Battles In Normandy Goes Gold!

[Farfarer61]

Excellent reply - and an insight into the Business End of things. We don't need nother Avalon Hill (RIP) or S+T (RIP) implosion.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

But the game if it is worth 60 is probably worth 70 or 80 as well. The only thing Matrix Games is dealing with here, is spoiled gamers that think every friggin game from whack a mole to cutting edge simulations should never exceed the magical sum of 40 bucks.

That is patently ludicruous.

To the $60 whiners, decide if you are really wargamers please. If you can't hack the hobby, pick another hobby.

Most of us have a maximum price we will pay for a game, which will be proportional to how much we want it - which is not necessarily the same thing as how "good" it is, let alone how "hardcore" it is. For example, I would pay considerably more for CotA (I adore HTTR) than I would for WitP (I have UV, but never really got in to it). BIN is somewhere in the middle, and I may or may not buy it - that will probably depend if I'm foolish enough to surf to the Matrix site after I've had a couple of Martinis [:D] That aside, if CotA was $100 I wouldn't buy it. If WitP was $35 I would buy it.

Matrix have to balance copies sold against profit on each copy for the best baseline figure... if that prices me out of a particular game so be it, I have no problem with that.

[Paul Vebber]

The whole thing is very "co-adaptive" - We have to price things based on what goes into making the game. AS you point out, gamers have individual price points for games based on thier interest and perceived value.

Success occurs if we as teh producer can adapt our allocation of resources to subjectmatter that has enough people willing to buy at the resulting price point to make the game a "success".

The result of a mismatch is not to simply reduce the price of the game, but to reduce the resources allocated to that subject matter in the future. You don;t get "hig priced games cheaper" - you get less intensely resourced games (or none at all) where the price point and demand dictate.

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

To the $60 whiners, decide if you are really wargamers please. If you can't hack the hobby, pick another hobby.

Listen "Pal", I'm 62 years old and have been wargaming while you were still in diapers. I've been into board games and computer games when they first became available. If I decide that $60 for a "Game" is more than I'm willing to spend, that is my business. If SSG and Matrix want to charge X amount of dollars for their games, that is there business. Don't question my choice of hobbies.

I hope that they sell a lot of copies and make lots of profit. The guys at SSG are pretty good bunch of people and they deserve to be rewarded. It's just my choice that I choose not to spend that amount of money on a "Game"

[Hexed Gamer]

With that attitude I likely don't WANT to be your "pal".

As for your age, well considering that I was there at the beginning of commercial board gaming wargaming too, what does your age have to do with it?

I will add, if you can't hack my opinion, then stop reading them as well.

[Kevinugly]

Girls, please kiss and make up[;)], we're all here to help Matrix and their developers make a success of their business.[:D]

[2gaulle]

that's crasy! normaly we must be very happy, only 3 days before the release of Normandy. what's the problem. nothing unless a non respect of what was writen one month ago. nothing important 10 bucks, it's only that customer couln'd be confident. that's the new world, far away from what I learned 20 years ago. Paul, next time don't define a policy if you are not ready to follow it.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

Paul I do not appreciate your answerd at all.

more your increase your price, less you will have customer. that's a basic concept in economy.

Good old 'elasticity of demand'. As I'm sure you're aware, less sales does not necessarily equal lower profits or even lower turnover. If Matrix have judged the price point successfully then the 20% rise in price (if we can look at it this way) should result in a smaller percentage drop in sales. This gives a better 'marginal profit' on each item.

Exactly, look at luxury lables like for example Lotus cars. Do they sell as much ay Toyota? No. Do they still produce? Yes.

Now before some beancounter comes and tells me that Lotus is owned by some other big company that funds them, don´t dare, I give you another example of low sales percentages but an income that keeps them alive to produce products. [;)]

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

that's crasy! normaly we must be very happy, only 3 days before the release of Normandy. what's the problem. nothing unless a non respect of what was writen one month ago. nothing important 10 bucks, it's only that customer couln'd be confident. that's the new world, far away from what I learned 20 years ago. Paul, next time don't define a policy if you are not ready to follow it.

You know, actually lot of people are very happy it´s only a few days away.

[stevel40831]

Let's see....

1. Sponsoring a low-budget cookout at my house that last 4-6 hrs - $200.00+ [8D]

2. Getting my dog cleaned up after getting sprayed by a skunk - $125.00 [:@]

3. An old WWI map on Ebay - $75.00 [&:]

4. Two packages of steak tips from the grocery store - $60.00 (good tips!) [:)]

5. Two fill-ups at the local gas station - $60.00

6. Four cans of ceiling paint - $60.00 [:(]

7. Dinner out with my wife, 2 drinks each - $80.00 (she won't finish her 2nd drink...) [:)]

8. "Loaning" [8|] my sister a few bucks $____.__, fill in the blank!

9. Two crappy wargames from wanna-be wargame companies that I'll only play for a few hours because the AI is horrible and PBEM opponents don't finish games because the game sucks - $80.00 [:-] (Done this too many times over!)

10. A finely polished game engine which lets me relive one of the most important battles of the 20th century for many, many, many (did I say "many"?) hours against fine opponents from all over the world, and, oh, did I mention endless add-on scenarios that I won't be able to play as much as I'd like because I don't have enough spare time?? Let's say it all together... "priceless". Thank you SSG!! [&o] [&o] [&o] [&o]

We all have to make choices... here are mine in response to my own financial "events" above:

1. Instead of steaks and beer, we'll have hotdogs and koolaid... this will save me MORE money in the long run because no one will want to come next time! 2. Wear a clothes pin on my nose, and, he can sleep on my wifes side of the bed. 3. What the hell did I buy that for anyway?!?!??!!?!? 4. Hamburgers are good too.... and, they take up less space in the freezer! 5. If I fix that flat tire on my bike.... 6. It really doesn't look that bad. 7. With all the money I'm saving on the first 6 items I think I'll go ahead and do this anyway! 8. What do I have, rocks in my head? 9. I've finally learned my lesson... 10. Where do I pay??

There, said my piece about the money!

In all seriousness... here's my only concern about Digital Download... if I hadn't seen KP in a store last year I wouldn't have known it existed. This is now the ONLY game I play because it's so damned good. I play 3-4 PBEM turns per night and shudder to think of what I'd be missing out on if I hadn't picked this game up and got involved with all the great people and/or opponents at Run5. I am concerned that there are many out there who would buy this game from a store shelf (and get involved in this great hobby) because it's "D-Day" but will never hear about it unless they bumble into it somehow on the internet (KP may not have been a great seller retail-wise because it's not a well known battle to the general public). I completely understand SSGs point about the need to make money and their reasons for not wanting to get bent over the table by retail stores. No doubt they've weighed this fact and decided it wasn't worth it. If this is the bottom line, so be it. I'll do my part to support this great company, I hope they are able to put out many more games in the future, and I hope they make lots of money on this game.

P.S. My wallet is stationed next to my keyboard and my credit card is already half way out to speed up ordering time... I have cancelled all yard work, weekend get-togethers with the family for the next 2 months, and have managed to save a few "sick" days.... I'm ready!

[Hexed Gamer]

stevel40831, here's your gold star for an excellent post

My gold's stars ain't worth much really, but I want you to have it anyway hehe.

I just witnessed the merging of Armchair General with Warfare HQ the other day, and a more pleasing experience I have not had all summer. Great history forums. Great Wargames forums. Models and other secondary but linked hobbies forums. And all the usual sub forums that our wargamer type forums possess.

All they are missing is they don't have any wargames for sale eh.

David I am serious, aaaaaaabsolutely serious. You really want to give the staff over there a long chat about you guys discovering some sort of common interest mutual benefit arrangement.

I am not talking mega merge, I don't want a merge, it's just that you've got the games, and they have the forums that have the magazine, that has the shelf presence, that has the physical real world exposure that is not limited to the internet.

I am not saying they will answer all your dreams. But they are also NOT a PC Magazine pandering to every game on the planet. They are wargamers for wargamers and not about games that are not about wargaming. If I want a review about a wargame, I want it from a real wargamer that makes it a point to establish they are wargamers first and last.

(and yes I know about Wargamer, the less said the better, not going there, let's just say I will be picking Warfare HQ and leave it at that).

And, as well as a very big "and", they have the magazine, they are out there in retail land where it counts.

Maybe you scratch their back and they can scratch yours sort of thing.

If I had a dollar for every time someone said "never heard of them before", for both YOU and THEM, I would not have any grief affording my next Matrix Games title eh.

You guys really COULD use each other.

Really.

[Paul Vebber]

WE've been giving out Armchair General mags when we go to Cons. Don;t worry we have been talking to them = I think since before their first issue even came out.

We have their interactive preview on most of our game CD's. i think the new games may even have a link to theior website on the game menu??? Maybe that one didn't happne (Yet??)...

Anyway, to the limits of what is considered "good taste" between a game company and a mag that may review their wares , mutual backscratching has pretty much occured.

A great bunch and what I think will be the "next generation" mil history/gaming magazine out there.

a "must have"...

[aysi]

great post Steve,just worked out the conversion rate to aussie dollars and it comes up 87.00 big ones,well like a lot of you guys i have been wargameing for some time and seems to me i have been paying that or close to that for a board game since the mid 80s and not one not even ASL gets played like this game.

If anyone has seen the decline in this hobby(dont sell games in Napoleans anymore even) stupid fantasy and real time games that resemble history as much as i look like Brad Pitt,should realize that these games are for a small market and if you want it ...well you are going to have to pay for it.I have payed so much more for a game and played it once or twice at most,I think i payed the same for the first civilisation game for the mac and could not even play it.

So i dont think Iam getting ripped off,because this game is going to get a flogging.I might get it down to less than a dollar an hour

[stevel40831]

So i dont think Iam getting ripped off,because this game is going to get a flogging.I might get it down to less than a dollar an hour

Aysi, It looks like part of your posting got deleted... I assume your post was meant to be "I might get it down to less than a dollar an hour in the first week"!

Hey... if you have time to post messages here it means you're neglecting our Wolf By The Ears game!!

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

WE've been giving out Armchair General mags when we go to Cons. Don;t worry we have been talking to them = I think since before their first issue even came out.

We have their interactive preview on most of our game CD's. i think the new games may even have a link to theior website on the game menu??? Maybe that one didn't happne (Yet??)...

Anyway, to the limits of what is considered "good taste" between a game company and a mag that may review their wares , mutual backscratching has pretty much occured.

A great bunch and what I think will be the "next generation" mil history/gaming magazine out there.

a "must have"...

Yes, our coop with ACGM is very close. We have 1 - 2 adds per magazine , we give out their magazines at Conventions. It´s a very close and succesfull alliance [;)]

We do advertise in 4 or 5 major magazines each month. That is game , history and wargaming magazines.

[mbMike]

All poor people, please exit down the hall and go pick up a free copy of Steel Panthers. Wargaming is an expensive hobby for rich people.

k thx, bye.

[Adam Parker]

LOL! You knew this already or it's a revelation? Ever since the days of lead soldiers my friend. The peasants were the ones we used to tie up and shoot arows at with suction cups on the end in my mansion.

Let me recommend a good book for you (books and war games go together, you may know): "Normandy 1944: German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness" by Niklas Zetterling". There's another $36USD you'll need - and Amazon have 2 copies left. Great value imo.

Good things require investment.

[BrubakerII]

Wargaming at present is expensive, no denying that. But I have to back up Pterrok's thoughts here regarding value for money. I bought for full retail and loved Wolfenstein, MoH, Call of Duty, Fontline etc in the last few years. They too were expensive. I loved them a lot and played them to death but a month later they were simply a fond memory and a desire for the next incarnation.

Close Combat stayed on my HD for 3 years. I have been playing Korsun for more than 12 months. Any comparison of value for money speaks for itself.

Yes I am biased, how could I not be, but those who know me know I say what I think good, bad or otherwise. I have absolutely no financial gain to be made by these comments. This is what I think about BiN.

The whole BiN package is more pro than any SSG product to date. It is simply superb. In my opinion it is better than all other games of its type I have seen and played to date. Full stop. I think it is going to win a heap of awards and has the potential to break into new markets (ala Panzer General) which is sorely needed by the genre by the sound of it. It probably needs more pushing toward the mainstream by utilising such things as magazine reviews etc but hey who knows the marketing strategies planned? There are some excellent updates happening about the place on the most popular scenarios from previous incarnations which means the game will have ALL of its scenarios playable under the new system. And of course you have direct access to the designers through various means. And they listen...

Do I think you should go out and buy it? Well that is a personal choice. If you can't afford it then don't, I don't want to see your family starve. But if you can afford it and are thinking it might be okay, then do it. It is an extremely rewarding system that keeps offering up new challenges to even the most seasoned player, has an evergrowing community of die hards scenario designers and email players, and is one of the few games on your machine that will have you rushing home from work or getting up a half hour early in the morning just to see if your opponent's latest turn has arrived.

If you liked Korsun then you are going to love BiN - its as simple as that... I look forward to beating (and being beaten) by you all over at Run5.



PS: oh, and tank counters don't bunny hop...

[Hexed Gamer]

Wargaming at present is expensive

WTF!! ??

Heheheh god I am glad I wasn't drinking anything.

Quite the contrary. Wargaming today is both cheap easy convenient simple. No need for expensive magazine subscriptions that never arrive timely.

With the purchase of the right game, you can defacto make some expensive board game potentially unnecessary. One copy of The Operational Art of War can replace 100 copies of some of the finest board games out there. Why just the cost of a complete set of GDW's Europa series alone is worth the cost of TOAW at any price you find it at. And TOAW reaches out and replaces every WW3 hypothetical offering that was made from the 70s through the 80s.

Steel Panthers can match an entire ASL collection.

War in the Pacific at 92 bucks Canadian is not easy for me, simply because 92 bucks is still 92 bucks.

But wargaming today is CHEAP. The only reason people have for whining their damned computer game is more than 35-40 bucks, is a love of whining, and a conditioning that all wargames should cost the same as all the kiddie grade tripe masquerading as real wargames costs.

When you think your computer game is expensive, check out the current cost of A World at War. No not Gary's game the real A World at War by the creators of it's originator design Third Reich. http://www.aworldatwar.com/ 175.00 US and they are not one bit sympathetic if you don't like the price

Or perhaps assess a full set of ASL some time (actually I am afraid to know myself, or I would tell you). Just assume 500.00 US is NOT enough to buy something equal to my collection of ASL.

The real secret of board games, the reason guys love em, is one simple truth you CAN'T say about computer wargames. You don't need to upgrade anything to play one, ever, and you will NEVER need to upgrade ANYhting to run one ever.

One of the greatest myths out there, is you can't sell a computer wargame if it isn't using the latest generation computer hardware technology. In reality, you can't sell the latest computer hardware and technology if no one needs it.

There is no reason wargame designers can't make and CONTINUE to make good wargames based on tried and tested technology, they just don't want to in all cases.

The idea you need bells and whistles to entice the sucker consumer is folly.

Still waiting on say Combat Leader, have been for a good while now. If it is just taking time to finis, that won't be a set back for ever. If they release it though, and my upgrade video card turns out to be no longer enough on release date, I won't likely be buying the game.

Not all of us buy upgrades to play the latest bells and whistles out of a sense of justification for having bought the hardware.

Any wargame for computer made properly and priced under 100 bucks US has not actually entered the realm of "expensive". Try adding a zero to that number maybe.

[2gaulle]

Any wargame for computer made properly and priced under 100 bucks US has not actually entered the realm of "expensive". Try adding a zero to that number maybe.

you could said what you want, but since Bin have been gold we only speack about it's price

When you think your computer game is expensive, check out the current cost of A World at War. No not Gary's game the real A World at War by the creators of it's originator design Third Reich. http://www.aworldatwar.com/ 175.00 US and they are not one bit sympathetic if you don't like the price

boardgaming bussness is certainly not a exemple to follow. each year there are less player, speacialy in North America. In france with Vae Victis the situation is better, certainly because you could find it anywhere. each 2 month there are 40.000 Vae victis sold.

to consider wargame only for an elite of Dinausor is the best way to kill the hobby.

The whole BiN package is more pro than any SSG product to date. It is simply superb. In my opinion it is better than all other games of its type I have seen and played to date. Full stop. I think it is going to win a heap of awards and has the potential to break into new markets (ala Panzer General) which is sorely needed by the genre by the sound of it. It probably needs more pushing toward the mainstream by utilising such things as magazine reviews etc but hey who knows the marketing strategies planned?

You are certainly right, Bin have a lot of potential. Unfortunatly it have the wrong price and the minimin services for distribution. That why I'm not happy.