Researching German A/C

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

d.) half the numbers of german planes able to fly - these numbers are just silly. On paper they may have exist but if the germans in history had had such numbers of planes and pilots air war had ended in that moment.
Your numbers (80-90 fighters vers. 800 bombers and 1100 fighters) sound more realistic. (mid/late war)
In the begining the germans have more (or the allies less) fighters and if the german player is good, he should have more planes. but not the numbers we had in the old btr.

e.) operational losses should be higher - own flak losses lower, esp. if the planes try to land on the own base. If this is a bug, kill it and rise the ops losses. How often got a group of german planes, landing on the own base get ripped by aa fire ? In game one day has higher losses as in the whole war.
But with the poor pilots, often they jumped out because this was safer as to land a slightly damaged plane.

Hi All,

d. All German fighter assets in the game are available to the German player to use how he sees fit. Whereas in reality the Axis would also have to think about trying to counter Coastal Cmd strikes they don't have to worry about this significant threat in BTR so can devote everything to dealing with strategic raids. Maybe the amount of Axis a/c available for use would be reduced if damaged a/c were allowed to forceland at the nearest A/F. This would save the a/c being lost by trying to fly back to their home base but diverted a/c would also take longer to repair and recover to their home base thus reducing the amount of ready a/c. In real life a/c could take days to get home. As Werner says we've talked about this point (diverting of a/c) a lot in the past.

e. I don't think operational (combat) losses should be higher. I think they are too high, but this may be a function of the amount of intercepting a/c involved. For the tutorial (Schweinfurt 17Aug43) game it is easy to regularly bring down 120+ bombers, about twice the actual number. To counter this however non-operational losses aren't taken into account be the game so to a certain extent losses may balance out.

Also I think the amount of KIA pilots is too high.

As for friendly flak casualties it is a pain but it's how it was in real life. The amount of a/c shot down by friendly flak was very high. Maybe the flak firing at landing a/c is a little excessive. Maybe blast away at the first couple in circuit until it is apparent they're friendly then ease off. Remember a/c recognition wasn't a strong point of any side.


As for all the what if scenarios all that can be done is to put the conditions in place that existed at the time that the game starts and to try and model everthing as accurately as possible. Within this frame work the player should be allowed to try whatever he wants. As an example ff it the process of trying to develope the Me262 by Feb44 (devoting all the necessary resoures) he totally screws up his whole a/c industry that's his fault and he will lose the game.

von Shagmeister

[Hard Sarge]

add a:
experience goes down during the game ( and amount of losses ) for the Germans during all of the game - in 1945 most of your newbie pilots are around 20 to 25 exp ( depends on total losses - overall can be up to 30 or down to 15 )

maybe with the newer OOB's this works better, but the game I took over from someone else, in Nov of 44, the GE Exp level is much higher then the Allies, most Gruppen are in the high 60-70's, I see Allied pilots coming into the FG's with a Exp level of 40, where I don't see any GE pilots with this level

I have never seen a High Excourt break off and chase a enemy unit ?, I see them engage in combat on the way to the raid, but they never break off and chase

Sweeps, I have seen break off there path and follow a enemy unit

[Adnan Meshuggi]

yes - that was my knowledge, too...

[Adnan Meshuggi]

nah - do not say the s-word...

and it was only to explain some things... nobody wants a "s-tank" discussion [:)]

[Adnan Meshuggi]

For the Flak-Losses...

look, if we are late in the war, P51 at any place at any time, i would agree.

But if you have 36 german FW190, intercepting a deep inland bomberraid in 43 (with no air cover) they were able to inform their Air base that now some german planes try to land... my issue was in early war times. Later on, this flak losses cause of trigger nervous german flak guns is true. But in 43, no such thing like loosing 6 planes try to land at his home base happened deep in germany.

at the coast, at bad weather, no problems. But not with clear sight early in the game deep in germany. Cause even a blind guy knows the difference between a 4mot bomber and a single engine fighter.

For the ops-losses of allied bombers, i have the same problem. At last for the crews. A damaged bomber could be killed. Can crash, null problemo. But they do not fly home as sealevel in the near of the british coast and they do not want to make sucide at dover [:)]
Such things should be repaired.

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

But if you have 36 german FW190, intercepting a deep inland bomberraid in 43 (with no air cover) they were able to inform their Air base that now some german planes try to land... my issue was in early war times. Later on, this flak losses cause of trigger nervous german flak guns is true. But in 43, no such thing like loosing 6 planes try to land at his home base happened deep in germany.

at the coast, at bad weather, no problems. But not with clear sight early in the game deep in germany. Cause even a blind guy knows the difference between a 4mot bomber and a single engine fighter.

Hi Adnan,

You have a valid point, I was thinking about A/Fs within the range of Allied fighter which as you say in 43 was very different to 44 and 45.

von Shagmeister

[Adnan Meshuggi]

ORIGINAL: swift

Hi Adnan,
I think I have to play the troll [:'(]

nah - trolling is different - you just share your thoughts [:D]

add a:
experience goes down during the game ( and amount of losses ) for the Germans during all of the game - in 1945 most of your newbie pilots are around 20 to 25 exp ( depends on total losses - overall can be up to 30 or down to 15 )

Not in my games. Here i had the high experience bug. Say i had a Staffel with exp. 80 and they loose some pilots. The newbies had between 75-90! In december 44.
But honestly, the allied AI was broken the neck. But after one trillion turns i disliked the idea to give up. (and i was happy about my newbie aces... but in a new game this should be fixed)
add b:
maybe I am to dumb - please explain that one again

no problem - my language (or the missing part) is the problem.
I said, that interception in btr worked well for piston engine planes... but jets are much faster - faster as the air cover. So they do "ignore" em. But in btr you get a check and then the "better" p51 shot down a lot of your me262 in a situation they just look (after that, they follow and try to shot down at the landing or destroy the parked planes - but in combat with the bombers they have no chance to intercept)
I hope it is clearer now ?

add c:
?? plan your raids the right way and you will often enough massacre the German LW units during landing.

Well - yes. Against AI and if the german player makes some mistakes (beside the frozen bug) But historically the allies followed the german jets and tried to destroy em at the landig (slow down) or start (engines need time to speed up) That were the only phases a piston engine plane could kill the jet (or it has trouble with the engines)

Also there is a build in in the escort routine => often enough high lvl high morale escort units will follow breaking off Germans back to their A/F and cause havoc !! ( you will see this more often in late 44 and in 45 !!)

I never saw this.
add d:
why ?? what for ???
if you play your cards right, the Allied will have 6 to 10 AS in autumn of 44 !! ( in a vs AI game - in PBEM the Allied player will be happy to go up to 5 at any time )
Also plan your raids to distract the German interceptors......

As i said, btr has some serious problems.
first:
The germans could just not bring so many planes into the air and attack allied bombers.
Why should we double/tripple the numbers of german planes (and reduce their efficence to 20% of what would happen with these numbers?) German airforce could not use so many airplanes. If they could, they could destroy a whole bomber formation. If 20 fighters attack a box or 200, that makes a huge difference. In game they are 200 but work like 20. So let us bring the numbers down and a lot problems will vanish.
add e:
oparational losses - I agree with you ( you see I am not a total troll [;)] )
but: a way back many people complained about the high lvl of operational losses in BTR - so they wont be happy
I do not care who is unhappy - i try to make it more realistic.

add f:
yes and no - the routine was rewritten in on of the first patches.
I do not think that BTR should concentrate on pure ground attack for a victory !! By the way I do not think that that one would have worked in RL.
I think it is okay that the invasions/breaktrough can be advanced or delayed for - lets say - 4 to 6 weeks; but that should be all.

Well - i think the allied side need to achive total air superiority in northern france or the invasion is postphoned. As they did in real life. Now you can ignore the invasion front completly... and the invasion will happen. Do you think this is realistic ? I bet the invasion without full air superiority would never happen.
BUT: during the retreat you can speed your ground wins up with ground attacks ( if that makes any sense to you !)
Yes. This is helpful. But on the other side, you can invade, ignore it and will still move ahead (without air support such things would not happen that way).
I think we need for the invasion and its support different rules.

add g:
weather modell of BTR is one of the worst !! ( even Europe ablaze by SSG back in the 80ies had a better weather simulation )

yes.

add h:
nice idea, but I do not think that will work

add i:
we ( especially VonShagmeister ) complained about that very often.
The Germans did use forwarded A/Fs very often throughout the war.
It would be great to bring that one into the game ( also for the Stukas in BoB)

add j:
no you did not [:'(]
by the way to counter RL we should have 18 A/C Staffeln for certain Gruppen from summer on and / or Gruppen with 4 Staffeln!!

yes
add k:
???? The Allied have more than enough A/C to waste throughout the war !!!
Well - yes. In RL. But in some games not. And i dislike the idea that the allies will be outproduced (see the WitP-Problem with production)

add ??? morale ??
are you nuts !!!!
no - i am not. I would eliminate it for 4mots. Limitate the numbers of air strikes by other ways but the "turn back after a flight of 1000 miles is silly".
add k the second one:
??? please explain again ??
The "give an order and all german planes directed to this target will follow until fuel is empty"-Problem. Even if 4 Bombers are the target for 200 fighters (cause you identified it as a 200 bombers group) you can´t redirect. So if we can´t solve this extremly important problem, we maybe need all the extra planes and pilots for the germans (so they could work around this bug)

add l:
I´d say nearly never 3 , always twos or fours !!
No - sorry. After the first experiments, the germans learned that 4 was useless. 3 was the best way to work with the new planes. If they fly in 2, then one plane couldn´t start. This is true for the fighters.

add Ta 152H:
a different model for the flying physics would be great !!

Oh well - for both sides... i allways had to laugh if FW190A fly in 35000 feet with full power. Very realistic [8|]


add Me262s:
I do not understand the panic, they are only great with experten units or in 1945 with those infamous new rockets [:D]
Famous rockets. I love em. In one game i destroyed 1000 Bombers with old FW190

For the "panic", well i had tons of em and they gave me back air superiority, cause all other piston engine planes could attack the air cover and the bombers died.

add speed of research:
you can always play with houserules
what if is playing can be great also you will not be happy with a pure jet LW in BTR
yes - you need doras or Ta152 to cover em and to kill the fighters...

Even if you have 1000 P51H to cover em.

not true, with the right planed escorts&raids you will eliminate at least 50 to 100 of the attacking Swallows !!

Maybe after the killing of the bombers, the damaged me262 could be killed, but not to protect the bomber (main job for air cover)

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well - it is difficult in a foreign language... so i am happy someone else has recognized this problem

thank you [:)]

[otisabuser2]

Adnan said :

The Spitfire was improved, all the time - here we agree 100% A great plane with potential was tuned to its very limits. One highlight of pistonengine planes.
But i said that they did it anyway to improve it and to achieve more superior weapons. They did not say "Hi folks, we have here the 20% better Spitfire XXXXVI but we are fair and do not produce here cause this is against fair play". The brits throw in any "better" weapon they could build. So any plane that could be in combat for the brits later as July 45 are useless, any plane in combat service in may 45 could be in the game for 3 months. How much planes could the brits produce in this time ? How many missions will the brits fly in em ? Hope you see the point about it. And if you jump 1 year (say from june45 to june44, then produce 3 months to september 44 this would no longer be historical (not even slightly)

Adnan, I do not know how familiar you are with Spitfire development, but there are two early models that shoot your opinion down in flames.

Firstly there was a version which was protoyped with a more powerful engine amongst other improvements. However, at that moment in time the decision was made that the new engine should be given to another plane. No production.

There was another version which was developed to meet the threat of the high-flying german JU86.

Anyone name these two early marks ?

You can not deny that the introduction of planes one side had did not fuel the developments of their opponents. My point is evidenced in abundance during the development of wartime planes.

Perhaps the best example would be the ever increasing development in equipment in the battle between the German NJG and Bomber Command.

Another example is the introduction of the Me109 E with the drop tanks. An improvement thought not needed until the Me110 was found failing in combat against the Allies.

If the Germans had produced new wonder planes, I have no doubt there would have been the pressure and the will for the Allies to send much improved countermeasures to the battlefront. Allied "wonder weapons" would have followed on months later.

Otis

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hi Otis...

the examples you said are true.
The high flying Spitfire was the Spit II, is used in bob and was the direct reaction to the Ju86

This is true

My point is slightliy different.
First - we speak about the game. Not real life. And in the game, the modifications for the allied side are inflexible to handle.
If you say, take the Spitfire 19 (XIX), and speed up the development time (with some minus on the other side), simulate the production-shortfall in engines and frames for the other spitfireproduction (like it is at the german side) i agree. But in the game you can´t do it. So any reaction you do in the game to new german planes have to "prepared". And how will you do so. One thing that never should happen is, that the allies get an advantage for new german planes. The only things in the game that could happen is, that the better latwar-piston engine planes that are equal or - under certain circumstances are better as the allied planes come into the game in numbers and/or earlier. If you counter this with "Über-fighters" of the allies it would be silly (no german player research anything if this make his situation worser)
Second, the jetproblem. The allies had no combat ready jet what could counter the me262. Simply cause they could not improve their bombers to B2-Stealths or B52s and the fighters (even if you would mass produce the p80) can not defend the bombers against the jets.
Some think, this is not correct (or maybe are fanboys) and the allies must get Überfighters to counter the jets.

So, any Spitfire you do in the game can´t battle the jets. Not if the spitfire is a realistic piston engine plane. We have not only the high speed of any plane but also the cruise speed. In this the jets are too fast. They are faster as the allied fighters are at high speed (maybe diving the jets will help). If the jet has problems with its engines or at landing/start, it is different. But in the air, attacking the bombers their air cover cannot help the bombers.

But doing some "fantasy-Spits" in the game that can intercept the jets are really fantasy... with that you can call Thunderbolt A-10 as tankkillers, in witp the CVNs and so on.

But also do not forget that both sides have hindsight (you can´t eliminate this). The allies can use it like the german side can.

As i wrote, the allies need a secret pool for emergency case (say, the american loose 3000 fighters in 6 weeks - i think they would increase production and would draw air groups from somewere else...
Also they would finish newer planes earlier. But not "german Ta152H kill our air cover in high alts - let us draw our own Überplane out of the hat". Cause how could such reaction be? The allied loose 3 : 1 fighters, for example. Do they change for that immediatly their production system to "better" planes (and don´t forget - are these planes really better against the new enemies ?) I can´t say so. But even then, how long do they need to produce such numbers that (in game terms) the allies get 300 + per month ?

As i said, it is very difficult. But because the german side can and have to change production (hindsight) this can happen. Even if the jets come "in time", they will come with 200 instead of 20 per month... and this means the bomber-problem will happen anyway. Only killing the same amount of german pilots (or better) will avoid the slaughtering of allied bombers at daylight.

So if we know this, the allies have to change their tactics (as the allied i never cared about AS in the game... 2 days of bad weather put it down...)

I also wrote something about the numbers of flying german planes. So my thoughts are for both sides.

And i did not mention that i wished that bomber command AND USAAFs should also could switch from night to day and viceversa (say for americans they vanish for 2 Months and then they could do it). If the germans can use their nightfighters as bomberkillers why not use american bombers for night bombing ? (if necessary they would have done it. The point is not that they didn´t do it but could they have done it)

[HMSWarspite]

Sorry, but you have a mistaken view of the invulnerabilty of the Me262. Yes, when at speed they were too fast for most interceptions to work. However, the fuel consumption at high speed was horrible, and they had to slow down somewhat. The engine handling was such that the pilot had to handle the throttles very carefully. I can't find my book, but there are several cases of 262s being shot down well away from their airfields (as well as many on landing/take-off). The 262 also can't turn well (thus calling into question your point on Meteors). There are cases of bounces in the combat zone where a P47 or 51, or Tempests caught 262s, and shot them down before they could pull away. I will find my book, and quote cases if you like. The gyro gunsite on the Allied fighters meant that hits could be scored out to almost 1000yds, and you only needed put one round into an engine, and the 262 had lost all advantage.

The 262 was undoubtably a plane well in advance of what it was facing, however it was not the wonder solution. If the Allies had to face it earlier, or in more numbers they would have developed improved a/c. The Allied fighter programs are full of aircraft that were cancelled or slowed dud to lack of need.

BTW the Spit II was not 'the high flying spit' it is a Spit MkI with a Merlin XII of 1175hp (intead of the 1000hp Merlin II) and entered production in June1940. It was an incremental improvement of the MkI.

I am not exactly sure what otisabuser2 is after. The Spit VI was a development of the V, and had an early pressure cabin, and a Merlin 47 of 1415hp. Only 100 were built. However the Spit VII was the true high alt Spit, ( a high alt version of the VIII). It had a 1720hp Merlin 64 or a 1475hp Merlin 71, with extended wing tips. Since the question was 'early Spit', I think he means the VII. (Ironically, Ju86 interceptions were often with the 'standard' MkiX, although stripped down)

The Early Spit with higher power engine, never produced would be the Spit III I think, with Merlin XX, reduced wing span, retractable tail wheel etc. The 1000 planned initial production were cancelled for the Spit V. The engine production went to the Hurricane II

[Hard Sarge]

Oh No, not another Spit Fan


[:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Oh No, not another Spit Fan


[:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

I am just your common, or garden aircraft grog. The Spit knowledge is because it is a nice plane. Now, we could also discuss Lancasters, Mosquitos, British infantry and Cruiser tanks, Battleships.......[muffled thud and dragging noise as forum members drag me off!]

Anyway, I am not sure I am right on the Spit VII, he might have meant something else!

[Roo]

Yeah, I realise my point didn't come across briliantly.

The entire CBTR campaign seems to be a "What If", at least from the German side.

I'm getting at why should the Germans be allowed to alter things to a greater extent than the Allies are allowed?




Without my books can't check or confirm some things, but there are 3 things I can remember about the engines used on the Meteor:

*Endurance was initially a problem. Once ther pilots were used to the plane, it had 90 mins endurance - roughly the same as the 262.

*The engines required half the man-hours of maintanence as required by the Merlin.

*The Meteor could engage V1s with ease. Piston-engined fighters had to use 120-grade fuel and flog the engines on maximum throttle.

Also found this on Wiki under the ME262:

Although the British Gloster Meteor jet had entered service in July 1944, the two aircraft never engaged in combat; the Meteor was initially restricted to the skies over Britain (where it engaged incoming V-1 flying bombs), whilst its later use over mainland Europe did not result in any combat. The first jet-jet dogfights would thus not take place until the Korean War. According to pilots who had the chance to fly both aircraft the Me 262 was superior apart from the engine, reliability and maneuverability. According to test pilot Roland Beamont the 262 had "a significantly higher critical Mach number than the British Gloster Meteor" in early versions although by the Meteor IV could reach "Mach Crit. 0.84" compared with the Critical Mach number of the 262 at Mach 0.83 allowing the Meteor to take the world speed record.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

ORIGINAL: Roo

Yeah, I realise my point didn't come across briliantly.

The entire CBTR campaign seems to be a "What If", at least from the German side.

Well - like in BOB (here it is less important) the whole game is from day 1 a what-if.
The main problem for people here is to look in a history book and then in such a game. They find a lot "mistakes" or "Bugs" that are´n´t bugs but alternate history caused by alternate events in the game.
If the allied does not destroy the fuel production centers in time, the germans can bring more planes to fight. Every "historican" cries about this, cause this did not happen. Yes - but it COULD happen if the allied side fail to do the damage they did historically.
This problem we never can solve
The second problem (the biggest one) is hindsight. As the allies i know that i have to destroy power plants to kill german production. But historically the allies do not know. They never tried to kill the energy, the tried to destroy the water supply for the ruhr. But never the energy supply. But in the game, i can half german production in 2 weeks IF i attack succsessfully the pps..
On the other side, playing the germans - why should i produce 20000 "old" piston engine fighters if i can get 5000 jets ? I know with the jets i can kill 1000s of bombers without playing fantasy. You can punish the german player for trying it - but the same should be true for the allies. But how do you handle it ? In the end - you have 2000 rules that must be followed. That is silly and boring.



I'm getting at why should the Germans be allowed to alter things to a greater extent than the Allies are allowed?

Here you have a game. A game with limitations. In this game, the germans can and have to change production. The allied side not. So the germans can freely change production - pay a price for it (some say this price is to low) and so they can manage to produce quite more newer planes as they did. But you can´t do this as the allies. Like in BOB you can´t produce more fighters but the brits can. But here it is not really important just because the time to play is shorter. So the game limitations cause some trouble.



Without my books can't check or confirm some things, but there are 3 things I can remember about the engines used on the Meteor:

*Endurance was initially a problem. Once ther pilots were used to the plane, it had 90 mins endurance - roughly the same as the 262.

So what ? Sorry to sound offending, but the meteor can´t help the allied "problem" with german jets. The endurance is too short to be useful as an escort plane, it is to fast for escorting but to slow to catch the me262. It can´t fly high and if you fly as high as you can the performance is so bad you do not want to use it. So, tell me, what purpose do the Meteor has in the game ?

*The engines required half the man-hours of maintanence as required by the Merlin.
Compared to what ? Do you compare the maintanence to piston engines ? to the german jet engines (at what stage ? the germans differ between 10 hours in the beginning to 80 hours at the end?) And what should this help with the allied fighter covers bombers problem ? We all accept and know that the allies have so much production capability that the maintanence of allied engines are no problem

*The Meteor could engage V1s with ease. Piston-engined fighters had to use 120-grade fuel and flog the engines on maximum throttle.
So what ? Sorry - this game is Allied bombers, covered by fighters vers. german fighters.

I agree that the Meteor could be a deadly weapon against german bombers. Unfortunatly, such bombers are NOT in the game. So again the question "Why should we put a bad plane (for the duties needed) in this game ?"

Also found this on Wiki under the ME262:

Although the British Gloster Meteor jet had entered service in July 1944, the two aircraft never engaged in combat;

yes - the meteor was much slower in any altitude... it could not climb or dive as fast. It was simply an inferior plane.

the Meteor was initially restricted to the skies over Britain (where it engaged incoming V-1 flying bombs),

yes - for that it was good. In the alt the V1 fly they could catch em... but the latest V1-models made trouble cause they were nearly too fast. (V1 speed jumped from 580 -to 640 to 720 km/h, the last speed was too fast for em. )

whilst its later use over mainland Europe did not result in any combat

Yes - simply cause no german bombers (like in the game) are in the air over britain.

The first jet-jet dogfights would thus not take place until the Korean War. According to pilots who had the chance to fly both aircraft the Me 262 was superior apart from the engine, reliability and maneuverability.

These pilots, did they test the me262 in war conditions ? You know, i can test a F16 with chinese pilots who do not understood half of the plane and listen to their result. I bet the f16 will be a bad plane compared to the chinese planes... untill the chinese planes fight against it in combat terms. Then they will be astonished.
Short - every after-war-testing with enemy equippment is a problem.
a.) if the enemy is superior, this will be not spoken openly and kept as a secret
b.) as long as you do not have the real war risks (for the engines, the plane, etc...) you do not get the same results. So any comparisation after war is not worth the paper. Only very elementary numbers you could use (like "Range under best circumstances", "max. speed (well, even here you get troubles)", "max alt"...

According to test pilot Roland Beamont the 262 had "a significantly higher critical Mach number than the British Gloster Meteor" in early versions although by the Meteor IV could reach "Mach Crit. 0.84" compared with the Critical Mach number of the 262 at Mach 0.83 allowing the Meteor to take the world speed record.

Well - the me262 did not hold the speed record - the me163 did this. So your source is maybe biased to the british plane ? Or is it worthless because of lack of information ?

To shorten it - we should and could discuss any plane, but the meteor is simply no plane that should be in the game. It has no "job" to do. If the meteor is in, i want the Sunderland too... we can´t use it but i like patrol planes [:)]

I know - i sound rude. But honestly, i just want to ask you one question. Did you play BTR ? From both sides ? If yes then i can´t understood your wishes about the Meteor. If no, try the original game. There is still no need for the Meteor in the game.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

I will try to explain my points - see in your post

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Sorry, but you have a mistaken view of the invulnerabilty of the Me262.

Well - no [:D]
Yes, when at speed they were too fast for most interceptions to work.

Not most but any interceptions - a small but important point.

However, the fuel consumption at high speed was horrible,

Sorry that i ask - you know the german Me262 ? Cause the opposite is true. At med or high alt the fuel consumtion at low speed is higher... at sea level, the fuel consumption is much higher AND here the fuel consumtion at high speed is higher. But i think we do not use the "US-Movie-German" that is so stupid to look allways in the wrong direction [;)]

And cause the german jet-fighter do not care about the allied fighters but the bombers they have no need for dogfight. So the disadvantages of the early jets (bad acceleration, bad climb rate) is not a point.

and they had to slow down somewhat.

Sorry - again this is not true. The very first german attacks were the traditional head to head combats... here they had to slow down, cause a collision speed of 1200 km/h is too fast. This and the 4-plane-schwarm was changed to above and from behind and 3 - plane-groups.
The facts are... the speed difference between bombers (around 300km/h) and jets (around 850km/h) is not so great, the "dive" throught the bombers and fire their 4 30mm cannons... they fly "with" the bombers" and can rip apart a few of em (or damage em so they fall behind). The air cover is simply to slow to catch up (only damaged or enginetroubled jets could be catched) as long as the jets turn in large curves (with no speed burned) and come back another time... the fighters are helpless and the bombers will be killed one after one... the good defence fire is not efficent against these fast planes (compared with the 500-550 km/h of the german piston engine planes)

The engine handling was such that the pilot had to handle the throttles very carefully.

Yes - at start or if they try to speed up. Once they have their combat speed they do not need to touch the throttle...

I can't find my book, but there are several cases of 262s being shot down well away from their airfields (as well as many on landing/take-off).

Yes - this is perfectly true.
Most me262 were BOMBERS, with 500kg bombs that limited the speed to 650 km/h (and this means the piston engine allied fighters could catch and kill em).
Or jets with engine failures (so only one engine work - now the speed is to 450km/h reduced and the jet is just an easy kill)
The 262 also can't turn well (thus calling into question your point on Meteors).

No - the problem of fast turns is true for both jets. But the Meteor has no german fat bombers to kill but at maximum german piston engine planes that could avoid quite easily the attacks of the Meteors (cause they were much slower as the me262)

There are cases of bounces in the combat zone where a P47 or 51, or Tempests caught 262s,

1.) it could happen (say 1000 flights 5times (with full operable jets)) if the german pilot make a mistake or a lucky shot.
2.) You mentioned Tempests and p47... that is an indicator for Fighterbombers (the above "blitzbomber" with reduced speed (with this limitations it was a "normal" very fast bomber, but not outside the range of the named planes - but in the game i do not need blitzbombers as the german)

and shot them down before they could pull away.

3.) I never said that there is no chance that some jets will be shot down. Say 1000 jets attack in one week the bombers... from that 10 get killed by interceptions, 60 by failures of the engines... 130 by defence fire/damages (caused the kills)
But sadly (or gladly, depends from what side you look) these 800 jets killed 700 bombers and 100 fighters (as a side product)... that end allied heavy bomber attacks at daylight.

I will find my book, and quote cases if you like.
You can clearly say what kind of jet this was ? A bomber, a recce, at start at landing ? With identified german groups they came from ?
As i said - if your fighters catch the bomber-jets i agree.... but i speak about jet-fighters.

The gyro gunsite on the Allied fighters meant that hits could be scored out to almost 1000yds,
Well you can allways hit something - the question is could you stop effectivly with this the liquidation of your bombers ? No.
and you only needed put one round into an engine, and the 262 had lost all advantage.

That is true

The 262 was undoubtably a plane well in advance of what it was facing, however it was not the wonder solution.

Nobody says so. The historical me262 was a plane that could not win the war. But it could have ended the heavy bomber attacks at med or high altitude, simply cause the allied losses are too high. in alt about 10000 feet the jets are faster but have limitations. But unfortunatly, in this alt the advantage of the allied planes (compared to the german piston engine fighters) is nil. And the flak losses are extreme.
But in the game it is a normal plane with no advantage against air cover and against bombers only the very heavy armarment is an advantage - i tested it with a FW190D (equipped with the same weapons - same results !)

If the Allies had to face it earlier, or in more numbers they would have developed improved a/c.

Yes - but these improvements do not help against the jets. The point is, the allies were far behind the germans in jets. The point about superior piston engine planes (like the Ta152H) is true. This plane in spring 44 (as an example) had caused a reaction (better allied planes earlier and in more numbers).
But with jets - no chance. Cause the most important thing is overlooked by most people here. The bombers are helpless and the fighters can´t defend em against the jets.

So we can now make the jet so bad that it is only a fast piston engine plane and can be catched easily or we accept the facts. If the german player can mount a lot jet fighters with adequate pilots, the air war will be extreme bloody for the bombers.

The allied player need tools in the game to catch the starting/landing planes and to mark the bases and try automatically to reach and destroy em. (with the planes) But we should not make a "Wonder-hyper-Plane" for the allies that can stop the me262. Such plane does not exist for est. 1 1/2 year in history (if we start the historical production as February 44 (that does not mean here do the planes fight)) We also ignore the fact that the allies developted their planes AFTER the war with the german knowledge (so we can´t say how they had been without this knowledge)
But this game is limited. Only the "we allies must have allways superior planes" is a little bit unneccessary and (more important) wrong.
If a new game is worth to be done german jets can´t be catched by air cover, but the allied should get an option to follow and hunt the jets at landing (if this is possible).
But to "create" the allied jet that can avoid the german bomber killer is fantasy. As last from my perspective. But i also say that german numbers (in the air) are way to much. Or that production numbers of allied planes (if they loose too much from a certain kind) are too low, too. The list of improvements are very long [:)]

The Allied fighter programs are full of aircraft that were cancelled or slowed dud to lack of need.

BTW the Spit II was not 'the high flying spit' it is a Spit MkI with a Merlin XII of 1175hp (intead of the 1000hp Merlin II) and entered production in June1940. It was an incremental improvement of the MkI.

I am not exactly sure what otisabuser2 is after. The Spit VI was a development of the V, and had an early pressure cabin, and a Merlin 47 of 1415hp. Only 100 were built. However the Spit VII was the true high alt Spit, ( a high alt version of the VIII). It had a 1720hp Merlin 64 or a 1475hp Merlin 71, with extended wing tips. Since the question was 'early Spit', I think he means the VII. (Ironically, Ju86 interceptions were often with the 'standard' MkiX, although stripped down)

The Early Spit with higher power engine, never produced would be the Spit III I think, with Merlin XX, reduced wing span, retractable tail wheel etc. The 1000 planned initial production were cancelled for the Spit V. The engine production went to the Hurricane II

[Hard Sarge]

hey Guys
Just a hint or request

if you are going to copy/quote another persons post, to reply to it, please do something to change your reply, so it is easy to see and tell who is saying what

it is HARD to follow when you get two or three of them all copied from the same source

[otisabuser2]

Roger that, HS.

Adnan said :

the Meteor was initially restricted to the skies over Britain (where it engaged incoming V-1 flying bombs),

whilst its later use over mainland Europe did not result in any combat

....so it was used in the theatre were are playing. Can we safely assume that it saw no opposition because the LW had been effectively removed from the skies near the front ?

We are told Allied pilots were unable to rack up huge numbers of kills due to the reason that they were unable to find enemy planes to engage.

Therefore if in a pbem game the Axis play does better than history, and conserves the LW, then in their game the Meteor would have a better chance of seeing combat.


Otis

[Roo]

May want to consider for all the vauntedness of the 262:

Of 1433 aircraft flown off the Manufacturers fields, only about 500 were flown in combat (lack of fuel, probably lack of engines - 25hr life on some of the Jumo 004Bs, possible lack of pilots?).

The Me262 killed approximately 150 aircraft for the loss of 100 of their own (This would have changed with experience and increased deployment of the R4M rockets).


As for the stuff on the Metor, that was an aside, hence the 3-4 line feeds before it :s

Basically, some people seemed to jump on it as a piece of junk, which it isn't. The Meteor was easier to fly and maintain than the Griffon engined Spitfires (yes, I made a mistake - Griffon engine, not Merlin engine; likewise it was 130 grade fuel not 120 grade fuel).

As for the speed - Me163 was rocket powered, not jet powered. Probably what the writer intended to say, but he didn't for whatever reason - usually speed records are split by engine type - cf. Mallard as the fastest [steam-engined] train. (PS. Me163 is probably the worst plane that could be in the game - 16 kills for all those losses?!)

[Hard Sarge]

(PS. Me163 is probably the worst plane that could be in the game - 16 kills for all those losses?!)

LOL think that is bad, try to use it in the game it is even worse

of course, try to get the AI to use it