand box”. They need to be found

[ravinhood]

These people will be playing PC versions of “toy soldiers in the sand box”. They need to be found

Wonder why someone hasn't made a game like that, where you throw firecrackers at them and shoot them with a rubber band wooden pistol gun? Then bury them in your sandbox and never see them again until years later when grass has grown up in your old sandbox and you are mowing and out flies something sorta lime green looking. heh

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

BOXED, Retail software in stores is likely selling with a $5 to $10 tacked on price for the average losses to shoplifting, so That $40 game may include a $5-10 markup in its price to cover such losses and also to cover the anti-shoplifting costs!!

You just proved my point, thank you. Software is marked up to pay the costs of piracy, you said it yourself.

And lemme tell yah I worked retail for 20 years, so don't give me any speeches on markups and why, yes, I know very well about the 2% shoplifting projections in businesses. That's not my point, the point is, software( and other items) are marked UP to the honest consumer BECAUSE of THEFT and PIRACY! My whole point exactly, honest consumers pay for piracy.

So why complain?

It is something that is done, complaining of it will not do anything,
so why in first place moan about such?

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

But I cant help wonder: if I, who like both DOOM type of games as well as HoI and Korsun is interested in WitP, I am sure many others are as well. And many of them wont buy the game because they either do not hear about it, or think it too much $ for the trouble. We really don't care much if the game last 100 years, as there are always something as lucrative out there, easier to get and/or cheaper.

JT

Well, I'd not think of Doom as being in same genre as WITP,
if you like a massive game, one also which allows you to create mods of own, one with plenty of replay value, one that will keep you busy playing it, witp will be what want.

But if someones looking for a Wargame where they can sit and play the war out in a few hrs or couple days, witp isn't likely suitable for such, witp is like BTR, a game played for days on end...

You do however with witp have the ability via editor of creating scenarios that play out in a short time, it maybe possiable setup a scenario for a certain short period of play.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

The upcoming service 2 from Mickysoft will be around I believe 80 MB

The full thing is 266mb .

266mb only if installing for things like network, where company upgrades a bunch of PC at once.

The single home users will vary dependent on whats needed to be upgraded, 80MB is the figure for average single PC users, which can vary dependent on likely how many other past upgrades/patchs for SP1 were already applied.

I do wonder how many new bugs and problems it will create for
users... how many applications will need to have patchs put out, how many applications may no longer run...

Oh boy is it going to be fun.... NOT!

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

- Firstly you pay for the game and download it.
- Secondly if you want it on CD you must pay for the burning and the mailing
- Thirdly, if you want a professionally printed and bound copy of the manual you pay extra for that too.


This is what the internet is good at! You, the consumer has choice! It’s a dream come true! Any complaints must be directed to the 19th century brains trust!

In the 21st century this is no longer the case. Windows is not DOS. Upgrade to the next version of Windows, and WITP probably will not run.

Upgrade your graphics card and WITP probably will not run.

Things are evolving, due to technology.

Unless of course the nuts in congress mess up, after all theres some
bills being pushed that would make some normal legal things illegal... I'll not get into that but back to evolving technology:

Theres more Ebooks getting "published" and in part its due to Ipod and other such devices, so theres going to be more "digital" products and more then likely online buying and online sales instead of old shelved, boxed products.

A certain Sci Fic series was finished via ebook, as Paperbacks continue to go up in prices its likely more ebook versions will appear and at a lesser cost then the paper

So comparing that to software...it is quite likely more software will be digital bought with any "hard copy" sold at a higher price (I could get the book I bought as an ebook as a printed version...at a $17 cost vs the digital ebook price of $7 for example)

So Digital downloading especially as more connect via fast access
is likely to become the major way to buy with any boxed/hard copys at extra cost..

Btw why say WITP will not run if upgrade to next windows version? Or upgrade Video card?

It is a Windows program, unless the videocard doesn't support the
graphics used or a new windows o/s in future doesn't support XP run applications I don't see that...

As to DOS.. I run under Xp alot of DOS programs still,
Pacwar, WIR, and a number of others, however for some older DOS they don't run due to often cause newer videocards don't support the older EGA graphics and in cases the older VGA

WITP will likely be running for somne time in future, even in newer O/S if the newer O/S supports win32 bit programs.