Protectorate Problems

[Russian Guard]

Might be a fluke but I've played several campaigns now with 1.2.16 and haven't seen any Spanish guerrillas anywhere except Spain...

Not sure about 1.2.14, but usually if you hit control/P you get a list of countries, go to the country you want to turn into a protectorate and if there's a "P" button (along with an "L" for liberate, etc) you can Protectorize them.

Last night, playing Russia, I made protectorates out of Georgia, Kovno, Vilyna, Denmark, and Finland - I even attached Finland to Denmark, as I had a choice of having them a separate minor country of a part of Danish hegemony [:D]

Conversely, I also control Bavaria and Wurtemburg, and do not have the option to Protectorate either of them. So, the stubborn fools remain conquered...

One last point - the downside to being at or near the top of the Glory pile is, other player-Nations get annoyed with you. One of the up-sides, though, is that you get asked alot more often to become protector - in my current game, both Hesse and Saxony have asked for Protectorate status from Russia. We graciously accepted, particularly as the Saxons have a full Corps of decent-quality units. They have seen much action [;)]

[Mr. Z]

"Even if that were so, however...it would still be crosshatched (ie, "occupied") upon conquest...you'd still to have to get it through cession. The only provinces you conquer right away are (in most cases) protectorates."

Not so, Every other province (protectorate or free) I've captured became conquered except in the case of provinces that are part of a multi-province minor such as Poland or Denmark. Those become crosshatched until the capitol of the multi-province is captured as well. Parma is not part of a multi-province and should not be crosshatched.

Some clarification may be in order here.

We (the game designers) make a distinction between occupied and conquered/annexed. An occupied province receives the "cross-hatching". Occupied provinces are still controlled by their original posessor, but they don't receive production etc. as noted in the rules. The occupier doesn't gain the province until, yes, the captial is taken, at which point the province becomes conquered/annexed.

[Mr. Z]

I've been doing a little online research into the "Duchy of Parma and Piacenza" (yes, I know I have a lot of free time on my hands!) and I don't really think it should be Spanish controlled in 1792 or 1796. It was an independant Duchy at the start of those two scenarios, ruled by a duke who was from a *branch* of the Spanish Bourbons. IMO it should not be "Spanish Conquered" at all, and certainly not a home province. At best a Spanish protectorate, at worst a completely independant capital province (with its own flag, troops and everything).

Parma and Piacenza proved to be a difficult case. "Piacenza" province was drawn in a way that also includes Modena. Since Parma/Piacenza and Modena had different allegiances and so forth throughout the period, we had a tough time deciding which country it belonged to, and indeed, we felt that different scenarios merited different arrangements.

It was not programmed to be an independent country, and so we had to either give it to an independent country, or to a nation, and in the latter case, it had to be treated as conquered/annexed--non-independent provinces cannot be protectorates. So, giving it to Spain as a directly conquered/annexed province was the best compromise solution. (Technical note: only certain provinces are considered "home provinces" for a nation from a game programming standpoint. There are some small differences between these home provinces, and other provinces which may become conquered/annexed by that country, although they recieive the same solid color.)

Looking at the game files...it's not rated a capital province. It looks to Lombardy for its capital (so its part of Lombardy?!)....but starts 1792 and 1796 Spanish conquered...and 1805 as Italia conquered (with Italia being a French protectorate).

I believe it was originally treated as a part of Lombardy, but we wanted to correct this when designing the scenarios. So, in 1792 and 1796 we gave it to Spain, as it was then ruled by Borbons. In 1805 we gave it to Italia to represent Napoleon's division of Italy.

[Kevan]

Just wanted to comment on the Spanish geurilla situation and protectorates.

Over the past few days, I've played the 1792 scenario as Spain, through to 1799 so far. For at least half that time, I've had armies of Turks or Russians camping out in various home provinces. During a Turkish occupation somewhere around 1794-95, I had geurillas popping up in huge numbers, and since my two main armies were isolated in North Africa and Italy, with my navy destroyed and a hostile France, I ended up rebuilding my military with a heavy reliance on geurillas. My highest-morale divisions are now geurillas. I have at least six divisions with morale higher than 6, a couple higher than 6.5.

As for protectorates, my experience has been that nations with low glory seem to have a greater chance of gaining protectorates. In the above Spain game, I gained no protectorates when I was leading in glory for about 3 years. However, since the first of five surrenders in as many years and reaching the lowest ranking for glory, I've been offered the protectorates of Piedmont, the Papacy, Corsica, three Germanic kingdoms, and Gibraltar. In past games, playing with other nations, I always had high glory ratings, spent tons of money subsidizing countries, built up diplomatic corps that charmed the pants off of everyone, and was always frustrated by how few protectorates I was offered.

[Russian Guard]

ORIGINAL: kevan

As for protectorates, my experience has been that nations with low glory seem to have a greater chance of gaining protectorates. In the above Spain game, I gained no protectorates when I was leading in glory for about 3 years. However, since the first of five surrenders in as many years and reaching the lowest ranking for glory, I've been offered the protectorates of Piedmont, the Papacy, Corsica, three Germanic kingdoms, and Gibraltar. In past games, playing with other nations, I always had high glory ratings, spent tons of money subsidizing countries, built up diplomatic corps that charmed the pants off of everyone, and was always frustrated by how few protectorates I was offered.

Interesting - the opposite of my experience as Russia, in numerous campaigns. I have _always_ done better at Protectorate offerings when highly ranked in Glory.

Hmmm...could it be Nation-related? Nah...

[TexHorns]

I am playing as France in a game begun in 1792 and am now at 1800. While trailing in glory points early in the game I was offered saxony, wurtemberg, and hesse. More recently while leading in glory I was offered venice and lombardy as protectorates. So it seems to be more random imo. I don't bother with subsidy. I will charm on occasion, but since there seems to be little control over influencing protectorate status I usually just wait for the opportunity when offered. I have begun using insurrection much more to keep other countries from have all the protectorates.

Saxony is truly awesome as a protectorate. I have a full Saxon corps as well as various other divsions scattered throughout the army. Someone mentioned Poland earlier. Poland was offered to me early in the game and has given France a huge advantage from the standpoint of economy, military and access to eastern europe.

As for ctrl/p to bring up country list. I check this list periodically and nothing changes on it. As I have described before, it lists the wrong country as conqueror and does not give option to protectorate a country. It is 1800 and the only option I have to protectorate is Lorraine which is French conquered from beginning of the game. Other countries I have conquered do not give me the option and half the time still show another country as protectorate.

[Mr. Z]

As for ctrl/p to bring up country list. I check this list periodically and nothing changes on it.

Have you conquered any independent countries?

As I have described before, it lists the wrong country as conqueror and does not give option to protectorate a country.

Could you provide an example?

It is 1800 and the only option I have to protectorate is Lorraine which is French conquered from beginning of the game.

That is correct: the latest patches permit you to convert conquered countries into protectorates.

Other countries I have conquered do not give me the option and half the time still show another country as protectorate.

As noted above, we are working on the issue of making sure the relationship of conquered countries with their previous controlling nations is broken upon conquest. Besides that, are there any countries you've conquered that don't give you the option to convert to a protectorate?

[Russian Guard]

[/quote]
As noted above, we are working on the issue of making sure the relationship of conquered countries with their previous controlling nations is broken upon conquest. Besides that, are there any countries you've conquered that don't give you the option to convert to a protectorate?
[/quote]

As noted above, I conquered Bavaria (the province) and Wurtemburg, and was not given the option to Protectorate. v1.2.16

The specifics: I was Russia, it was 1809, I marched through Austria to war on France. Sieged Bavaria, when it fell it went solid green, along with Wurtemburg. France had not yet surrendered.

I was unable to make a protectorate of Bavaria or Wurtemburg.

[TexHorns]

Batavia is conquered and unable to protecorate. In fact still shows as Swedish protectorate. Same with Mecklenberg, Holstein, Hanover, Baden Italia, Bosnia, East Prussia. All are conquered and have been for several years. All still show previous major power as protecorate. None will allow me to portecorate. Brunswick also, but early on I liberated it as an experiment trying to figure it out. It stayed independent for one turn then became British protecorate. Stopped liberating in its tracks.

[Mr. Z]

As noted above, I conquered Bavaria (the province) and Wurtemburg, and was not given the option to Protectorate. v1.2.16

The specifics: I was Russia, it was 1809, I marched through Austria to war on France. Sieged Bavaria, when it fell it went solid green, along with Wurtemburg. France had not yet surrendered.

I was unable to make a protectorate of Bavaria or Wurtemburg.

Are you sure you didn't have any units in Wuerttemberg? If not, then it must have become attached to Bavaria (or vice-versa) somehow. If you didn't do it, then I guess the AI must have...Eric, is the AI smart enough to know to attach protectorates to each other under the new rule?

If you couldn't turn either into a protectorate, then yes, that must be one of the cases where the relationship between a province and its former controller isn't being broken upon conquest like it should--because, if two provinces fell at the same time, but you only had troops in one of them, then they must have been attached to each other.

[Mr. Z]

Batavia is conquered and unable to protecorate. In fact still shows as Swedish protectorate. Same with Mecklenberg, Holstein, Hanover, Baden Italia, Bosnia, East Prussia. All are conquered and have been for several years. All still show previous major power as protecorate. None will allow me to portecorate. Brunswick also, but early on I liberated it as an experiment trying to figure it out. It stayed independent for one turn then became British protecorate. Stopped liberating in its tracks.

Yes, some of these are cases where the previous relationship is not being broken--as stated, we are looking into this. It's *possible*, I suppose, that in your game, those provinces had become attached to other non-independent provinces, and what happened was, the capital moved once the original capital province was captured.

However, three of those examples are non-independent provinces: Holstein, Bosnia, and East Prussia. The only way those could become independent countries is if they became attached to an independent country (by either a player or the AI, but I'm not even sure yet if the AI can do this--waiting for Eric to clarify), and the original capital province of that country became conquered--then the capital province might move (under the right circunstances) to a new province. But under normal circumstances, those three provinces are non-independent provinces, and hence cannot be converted into protectorates.

However, there is still obviously something wrong, b/c even though they're conquered non-independent provinces, you state that the country list still shows them under the control of their previous owners (though I'm a little confused by this--do you have a screenshot of what you're talking about?) So even if they can't become protectorates, the game should still show them as controlled by the correct country, yes.

It sounds like Brunswick became liberated, then instantly asked Britain to form a protectorate. But that is another case where it should have been shown as your protectorate, so hopefully that will be fixed by the new check, too.

[TexHorns]

Mr Z,

Bosnia confuses me as they have a nuetral bosnian army sitting there. I thought since they have their own army they were an independent country. I have seen that with East Prussia as well in other games. Some of theses countries have the capital city symbol, yet still do not give protectorate option.

I could send a screen shot if I knew how. Sorry.

[Mr. Z]

Bosnia confuses me as they have a nuetral bosnian army sitting there. I thought since they have their own army they were an independent country. I have seen that with East Prussia as well in other games. Some of theses countries have the capital city symbol, yet still do not give protectorate option.

Whoops, yes, Bosnia is indeed an independent country. I shouldn't have said it wasn't--sorry.

And yes, you're right--East Prussia is one too! It's at the bottom of the list and I missed it. In those cases, those must be additional countries which the game still thinks are attached to their original owners. Hopefully this will be fixed by the check that Eric comes up with.

[Mus]

Ive had some more experiences trying to form the Confederation of the Rhine and also the Duchy of Warsaw by forming protectorates from conquered or ceded provinces. In most cases they dont have a P button that allows you to to form them into either independant protectorates or attach them to another protectorate (which would be fantastic), and if you Liberate them they have -1000 to -2000 attitudes towards you which doesnt normalize. I cant understand if its something Im doing wrong or the result of underlying bugs as you stated it may be.

On a side note I received Warsaw, Thorn and Krakow as part of a Prussian surrender to me as France. When they ceded to my control they had all kinds of independant Krakow and Warsaw flagged nuetral units sitting on top of them under the control of noone (they had previously been Prussian controlled).

Strange. The system is very "Talmudic" indeed as another poster wrote. I wish the system was a bit more intuitive and easier to manipulate towards a realistic end (which is the formation amalgamation and reformation of puppet governments almost at the whim of Napoleon).

If improving on that is too much to ask for COG put that at the top of my wishlist for COG II.

[&o]

[gdpsnake]

Mr. Z,
I have a game where currently East Prussia is 'mine' but still shows Turkey as the owner. How do I make a screenshot to attach here?
Oddly, before Turkey took it, East Prussia belonged to Poland.

[Mr. Z]

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

Mr. Z,
I have a game where currently East Prussia is 'mine' but still shows Turkey as the owner. How do I make a screenshot to attach here?
Oddly, before Turkey took it, East Prussia belonged to Poland.

If you wanted, you could send a screenshot (next time, if you've already moved on!) of a) the province control box (from the main screen) b) the province on the map, and c) the box from the Military unit list, if applicable.

Thanks!

[carnifex]

Protectorates remain my pet peeve with this game and caused me to abandon my Turkey game yesterday.

I seized a bunch of provinces from Austria and I couldn't make them into protectorates to reduce my waste. I was so frustrated. All I could do was liberate them. Meanwhile I started a test game as Austria and was able to protectorize all of them no problem.

I hope this "previous relationship is not being broken" bug or whatever is fixed soon, hopefully this patch and not in two months.

[gdpsnake]

Mr Z,
Ho do I get a screenshot? What keys do I hit while the game is running to get a screenshot?

[jimwinsor]

Like I said in a post way up above...I no longer feel so bad about the fact that I *sometimes* can't immediately make (P)rotectorates out of those countries I conquer from other nations. Like I said above, these cases seem to happen when the original controlling nation retains some troops of the protectorate fighting for them; in such a case these troops represent a sort of government in exile of sorts, which in a way realistically prevents you from forming your own *legitimate* government there. You see, if this is indeed the case...then there is a certain logic to it.

But you can still (L)iberate such countries, and then those troops "in exile" go home. At this point you can make them a (P)rotectorate diplomatically, I would imagine. The problem is, even after (L)iberation, in most cases these countries both 1) hate you (-1000s in attitude); and 2) tend to still like the original controlling nation you conquered them from. So getting them as a protectorate that way is usually a tough job. They are more likely to join their former master than you.

So...maybe a solution is to program in a big diplomatic bonus when you (L)iberate a country...a realistic "gratitude" bonus. A couple thousand points or so should do it. Now, this way there would at least be a reasonable methodology in place to make these guys into protectorates. Not a quick and guaranteed way, but at least a reasonable one.

[carnifex]

Mr Z,
Ho do I get a screenshot? What keys do I hit while the game is running to get a screenshot?

Print Screen key. Then open up any graphics progam and paste.