My conclusions on game balance

[SeaMonkey]

I would like to offer a fix for "the squeeze" and its historical. Call it the "Siberian Transfer". After providing for a more historical OOB for USSR eastern deployments, simply keep them frozen unless activated. The activation trigger, other than the Japanese attack, could be something like when the Germans conquer a certain territory or have a certain number of units deployed in USSR, and only occurs in the next winter turn. The developers need to keep the exact trigger formulations to themselves.

The Siberian units exact OOB could be unknown and subject to a bit of randomness, depending on the time frame. Once the trigger occurs and depending upon the origin of the trigger, the units could simply appear at a prearranged deployment region(s), with some randomness for an alternative site arrival. It worked for SC.

[Drax Kramer]

I don't see where is the problem with giving Russians their historical forces and work from there.

If Russian player redeploys their Far Eastern garrison to the west to help fend off German assault, he should do this in full knowledge that he has just left his Far Eastern butt opened to Japanese.

If this makes German job tougher in Russia so be it. After all, Germans did lose in Russia and their 1941 and 1942 campaigns decisevely failed prior to massive Lend Lease contributions to USSR. German captures of Leningrad, Moscow or Rostov in 1941 should be rare events given two equally skilled opponents (which OKH and STAVKA were not, historically).

Factory in Vladivostok should stay where it is, because it stands for Soviet shipyards there. Where is the Soviet Light Fleet representing Soviet Pacific Fleet? If Dutch two light cruisers and destroyer deployed at home in May 1940 warrant for Light Fleet unit, Soviet Pacific Fleet should be on the map too.

However, addition of one factory to Irkutsk (or transfer of one of the existing ones) could be tried.


Drax

[hakon]

Moving a factory from, say, Kazan, to Irkutsk would probably more or less solve the problem. 4 inf, 2mil in built irkutsk comined with 1 armor, 1 art and 1 flak 2mil in vladivostok before summer 41 would probably stop Japan from even trying an invasion in most games, or at least force them to give up chinese resources to attack russia.

[Basilhare]

have to pile on to the balance question.....First game overwhelming Axis victory...UK falls easily....German high tech subs rule the waves by '41...UK falls by 41....two pronged gemran/jap invasion of USSR dooms allies....Allies dead by early '44.....Germans use all tank and all sub strategy...super tanks/super subs.....shut out any chance of counterattacks...cant inflict damage....many lessons learned...make a number of early game mistakes....gear up for game #2

Game 2 vs same axis opponent:

Do a much better job at early game tech and builds...USSR goes all tanks strategy....UK builds only fighters/inf/art.....Germans go all out w/ sub tech...wear down the UK fleet in 1940....fall 40, stack of 6 german killer subs send remainder of UK fleet to the bottom w/ no losses...scotland invaded.....UK falls next turn...two prong invasion of soviet union.....in the middle of this game...winter 41...soviets doing better w/ all tank strategy.....we'll see....

Comments: Loosing UK seems certain if the playing a good German player....Two pronged invasion of USSR seems forever certain under current system....a good axis player will always do this and keep US out of the war 'till w 1943.....having at least a random chance for US entry might help....basilhare

[MarcelJV]

Can I assume that most Axis victories come at the expense of UK home islands? If so then the problem may not be the Soviet Union, but the inability for the WA to counter attack effectively at the German industry thus preventing a AV. Seems to me that allot of Axis victories are the result of the capture of the UK, given this we should take some time to test out good allied strategies to counter this situation, and only if we all agree there seems to be no solution to preventing a Good Axis player from winning then we look to change the balance of the game. This should also been done for the Soviet Union. We should then test these strategies and come back and review the results.

If we agree then lets start that discussion and work to testing the results. I do not believe the game is flawed at this point.

[hakon]

Loosing your fleet in 1940 mean that you have underestimated the subs, as subs dont get their 3/3 status until after Fa40, at the earliest. Dont spread your fleet too thin. Wi41 is the most dangerous turn, as during that turn, the subs will have a tech lead (you typically catch up at the end of that turn).

English fleet should stay out of the med until you are certain that germany will not be very agressive. At all times, you should have more heavy fleets than germany, and more light fleets than germany has subs, and no areas with weak fleets should be exposed to a strong german comined attack with air/fleet/subs. Better to _not_ escort your fleet, than to let germany get strong attacks vs your main fleets. Playing conservatively, your starting transports should last until american manpower enters the war.

Btw, I think subs are much too strong vs heavy and light fleets (it is very hard for a sub to effectively attack surface ships at sea, due to the very limted speed of the sub compared to even the cruise speed of the surface ship), and probably a little too weak vs transports (subs should be able to stay at sea at the end of their turn, if their evasion matches the allied ASW, hostorically they could reach all of the atlantic, not just seazones within 2 areas of france.) But in terms of game balance, it is not such a huge problem.

I have written a pretty long thread about the defence of england in another thread.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

Can I assume that most Axis victories come at the expense of UK home islands?

Not at all. I almost never attack UK (unless it's left totally open), and all of my Axis opponents (except one) avoid attacking UK as well.

O.

[hakon]

Marcel: Preventing automatic victory for the axis, is about keeping the number of resources that the axis controls below 70. Taking out england doesnt capture very many resources, while taking out the Caucasus helps very much. I think double-hitting russia is a better way to get a lot of resources than hitting england.

The advantage of taking out england, is to reduce allied production, especially during the early years, increasing the probability that germany is still in good shape in 46. If the UK defends well, they should be able to hold out until 42 (i hope), in which case the campaign against russia should be very limited, and russia (if able to guess that), should have a tech lead over the axis in ground units.

Of course, if the UK falls in early 41 or even 40 (due to some UK mistake), it should really be more or less game over, as the axis can regroup and still hit Russia very hard in spring 42.

[MarcelJV]

I may be a bit slow, but if you do not take the UK, or very much of the Soviet Union where do all the resources come from that you need for auto victory?[&:]

[MarcelJV]

Thanks Hakon, my assumption with the lose of the UK was that the allies would not be able to bomb Germany continueally and thus reducing the factories and resources the Germans could use thus helping to prevent the auto victory and reducing total German build opportunity, not to mention lots of supply expenditure.

If you say that the capture of the UK does not matter to an Axis victory then if the allies can provide a bomber force to bomb with and tech up evasion on heavy bombers they should be able to reduce German effectiveness in pressing the Soviet Union, but this would still take time to work out and would not be total effective until some time in 42.

Do you agree?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

I may be a bit slow, but if you do not take the UK, or very much of the Soviet Union where do all the resources come from that you need for auto victory?[&:]

Neutrals, Middle East, China, DEI.... some Russia. I already said in my opinion 70 is too easy to get, so in my mod I raised the bar to 72 which I think may still be too low.

Check out this final screenshot from a PBEM. No attack on UK, Russia barely attacked in border provinces, check out the PP value and game date. I usually stop at 70 because there's no point going further than that - game will automatically stop anyway.

O.

[hakon]

Marcel: I dont think building heavy bombers is the way to stop an auto victory. (Dont really remember if you have to hold those 70 for a turn, or if you get the win as soon as you repair enough to reach 70) They can however kill a lot of units and production, limiting the amount of land that the axis is able to take/hold.

[MarcelJV]

Very impressive[8D], and to think I have always fought my way through most of the Soviet Union to get to the resources. I should do a better job of counting resouces.[:(]

It would seem that you have done this without much combat with the Soviets. It would also look like you attacked the Soviets at the last moment to collect the resources you needed to win. Very analytical of you. [:D]

Was this against a person or the AI?

Looks to me from the map that the WA were the weak link in this game. Which leads me back to needing to find good strategies to stop or slow aggressive Germans against the WA.

[hakon]

Oleg :The screenshot is very convincing. Did Germany produce any additional factories, btw?

[daskomodo]

Looking at that map, anyone can pull that off vs the AI, since it hardly puts up any defense for the Middle-East or Spain.

If you were playing a human player, what the heck was he doing? Probably building useless bombers I bet.

Seriously, Oleg, can you recall what the Allied strategy was in that game?

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

Very impressive[8D], and to think I have always fought my way through most of the Soviet Union to get to the resources. I should do a better job of counting resouces.[:(]

It would seem that you have done this without much combat with the Soviets. It would also look like you attacked the Soviets at the last moment to collect the resources you needed to win. Very analytical of you. [:D]

Was this against a person or the AI?

Looks to me from the map that the WA were the weak link in this game. Which leads me back to needing to find good strategies to stop or slow aggressive Germans against the WA.

Everyone should read excellent posts by "daskomodo" on the War room board, about managing resources.

Combat vs. Soviets in this game was done only in Kiev province, on the last turn I attacked there, repaired all three resources. As final tally of 75 PPs shows, I didn't even need those 3 res to win. When I attacked Kiev I knew I will get 10-12 PP as Japanese, and the game will end then and there so I didn't even care to play the German turn "properly", with further attacks on SU. Molotov was already offering me the favorable terms, and I got news Churchill was ousted in UK, and new goverment is ready to begin peace talks [:D]

Japan then attacked in the DEI, boosting its production from 15 to 26 in a single turn, and I guess US public, wihtout PH, decided not to go to war over some UK and Dutch collonial possesions [:D]

This was in a PBEM.

O.

[hakon]

Daskomodo : If Germany builds a lot of air forces and subs and threatens witha a sealion, there is very little the allies can do against the above strat, without loosing the UK in 41. Pulling off the above result, dont require you to build _anything_ vs russia, so all your production can go agains england, against whom you will be superior untill the US enters. This gives you room to spread out into the middle east, iberia and scandinavia.

Japan has an even easier job. Taking out china is easy if you dont have to worry about teching your fleet. (just pump infantry and push).

Then you DOW russia and the US on the same turn, and take kiev and NEI, and the game is over.

[MarcelJV]

ORIGINAL: hakon

Marcel: I dont think building heavy bombers is the way to stop an auto victory. (Dont really remember if you have to hold those 70 for a turn, or if you get the win as soon as you repair enough to reach 70) They can however kill a lot of units and production, limiting the amount of land that the axis is able to take/hold.

I do not know if you need to but another thread showed how teched up Heavy Bombers caused havoc with the German production, and another AAR showed how to cripple the Soviet Economy using Heavy bomber to hit factories. All of this will make it hard to get to the 70 magic point mark, but you need to make it so that the Axis can not recover to 70 points at any point in their turn or it is a mute point.

I thought AV was a production of 70 points at the end of a movement phase, should be end of game turn not player turn.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: hakon

Oleg :The screenshot is very convincing. Did Germany produce any additional factories, btw?

One additional factory in CS, and IIRC it DID help to reach this score. I would have to check, but I think without it PP would not be as high.

O.

[daskomodo]

If Germany builds a lot of air forces and subs and threatens witha a sealion, there is very little the allies can do against the above strat, without loosing the UK in 41

If Germany is building subs and air forces to threaten a sealion, I hardly see how they have the manpower to sweep up all of Europe and the Middle-East. What if the England builds tons of AA and artillery on the first couple of turns? Sealion isn't a threat without more German transports = less German infantry.