More Mortar Musings
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Penetrator per your concern about the effectiveness of mortars v artillery see the discussion in the link above for the US 81mm mortar ... they compare the various types of HE rounds with their equivalent effect to tube arty.
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Some additional thoughts and info :
Given the short range and basic design on the 46mm ,50mm, and 2 inch mortar .. particularly the the Japanese knee mortar .. I question the actual ability of these weapons to do true indirect fire . I base this on two primary considerations , 1) no sights suitable for indrect fire (unlike the US 60mm mortar), and 2) no mobile radio communications at the infantry platoon level to call for indirect fire, as well as no trained personel to call the indirect fire at platoon level.. I suspect from all I can reference, that aside from the US infantry platoons with hand held walkie talkies and actual training in calling indirect fire at the Platoon and squad leader level,..that with most nationalites that used these weapons,most of these weapon were primairly used as grenade launchers.. The Japanese knee mortar does not even have sights per se and the Polish 46mm is outright called a Grenade launcher .. something to look into .. I think we can continue to let them have indirect fire capability despite the lack of communication assets in most cases but the Japanese and Polish weapons need to be looked at , unless references to the contrary can be found.. at any rate some references on national doctrine...
http://www.poeland.com/tanks/artillery/doctrine.html
http://tigertank.com/aslcrossroads/tactical/arty.htm
also if you look at the panzerfaust link ( as well as the technical specs for the US mortars) in the above post you will see that the larger mortars ( 81mm and 120mm and 4,2 inch ,3 inch )are not accurately represented in the range department.. as it stands most medium mortars tend to be sort of standardized in range .. while in fact the 80,81,82 mm types had ranges that varied widely with the US and Russian 81 and 82 having about half again the range of the German mortar until very late in the war.
Given the short range and basic design on the 46mm ,50mm, and 2 inch mortar .. particularly the the Japanese knee mortar .. I question the actual ability of these weapons to do true indirect fire . I base this on two primary considerations , 1) no sights suitable for indrect fire (unlike the US 60mm mortar), and 2) no mobile radio communications at the infantry platoon level to call for indirect fire, as well as no trained personel to call the indirect fire at platoon level.. I suspect from all I can reference, that aside from the US infantry platoons with hand held walkie talkies and actual training in calling indirect fire at the Platoon and squad leader level,..that with most nationalites that used these weapons,most of these weapon were primairly used as grenade launchers.. The Japanese knee mortar does not even have sights per se and the Polish 46mm is outright called a Grenade launcher .. something to look into .. I think we can continue to let them have indirect fire capability despite the lack of communication assets in most cases but the Japanese and Polish weapons need to be looked at , unless references to the contrary can be found.. at any rate some references on national doctrine...
http://www.poeland.com/tanks/artillery/doctrine.html
http://tigertank.com/aslcrossroads/tactical/arty.htm
also if you look at the panzerfaust link ( as well as the technical specs for the US mortars) in the above post you will see that the larger mortars ( 81mm and 120mm and 4,2 inch ,3 inch )are not accurately represented in the range department.. as it stands most medium mortars tend to be sort of standardized in range .. while in fact the 80,81,82 mm types had ranges that varied widely with the US and Russian 81 and 82 having about half again the range of the German mortar until very late in the war.
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Changes needed in the US OOB are as follows
Unit # 109
Name 60mm M2 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 90 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Available Jan '40 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
This single 60mm Mortar Unit can fill the needs currently represented by Unit 109 and 110 However it will need smoke ammo to represent the WP capability of the weapon . It may be necesary to change the class on the 60mm to 05 Mortar to better reflect the weapons capability with smoke , but if that changes the 60mm as far as it being called by the Platoon leader .. then don't, skip the smoke instead , because it certainly shouldn't be available for general arty to FO's ect ... this maybe a game engine limit thing, I don't know .. in short it shoud have smoke (WP) but it should not be available for call outside the assigned company/platoon either. However it has been my experience that the Platoon leader only assignment function is not exactly working well so if that is still the case, then mabey the most accurate way to portray the weapon is changing it's class to have smoke .. any ideas anybody?
Unit #111
Name 60mm M19 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 Size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Avail Jan43 to end 49
Weapon #1 217 Ammo HE 60
Weapon @2 150 Ammo HE 60
Again this weapon will need smoke ammo to reflect the WP capabilty .. again possibly by changing class to 05 Mortar
Unit #110 can now be
Name 81mm Mortar
Class 05 Mortar
Crew 5 Size 1 ROF 7
Speed 4 Radio 90 Icon 67 lbm 57
Cost 42 Avail Jan '40 end 49
Weapon #1 056 Ammo HE 40
Weapon #2 150 Ammo HE 60
Unit #114
Name Arm Mortar Squad
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 8 Size 1 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 57
Cost 65 Avail Jan 42 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 80
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #3 226 Ammo HE 60
This unit will also need smoke to represent WP Ammo
Units #112 and # 113 are OK
Formations needing changing are
#1073 needs Unit #109 added
#1076 Needs Mortar section deleted
#1078 Needs Unit # 109 or #114 Added
#1079 Needs light Mortar sec deleted
#1081 should now have option for either #109 or #114 I think this is automatic
# 1086 needs to be deleted
#1122 needs to be changed to unit # 110
#1139 needs light mortar section deleted
This should put light mortars in the US Army Platoons at Platoon Level and remove them from Company Level Formations. Please note I changed the Rifle assignmets ( weapon #2) from single rifles to 3X Garands or Carbines, Hopefully this will better reflect the armament of the Troops. This maybe something that should be checked on all Nationalites
Unit # 109
Name 60mm M2 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 90 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Available Jan '40 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
This single 60mm Mortar Unit can fill the needs currently represented by Unit 109 and 110 However it will need smoke ammo to represent the WP capability of the weapon . It may be necesary to change the class on the 60mm to 05 Mortar to better reflect the weapons capability with smoke , but if that changes the 60mm as far as it being called by the Platoon leader .. then don't, skip the smoke instead , because it certainly shouldn't be available for general arty to FO's ect ... this maybe a game engine limit thing, I don't know .. in short it shoud have smoke (WP) but it should not be available for call outside the assigned company/platoon either. However it has been my experience that the Platoon leader only assignment function is not exactly working well so if that is still the case, then mabey the most accurate way to portray the weapon is changing it's class to have smoke .. any ideas anybody?
Unit #111
Name 60mm M19 Mortar Team
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 4 Size 0 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 56
Cost 35 Avail Jan43 to end 49
Weapon #1 217 Ammo HE 60
Weapon @2 150 Ammo HE 60
Again this weapon will need smoke ammo to reflect the WP capabilty .. again possibly by changing class to 05 Mortar
Unit #110 can now be
Name 81mm Mortar
Class 05 Mortar
Crew 5 Size 1 ROF 7
Speed 4 Radio 90 Icon 67 lbm 57
Cost 42 Avail Jan '40 end 49
Weapon #1 056 Ammo HE 40
Weapon #2 150 Ammo HE 60
Unit #114
Name Arm Mortar Squad
Class 80 Light Mortar
Crew 8 Size 1 ROF 9
Speed 8 Radio 91 Icon 66 lbm 57
Cost 65 Avail Jan 42 end'49
Weapon #1 030 Ammo HE 80
Weapon #2 226 Ammo HE 60
Weapon #3 226 Ammo HE 60
This unit will also need smoke to represent WP Ammo
Units #112 and # 113 are OK
Formations needing changing are
#1073 needs Unit #109 added
#1076 Needs Mortar section deleted
#1078 Needs Unit # 109 or #114 Added
#1079 Needs light Mortar sec deleted
#1081 should now have option for either #109 or #114 I think this is automatic
# 1086 needs to be deleted
#1122 needs to be changed to unit # 110
#1139 needs light mortar section deleted
This should put light mortars in the US Army Platoons at Platoon Level and remove them from Company Level Formations. Please note I changed the Rifle assignmets ( weapon #2) from single rifles to 3X Garands or Carbines, Hopefully this will better reflect the armament of the Troops. This maybe something that should be checked on all Nationalites
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
Had to take a day off after the Nationalist China OOB - still unsure what needs to happen there.
AmmoSgt - I see where that secondary infantry weapon x3 or x5 has been used in the Japanese light mortars in the v6.1 OOB - can someone explain to me how that works? How does it differ from a normal main infantry weapon in slot 3 or 4?
With regards to the calling in fire missions for light mortar units - I am pretty sure that formation leader restriction does not work. No matter where I attach the light mortar units it seems I can call them using any FO. If this function of the engine is no longer working and if smoke rounds for the US 60mm mortar were the common case in the WWII era, then moving the US 60mm mortar to the 05 - Mortar class makes sense.
The Korean war references for the US light mortars do seem to indicate that the 60mm mortar was often deployed to the platoon level - however I'm really unsure if it was common WWII practice. If it was common WWII practice, how common was it? Enough that it should be the default choice?
One thing in favor of single tube units is that it gives more freedom of choice to both scenario designers and players when it comes to recreating a historical or semi-historical force mix. However there are two other issues of importance:
#1 for light mortars used in the direct fire role, the grouping of multiple tubes into a single unit not only seems to reflect national doctrine for certain countries, but also is *apparently* more survivable in the game. I say apparently because I don't know of any comprehensive test data that supports this. Yet it is obvious from certain OOBs that others with some degree of knowledge about it considered it a worthwhile addition.
#2 for medium/heavy mortars used in the indirect fire role, single tube units are much more costly in C&C points when ordering fire missions. This can be somewhat mitigated by using the mortar units themselves to call in fire - but that doesn't help in the case where an FO is calling in fire missions on a point he has under observation.
I'm coming around to the belief that the 'default' case should be single tube per unit but some OOBs should have additional units (new ones if possible/necessary) to represent multi-tube units.
There is, however, one other possible representation that *may* be useful - perhaps batteries (but not sections) of medium and heavy mortars should be company formations with an FO as company commander and each two or three tube section in the battery as a platoon in the battery 'company'. This would give the battery FO's a larger store of C&C points - granted only a few extra points - but it, together with using the battery section leader's C&C points for calling fire missions - would help in this area at least for the initial call.
We're on the border of some areas concerning the overall artillery simulation in SP:WaW - when we start getting into doctrinal issues there are a number of changes that would be nice - however I'm not at all sure that any degree of real change in this respect is possible with the engine. I really think for any significant changes we'll need to wait for Combat Leader. Best we can do here is try to achieve small improvements without upsetting play balance.
Thanks,
Brian
AmmoSgt - I see where that secondary infantry weapon x3 or x5 has been used in the Japanese light mortars in the v6.1 OOB - can someone explain to me how that works? How does it differ from a normal main infantry weapon in slot 3 or 4?
With regards to the calling in fire missions for light mortar units - I am pretty sure that formation leader restriction does not work. No matter where I attach the light mortar units it seems I can call them using any FO. If this function of the engine is no longer working and if smoke rounds for the US 60mm mortar were the common case in the WWII era, then moving the US 60mm mortar to the 05 - Mortar class makes sense.
The Korean war references for the US light mortars do seem to indicate that the 60mm mortar was often deployed to the platoon level - however I'm really unsure if it was common WWII practice. If it was common WWII practice, how common was it? Enough that it should be the default choice?
One thing in favor of single tube units is that it gives more freedom of choice to both scenario designers and players when it comes to recreating a historical or semi-historical force mix. However there are two other issues of importance:
#1 for light mortars used in the direct fire role, the grouping of multiple tubes into a single unit not only seems to reflect national doctrine for certain countries, but also is *apparently* more survivable in the game. I say apparently because I don't know of any comprehensive test data that supports this. Yet it is obvious from certain OOBs that others with some degree of knowledge about it considered it a worthwhile addition.
#2 for medium/heavy mortars used in the indirect fire role, single tube units are much more costly in C&C points when ordering fire missions. This can be somewhat mitigated by using the mortar units themselves to call in fire - but that doesn't help in the case where an FO is calling in fire missions on a point he has under observation.
I'm coming around to the belief that the 'default' case should be single tube per unit but some OOBs should have additional units (new ones if possible/necessary) to represent multi-tube units.
There is, however, one other possible representation that *may* be useful - perhaps batteries (but not sections) of medium and heavy mortars should be company formations with an FO as company commander and each two or three tube section in the battery as a platoon in the battery 'company'. This would give the battery FO's a larger store of C&C points - granted only a few extra points - but it, together with using the battery section leader's C&C points for calling fire missions - would help in this area at least for the initial call.
We're on the border of some areas concerning the overall artillery simulation in SP:WaW - when we start getting into doctrinal issues there are a number of changes that would be nice - however I'm not at all sure that any degree of real change in this respect is possible with the engine. I really think for any significant changes we'll need to wait for Combat Leader. Best we can do here is try to achieve small improvements without upsetting play balance.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian Yes spliting up the Hvy weapons Platoon/company as needed is the standard US Practice .. the Machine Guns at Platoon level are from the same Heavy weapons Platoon as the 60mm mortars and are split off and disributed under the same doctrine , the Airborne single tube Mortars at platoon level ( that have been double and tripled with this "fix" , and can only be fixed by the creation of single tube units ) are from the same Heavy Weapons Platoon and same doctrine .. the Single tube Mortars in the Mech Infantry Platoon , the "Arm Mortar Sec" same doctrine same basic TO&E with tracks instead of trucks ..
The Massive HQ formations at both Co and BN with their AT guns and bazookas and 11 HMG are all farmed out as needed at the descrection of the CO .
The truely wierd part of this is that the US is the only natiuon in the game with the Portable Radio assets to actually have suport weapons like Mortars and HMG set up remotely and still controled centrally .. In short every formation in the US OOB aside from the Leg Infantry and Rangers is set up with the correct flexibility. The light Mortar and the Rifle Grenade are key elements of US Platoon doctrine , ( don't get me started on the removing of US Rifle Grenades from all US units post '43) The M2 had a special base plate for Direct fire and The M19's only diifference was a Trigger , both to facilitate direct fire .. the US was the first nation to design and deploy a Modern dedicated Grenade Launcher and has gone on to make it a Basic feature of the Infantry rifle .. all due to the basic doctrine of giving the Grunt a significant HE capability.
Actually I think the other nations should be documenting and offering references that the 50mm type had the kind of indirect fire capability that is represented in the game and that the Platoon leader had some way of calling it or directing it if they are not in the same Hex.
But I don't think that will happen.
The US had the flexibility , the doctrine, and the technology to not only distribute the Heavy weapons at both Comapny and Batallion level to lower echelons but also to co-ordinate and control them .
As to the Rifles .. if it is in any slot other than slot 1 , it is a single weapon per unit .. In the case of most Crew served weapons, AT guns and up to inculde medium and Heavy mortars , and on board arty , the convention is, if you need rifle fire , then you must dismount the crew from the weapon , fire the rifles and then remount the weapon , in full accoradance with suppresion rules ect.. however with MG's and infantry mortars the additional "crew" are strictly ammo carriers and drop the ammo at the weapons site when the weapon is set up and use individual weapons .. thus they are armed with slot #2 weapons .. sort of a compromise within the game engine, since a MG and Light Mortar cannot fire during the turn they move, a Turn being 2-3 minutes and set up time for MG's and Infantry mortars being less than 30 seconds . The compromise being the lesser of three evils of letting a crew served weapon fire while moving, or not having any ability to fire at all the turn they move. It looks like a lot of crew served infantry weapons have been shorted in the slot #2 weapon area , and it isn't necesary to do that because the OOB's have 2X and 3X rifles exactly for that purpose. Since you are back from break will you be doing the US Marines they have the same basic structure and doctrine as regards the distribution of Heavy Platoon/Company weapons, shall i do them ?
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]</p>
The Massive HQ formations at both Co and BN with their AT guns and bazookas and 11 HMG are all farmed out as needed at the descrection of the CO .
The truely wierd part of this is that the US is the only natiuon in the game with the Portable Radio assets to actually have suport weapons like Mortars and HMG set up remotely and still controled centrally .. In short every formation in the US OOB aside from the Leg Infantry and Rangers is set up with the correct flexibility. The light Mortar and the Rifle Grenade are key elements of US Platoon doctrine , ( don't get me started on the removing of US Rifle Grenades from all US units post '43) The M2 had a special base plate for Direct fire and The M19's only diifference was a Trigger , both to facilitate direct fire .. the US was the first nation to design and deploy a Modern dedicated Grenade Launcher and has gone on to make it a Basic feature of the Infantry rifle .. all due to the basic doctrine of giving the Grunt a significant HE capability.
Actually I think the other nations should be documenting and offering references that the 50mm type had the kind of indirect fire capability that is represented in the game and that the Platoon leader had some way of calling it or directing it if they are not in the same Hex.
But I don't think that will happen.
The US had the flexibility , the doctrine, and the technology to not only distribute the Heavy weapons at both Comapny and Batallion level to lower echelons but also to co-ordinate and control them .
As to the Rifles .. if it is in any slot other than slot 1 , it is a single weapon per unit .. In the case of most Crew served weapons, AT guns and up to inculde medium and Heavy mortars , and on board arty , the convention is, if you need rifle fire , then you must dismount the crew from the weapon , fire the rifles and then remount the weapon , in full accoradance with suppresion rules ect.. however with MG's and infantry mortars the additional "crew" are strictly ammo carriers and drop the ammo at the weapons site when the weapon is set up and use individual weapons .. thus they are armed with slot #2 weapons .. sort of a compromise within the game engine, since a MG and Light Mortar cannot fire during the turn they move, a Turn being 2-3 minutes and set up time for MG's and Infantry mortars being less than 30 seconds . The compromise being the lesser of three evils of letting a crew served weapon fire while moving, or not having any ability to fire at all the turn they move. It looks like a lot of crew served infantry weapons have been shorted in the slot #2 weapon area , and it isn't necesary to do that because the OOB's have 2X and 3X rifles exactly for that purpose. Since you are back from break will you be doing the US Marines they have the same basic structure and doctrine as regards the distribution of Heavy Platoon/Company weapons, shall i do them ?
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]</p>
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Brian another quick point on recalclating the cost of the triple mortar units .. I have a copy of the spread sheet from hell with the calculation formula for the units .. and here is the rub .. the different weapon slots have slighly different values in the overall scheme of things .. which is why a weapon will have a slihghtly different cost if it is in a diferent slot .. something the triple single tubes in a combined unit doesn't really do well in calculation wise .. the values differ because the different slots all have slightly different arcs of fire and other features .. so I think the best way is to manually mulitply by the number of tubes to get the correct price ( ie should you decide to keep the totally ahisterical 9 mortar German Infantry company)
As to the medium and Heavy mortars I think 2 Mortars per section for everybody but the Soviets , with the Soviets at 3 should work .. I converted one of the US units in the above post back to a single 81mm , since it has always had a single in the OOB till now and it was causing a duplicate formation in the arty purchase screen not having a single .. In fact that single 81mm should be an option in the Ranger formation.
There is a single tube 81mm in the US Marines OOB and it is needed , or was Needed for some unit I forget which, since i haven't worked on that yet. So until somebody figures out for sure what changed there, don't change it, or you will probably get the dublicate formation problem in the buy screen somewhere.
In all this have you given any thought to correcting some of the specification problems , primarily range, with some of the mortar units.. this "all 3inch/80mm/81mm/82mm having the same range" has never been really addressed, we had hoped to get to it on the Tiger Team OOB scrub .. but ran out of time..
As to the medium and Heavy mortars I think 2 Mortars per section for everybody but the Soviets , with the Soviets at 3 should work .. I converted one of the US units in the above post back to a single 81mm , since it has always had a single in the OOB till now and it was causing a duplicate formation in the arty purchase screen not having a single .. In fact that single 81mm should be an option in the Ranger formation.
There is a single tube 81mm in the US Marines OOB and it is needed , or was Needed for some unit I forget which, since i haven't worked on that yet. So until somebody figures out for sure what changed there, don't change it, or you will probably get the dublicate formation problem in the buy screen somewhere.
In all this have you given any thought to correcting some of the specification problems , primarily range, with some of the mortar units.. this "all 3inch/80mm/81mm/82mm having the same range" has never been really addressed, we had hoped to get to it on the Tiger Team OOB scrub .. but ran out of time..
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
I'm planning on examining the German OOB next (out of order from my previous posts but it is important due to the inability to add any units to the OOB since it is full). I'd very much like to see your thoughts on the US Marine OOB's mortar units.
I think we're getting closer to finding a workable overall approach, just need to make sure that there are no other 'traps' lurking in the OOBs for the nations that haven't been analyzed in this thread as yet.
As regards to mortar weapon ranges and other characteristics that may differ between different types of similar sized mortars - it hasn't been high on my agenda thus far, but I agree that it is definately worth looking into. Still I'd like to do this one step at a time - first get the units and formations straightened out - and then look at the other aspects. I've also had some thoughts that we may want to examine FO costs and rarity for the various OOBs, as well as team organization, but one thing at a time <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks,
Brian
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]</p>
I think we're getting closer to finding a workable overall approach, just need to make sure that there are no other 'traps' lurking in the OOBs for the nations that haven't been analyzed in this thread as yet.
As regards to mortar weapon ranges and other characteristics that may differ between different types of similar sized mortars - it hasn't been high on my agenda thus far, but I agree that it is definately worth looking into. Still I'd like to do this one step at a time - first get the units and formations straightened out - and then look at the other aspects. I've also had some thoughts that we may want to examine FO costs and rarity for the various OOBs, as well as team organization, but one thing at a time <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks,
Brian
[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]</p>
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
The OOB for Germany is a very special case - there is *no* room to add any units. As you will soon see, this causes some rather unique problems to arise which are difficult to solve in a manner consistent with solutions possible for other OOBs.
First the v6.1 data:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany
1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x3
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany
Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 158 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 67 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammmo: HE 40
And now the v7.0 data:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany
1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1087 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1088 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1104 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1105 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 81mm Mort Sqd
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany
Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 32 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 158 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 82 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 102 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 073 Ammo: HE 30
Potential Problems:
#1: Eliminating the unit multiplier for formation 1136 by tripling the base unit's (133) number of tubes has the unfortunate side effect of tripling the number of tubes at the platoon level for formations 1082, 1087, 1092, 1099, 1104, and 1109.
Solution: given the v6.1 formation data and the inability to add units to the OOB, there is only one realistic solution available to us: return unit 133 to the single tube v6.1 unit configuration and rework formation 1136. The question then becomes - how to rework formation 1136? Bearing in mind C&C effects, I think the best solution is to create a new platoon level formation having a single unit 133. Then modify formation 1136 to be a company level formation with 3 platoons - each being the newly created single light mortar tube platoon. This assumes that the light mortars in the new formation will call their own missions - not the most realistic outcome, but given the limitations and constraints - it is, in my opinion, the best available option.
#2: Platoons 1088 and 1105 now have an 81mm mortar unit 134 attached. However formations 1148, 1149, and 1153 still require a two tube version of the same mortar. Unit 134 has been modified into a two tube version but that has the effect of putting two tubes with each 1088 and 1105 type platoon. I don't think this was the intention.
Solution: there's no easy one here. The proposed formation change approach suggested for problem #1 with the light mortar will *not* work with the 81mm mortar due to it being used in section and platoon formations with company level units already. Modifying formation 1148 to have two units of a single tube each would double the C&C cost of medium mortars for this OOB. In my opinion that is not a viable solution. My earnest suggestion here is to move the 81mm mortars back up to the company level as per the v6.1 OOB and stick with the v7.0 double tube unit 134 version.
Summary: this OOB presents us with a couple of crucial dilemmas. Play balance wise it prevents us from going wild with multiple new unit solutions in any 'across the board' approach. It also serves to remind us that we are operating within the constraints of a set of engine limitations which cannot realistically be overcome without an entirely new engine.
Next up, the Soviet OOB, there are some issues there with large numbers of tubes per formation that I want to examine for C&C effects.
As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome.
Thanks,
Brian
(PS: as a professional programmer who has had to maintain code written under earlier programming paradigms such as SP:WaW appears to have used, I'm fully aware that no economically feasible major improvements to the v7.0 engine are likely - *ever* - we have to do the best with what we have here - at least until Combat Leader. In a similar vein, adding new units to the German OOB has so many ramifications due to the need to relocate other units that it would almost certainly adversely impact the Mega Campaigns and many scenarios - it is, like patching the engine itself - not a realistic option imo.)
First the v6.1 data:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany
1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x1
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd x3
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd x2
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd x2
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Germany
Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 158 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 67 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammmo: HE 40
And now the v7.0 data:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany
1082 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1085 - Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1087 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1088 - PzG Mot Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1092 - PzG Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1099 - SS Rifle Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1101 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1102 - SS Rifle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1104 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1105 - SS Mot Plt - requires 1x 81mm Mort Sqd
1109 - SS Mech Plt - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1116 - FJ Company - requires 2x 1148 Mortar Sec
1120 - VG Company - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
1126 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1128 - Pioneer Co - requires 1x 1153 Mech Mortar Plt
1136 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 50mm Mort Sqd
1148 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1149 - Mortar Plt - requires 3x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1150 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1151 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 135 120mm Mort Sqd
1153 - Mech Mortar Plt - requires 1x 134 81mm Mort Sqd
1180 - VG Bicycle Co - requires 1x 1148 Mortar Sec
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Germany
Unit# 133
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 7072 (text 7072)
Cost: 32 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 158 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 134
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 7090 (text 7090)
Cost: 82 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Unit# 135
Name: 120mm Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 91 Icon: 68 lbm: 236 (text 236)
Cost: 102 Avail: Feb '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 073 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 073 Ammo: HE 30
Potential Problems:
#1: Eliminating the unit multiplier for formation 1136 by tripling the base unit's (133) number of tubes has the unfortunate side effect of tripling the number of tubes at the platoon level for formations 1082, 1087, 1092, 1099, 1104, and 1109.
Solution: given the v6.1 formation data and the inability to add units to the OOB, there is only one realistic solution available to us: return unit 133 to the single tube v6.1 unit configuration and rework formation 1136. The question then becomes - how to rework formation 1136? Bearing in mind C&C effects, I think the best solution is to create a new platoon level formation having a single unit 133. Then modify formation 1136 to be a company level formation with 3 platoons - each being the newly created single light mortar tube platoon. This assumes that the light mortars in the new formation will call their own missions - not the most realistic outcome, but given the limitations and constraints - it is, in my opinion, the best available option.
#2: Platoons 1088 and 1105 now have an 81mm mortar unit 134 attached. However formations 1148, 1149, and 1153 still require a two tube version of the same mortar. Unit 134 has been modified into a two tube version but that has the effect of putting two tubes with each 1088 and 1105 type platoon. I don't think this was the intention.
Solution: there's no easy one here. The proposed formation change approach suggested for problem #1 with the light mortar will *not* work with the 81mm mortar due to it being used in section and platoon formations with company level units already. Modifying formation 1148 to have two units of a single tube each would double the C&C cost of medium mortars for this OOB. In my opinion that is not a viable solution. My earnest suggestion here is to move the 81mm mortars back up to the company level as per the v6.1 OOB and stick with the v7.0 double tube unit 134 version.
Summary: this OOB presents us with a couple of crucial dilemmas. Play balance wise it prevents us from going wild with multiple new unit solutions in any 'across the board' approach. It also serves to remind us that we are operating within the constraints of a set of engine limitations which cannot realistically be overcome without an entirely new engine.
Next up, the Soviet OOB, there are some issues there with large numbers of tubes per formation that I want to examine for C&C effects.
As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome.
Thanks,
Brian
(PS: as a professional programmer who has had to maintain code written under earlier programming paradigms such as SP:WaW appears to have used, I'm fully aware that no economically feasible major improvements to the v7.0 engine are likely - *ever* - we have to do the best with what we have here - at least until Combat Leader. In a similar vein, adding new units to the German OOB has so many ramifications due to the need to relocate other units that it would almost certainly adversely impact the Mega Campaigns and many scenarios - it is, like patching the engine itself - not a realistic option imo.)
Originally posted by Brian Price:
The OOB for Germany is a very special case - there is *no* room to add any units. As you will soon see, this causes some rather unique problems to arise which are difficult to solve in a manner consistent with solutions possible for other OOBs.
...
(PS: as a professional programmer who has had to maintain code written under earlier programming paradigms such as SP:WaW appears to have used, I'm fully aware that no economically feasible major improvements to the v7.0 engine are likely - *ever* - we have to do the best with what we have here - at least until Combat Leader. In a similar vein, adding new units to the German OOB has so many ramifications due to the need to relocate other units that it would almost certainly adversely impact the Mega Campaigns and many scenarios - it is, like patching the engine itself - not a realistic option imo.)
Neverending story with German OOb file. You can't free slots to put some "normal" stuff because we need the slots to put there some "special" stuff.
It is a Dogma to maintain the amphibious tanks, duplicate Tigers, etc.. and not improve, as this is the case, for example, the use of Light Mortars (Ten of thousands were built and used)...
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Brian ?? where are you getting your TO&E info ??
There is an " Offical TO&E" in the Steel Panthers Folder Done by Scott Grasse .. I only mention this because it looks like you are trying to make this a little harder than it needs to be.. it looks like you are trying to Attach the Bn's Heavy Weapon Company Assets to the Platoons in some cases with those 81mm mortars .. which is fine by me .. but i just wanted to make sure thats what you wanted to do .. there is a case or two where a Company had some 81mm mortars of their own .. Panzer Greniders had 81mm's but no 50mm for example only two to the whole company and not assigned to the manuver platoon ..
I think if you look at the TO&E for the Germans the rule of thumb is going to be
3 50mm mortars at company level ( 1 per platoon ) and 6 81mm at Bn Level Hvy Weapons company for Bn up to end 1943 for a total in the whole Bn of 9 50mm and 6 81mm.s OR
After 43 2 81mm per company total and some 120mm at BN in the heavy weapon CO usually 4 plus some flak guns for a total of 6 81's and 4 120's for the Whole Bn.
if you have other sources fine .. but it looks like you might be trying to correct the mulitples without soild info so I just wanted you to know if you didn't ..there are TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW Folder .. you need adobe acrobat to open them ..hope this helps
There is an " Offical TO&E" in the Steel Panthers Folder Done by Scott Grasse .. I only mention this because it looks like you are trying to make this a little harder than it needs to be.. it looks like you are trying to Attach the Bn's Heavy Weapon Company Assets to the Platoons in some cases with those 81mm mortars .. which is fine by me .. but i just wanted to make sure thats what you wanted to do .. there is a case or two where a Company had some 81mm mortars of their own .. Panzer Greniders had 81mm's but no 50mm for example only two to the whole company and not assigned to the manuver platoon ..
I think if you look at the TO&E for the Germans the rule of thumb is going to be
3 50mm mortars at company level ( 1 per platoon ) and 6 81mm at Bn Level Hvy Weapons company for Bn up to end 1943 for a total in the whole Bn of 9 50mm and 6 81mm.s OR
After 43 2 81mm per company total and some 120mm at BN in the heavy weapon CO usually 4 plus some flak guns for a total of 6 81's and 4 120's for the Whole Bn.
if you have other sources fine .. but it looks like you might be trying to correct the mulitples without soild info so I just wanted you to know if you didn't ..there are TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW Folder .. you need adobe acrobat to open them ..hope this helps
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
The info is coming straight out of the official OOBs - that's not saying I believe they are correct in some cases, in fact I'm pretty sure they aren't. I have absolutely no idea what TOE sources where used for the v7.0 - or for that matter some portions of v6.1 OOBs. That's a topic I'm trying to steer clear of for now until the mortars are straightened out except where necessary to find a solution. When in doubt I'm falling back to the v6.1 mortar requirements and formation composition.Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian ?? where are you getting your TO&E info ??
It seems that there was a desire to push some of the mortars down to platoon level, which is ok by me, but it seems that effort combined with the effort to remove the unit multiplier dependencies had some incorrect and undesireable side effects. I'd like to remove those side effects from the OOBs prior to applying the mortar modifications to correct ROF and accuracy issues. I think the mortars in the 81mm case for Germany that were moved to the platoon level need to be pushed back up to the company level due to the lack of any space in the unit section of the OOB to add the neccessary extra unit to make it work correctly without throwing C&C point costs out of whack.
Thanks,
Brian
Ok Brian I just went back and looked at some of the other Nations you have posted ..
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..
Things got a little crazy with this triple infantry mortar at platoon level and folks might be getting the idea that a company had 9 or 12 mortars or something ..it ain't so .. honest
Just three 50mm/2in/46GL/Knee mortars total for the whole company, either assigned 1 per platoon OR a heavy Platoon with all three in one unit ... this holds true across almost all nations.. some companies will have 2 81mm instead of the 3 50mm , in this case the 81's are best modeled by having them in the heavy weapons platoon only and the Infantry Platoons have NO mortar.
The Heavy weapons Company for the Battalion will have at most 6 81mm or 4 120/4.2 heavy mortars usually in Sections of 2 mortars each .. these could concevably be farmed out to The 3 Companys but they should not be inculded in the Companies themselves .. this too holds true as a general rule for almost all nationalities ..
The way things are currently, most Companys in the game are going to end up with more Mortars than a Battalion and are going to be very very expensive .
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..
Things got a little crazy with this triple infantry mortar at platoon level and folks might be getting the idea that a company had 9 or 12 mortars or something ..it ain't so .. honest
Just three 50mm/2in/46GL/Knee mortars total for the whole company, either assigned 1 per platoon OR a heavy Platoon with all three in one unit ... this holds true across almost all nations.. some companies will have 2 81mm instead of the 3 50mm , in this case the 81's are best modeled by having them in the heavy weapons platoon only and the Infantry Platoons have NO mortar.
The Heavy weapons Company for the Battalion will have at most 6 81mm or 4 120/4.2 heavy mortars usually in Sections of 2 mortars each .. these could concevably be farmed out to The 3 Companys but they should not be inculded in the Companies themselves .. this too holds true as a general rule for almost all nationalities ..
The way things are currently, most Companys in the game are going to end up with more Mortars than a Battalion and are going to be very very expensive .
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
I agree, but the task required to go back and move the special stuff to other OOBs while maintaining compatiblity with the Mega Campaigns and as many scenarios as possible is a daunting one at best, impossible at worse. If I knew which ones were required for all the MCs I'd consider moving some but that would still almost certainly break a few scenarios.Originally posted by Mikimoto:
Neverending story with German OOb file. You can't free slots to put some "normal" stuff because we need the slots to put there some "special" stuff.
It is a Dogma to maintain the amphibious tanks, duplicate Tigers, etc.. and not improve, as this is the case, for example, the use of Light Mortars (Ten of thousands were built and used)...
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
The case is actually worse than stated - Germany used quite a number of different mortars from what I understand, and there's only room in the OOB for a single unit for each mortar classification. The 'ideal' OOB restricted fix for the malfunctioning unit multiplier problem would be to use at least two (and in some cases three) units for each type of mortar, one single tube, the other with multiple tubes. Multiply that by the number of mortar types and the number of units required to represent a sample of available mortars gets large quickly.
When it comes to Germany's OOB, if I had access to the SP:WaW source code I'd tackle the unit multiplier problem directly rather than attempt to sort out which units have to remain in the German OOB and which can be safely moved elsewhere. I'm probably lucky I don't because neither task is remotely simple.
Thanks,
Brian
Brian look at the Offical TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW folder ... these are not the OOB's, they are a different folder altogether, and they haven't changed since Version 1.0. Only the major Powers are inculded and Only the Germans TO&E's are extensive the rest are pretty sketchy ..
I think you might have been misreading the 6.1 OOB's. In 6.1 there were no triple mortars at Infantry Platoon level, and there were no 81mm at infantry platoon level , for any nation I am aware of. I spent about 500 hours in the 6.1 OOB's.. Honest
I think you might have been misreading the 6.1 OOB's. In 6.1 there were no triple mortars at Infantry Platoon level, and there were no 81mm at infantry platoon level , for any nation I am aware of. I spent about 500 hours in the 6.1 OOB's.. Honest
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Brian it is really very simple have a single 50mm/46mm/kneemortar/60mm mortar unit appropiate to each nation, and assign it as a platoon weapon .. period
Have the 80/81/82 as a single tube and a double tube total two unit per nation in the appropiate caliber . and you can skip the single tube for most nations so it is again only one unit per nation .
For everybody but the Russians have a single double tube Heavy Mortar 120/4,2/160mm, and for the Russians a triple tube unit in the appropiate caliber for each nation ..again One unit
total number of non-sp mortar units for any given nation 3 maybe 4
Have the 80/81/82 as a single tube and a double tube total two unit per nation in the appropiate caliber . and you can skip the single tube for most nations so it is again only one unit per nation .
For everybody but the Russians have a single double tube Heavy Mortar 120/4,2/160mm, and for the Russians a triple tube unit in the appropiate caliber for each nation ..again One unit
total number of non-sp mortar units for any given nation 3 maybe 4
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
I believe what you're seeing is that some platoons don't go with some companies (at least they aren't supposed to) - but in any case we're in agreement on the total number of mortars per company or battalion.Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Ok Brian I just went back and looked at some of the other Nations you have posted ..
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..
For the the next version of 'Mortar Mod', when I find a conflict or potential situation which would result in having too many mortars by default - I'll be reverting to the v6.1 OOB formations instead. I don't think medium mortars as a rule should be part of infantry company formations - there's really no need for it in general.
What may be confusing is - for each OOB the potential problems I'm noting with the 7.0 version are only the ones resulting from the changes from version 6.1 - problems inherited from v6.1 aren't being addressed at the moment.
Thanks,
Brian
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
That makes the most sense out of any case I've considered. I'll definately be doing that in the next version of Mortar Mod.Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian it is really very simple have a single 50mm/46mm/kneemortar/60mm mortar unit appropiate to each nation, and assign it as a platoon weapon .. period
Have the 80/81/82 as a single tube and a double tube total two unit per nation in the appropiate caliber . and you can skip the single tube for most nations so it is again only one unit per nation .
For everybody but the Russians have a single double tube Heavy Mortar 120/4,2/160mm, and for the Russians a triple tube unit in the appropiate caliber for each nation ..again One unit
total number of non-sp mortar units for any given nation 3 maybe 4
Part of the reason for doing the analysis the way I did was to locate and make clear exactly what problems existed as well as what limitations existed in applying any fix. Once I went through a few and then looked at what I think are the 'limiting cases' (German and Soviet OOBs) the picture is much more clear.
Btw, could you possibly send me a copy of the 'spreadsheet from hell' or tell me where I could get a copy? It'll hopefully help me in figuring out just what is going on in the Nationalist China OOB. (Still having a bit of a headache with that one.)
Thanks,
Brian
Brian what problems do you think were inherited from 6.1 with the mortars ?
As far as i know with the infantry Companies mortars everything could have been fixed but putting the infantry mortars singlely in the Platoons , and that only occured in two or three places out of all the OOB's ..
And then you had some multiple Mortars in independant Mortar only units on the Artillery page that had an incorrect rate of fire ..
Frankly , so far the cure is appearing worse than the disease..
The Advantages of making everything single tube that can be reaped in terms of breakdown , rate of fire , transportability quite frankly i think offsets any C&C concideration .. add in you could model a greater variety of mortars per nation for example .. historically the German standard 81mm only had a 2 km range , but starting about dec 43 they get the new mortar with a 4.5 km range that is not even in the game . it out ranges all the allied medium mortars and it about matches the US 4.2inch in range , but this mulitple tube variation on the same mortar eats up the spaces .. Germans had an 81mm airborne mortar .. short range but more powerful than the Allies 2in/60mm mortars that their Airborne carried .. not even in the game ..
I think this solution should be looked at ... Nothing else in the game has multiples .. the game engine has limits .. something is going to be off somewhere no matter what we do .. for C&C players it will be a little harder to call fire unless they get FO's, for non C&C players they will have a little more control and flexibility in a God's eye world of hexes ..
Just wanted to put forth the alternative ...
As far as i know with the infantry Companies mortars everything could have been fixed but putting the infantry mortars singlely in the Platoons , and that only occured in two or three places out of all the OOB's ..
And then you had some multiple Mortars in independant Mortar only units on the Artillery page that had an incorrect rate of fire ..
Frankly , so far the cure is appearing worse than the disease..
The Advantages of making everything single tube that can be reaped in terms of breakdown , rate of fire , transportability quite frankly i think offsets any C&C concideration .. add in you could model a greater variety of mortars per nation for example .. historically the German standard 81mm only had a 2 km range , but starting about dec 43 they get the new mortar with a 4.5 km range that is not even in the game . it out ranges all the allied medium mortars and it about matches the US 4.2inch in range , but this mulitple tube variation on the same mortar eats up the spaces .. Germans had an 81mm airborne mortar .. short range but more powerful than the Allies 2in/60mm mortars that their Airborne carried .. not even in the game ..
I think this solution should be looked at ... Nothing else in the game has multiples .. the game engine has limits .. something is going to be off somewhere no matter what we do .. for C&C players it will be a little harder to call fire unless they get FO's, for non C&C players they will have a little more control and flexibility in a God's eye world of hexes ..
Just wanted to put forth the alternative ...
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Brian the spread sheet from hell is Pauls baby you got to ask him it is 25 meg 4 million data elements .. and thats just the data points for the combined OOB's .. it doesn't tell you what is right or wrong .. I think all I have left on my machine is an extract for the small arms MG's auto cannons I was working on way back when .. ver 5 something.. Ask PaulV
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
-
brianleeprice
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:00 am
There are only 3 mortar units in the German OOB. No room to add any units for any reason.
The only question is, what form is the best to use? For Germany, the answer is almost certainly: a single tube light mortar unit, a dual tube medium mortar representation, and a dual tube heavy mortar representation.
In version 6.1 there was no way to purchase a single tube medium or heavy mortar - any attempt to add one is going to require major changes.
Thanks,
Brian
The only question is, what form is the best to use? For Germany, the answer is almost certainly: a single tube light mortar unit, a dual tube medium mortar representation, and a dual tube heavy mortar representation.
In version 6.1 there was no way to purchase a single tube medium or heavy mortar - any attempt to add one is going to require major changes.
Thanks,
Brian