A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's

[Alby]

The Soviets are 10 points less in troop experience than the Germans in 40, 41, and 5 points less in 42
are you saying the Germans are not better "enough" ?

[FlashfyreSP]

I pretend nothing. I see no problem with the ratings as they have been set for this Mod. Testing showed that the Soviet forces are able to actually fight in battles, not spend most of them running away as in the past. If the Germans had such an easy time of it, why didn't they reach Moscow before winter? Why were they unable to break out of Stalingrad?

Please don't pretend that every German soldier and tanker was a "superman" and that Russians couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and then tell me that's an accurate reflection of the entire war.

[Alby]

side note:
anyone who doesnt agree with ratings, 6 of us spent about 3 months on these.
disucussion went back and forth, these are what we came up with.
Raising some numbers caused the arty delay times to become skewed, lowering some made troops not fight.
Its easy to just look at numbers and dispute them until you actually start messing with them.

Also, anyone can use the "Mech Edit" program we used to adjust them to their hearts content.
we did best we could.
[:)]

[Major Destruction]

Twotribes makes some interesting comments. Based on the numbers that he has retreived from the Game and his assumptions, his argument is realistic and convincing.

However, the Game uses data that it does not report back to the Player including the Leadership and Troop Morale and Experience values and National characteristics; all of which affect each shot fired.

The terms 'experience' and 'morale' are simple words whose definitions are easy to find in any dictionary but in relation to the Game, these words gain a looser meaning.
'Experience' could be defined as the ability of the unit to score a hit on a target - or to avoid being hit by an incoming shot.
'Morale' could be defined as the willingness of a unit to continue to fight.

The combination of the two values plus the National Characteristic will determine how the unit performs. Certainly, taken alone, a 10 point difference is not great.

Secondly, SPWAW is a model of combat at the tactical or squad level. Strategic considerations do not enter into the model.

So where history tells us that German troops were able to defeat the Soviet armies in 1941 for whatever reasons, this was as much a result of strategy and good staff work, not to mention the shortcomings of the other side.

The individual soldier armed with his personal weapon was equally dangerous to the man in his sights regardless of which army he served. It is this that the Game attempts to model.

In places where the Soviets attempted to stop the German advance, the fighting was violent and casualties significant.
German generals devised methods to avoid these clashes and to advance through avenues that were less well defended; to encircle Soviet divisions and to force their surrender.
It is the former that we play out in our game and not the latter.

[junk2drive]

From what I have read over the years the ratings are on a 100 point scale. It is easy to think that 50 is the middle. IIRC countries at 50 won't make for a very good battle. IMO all the nations should be around 70 (or 80) and the plus and minus kept to within 5 (or 10) points of that. MO is based on making a playable GAME.
A player can still monkey around in the preference screen to adjust his enemy.

[Twotribes]

Ok since I said what I dont like, let me point out that overall the enhanced version is a fine product. Good work by all that gave their time and effort to make it what it is. The reality is not everyone will ever like everything. Obviously I like the game or I wouldnt be in here pointing out what I consider problems.

Anyone that continues to improve the game has my vote of thanks. I really like the way the AI appears to work differently. Before basicly you could set up to defend the middle of the map and reasonable expect that the bulk of ( depending on size of map and points spent) the AI forces to charge down the middle. Now it is a matter of figureing out which avenue it will take.

New OOB are always nice. And new equipment. If I gave the impression I was unhappy with anyone that spent their time making this, that wasnt my intent. I simply disagree on certain points.

[FlashfyreSP]

On the ratings range, it runs to 150 for Experience, and 244 for Morale. So 70 is just a little below average for EXP. 

[junk2drive]

I figured that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about [:D] but that someone that does know could not resist to respond with the correct numbers.
 
Thanks [&o]
 
On a 100 scale my post would make more sense but whether 0-100 or 500-1000 there has to be a starting point where the game can function. Too low a number for major nations will screw up the numbers for the lesser nations.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I figured that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about [:D] but that someone that does know could not resist to respond with the correct numbers.

Thanks [&o]

On a 100 scale my post would make more sense but whether 0-100 or 500-1000 there has to be a starting point where the game can function. Too low a number for major nations will screw up the numbers for the lesser nations.

Thats why we picked a certain number we would not start below, and if we went too high the arty delays got ridiculous...[X(]
[:)]

[pbhawkin1]

Hi,
In the Russian OOb I cant find the Stuart light tank anymore. Has it been deleted as a lend lease item (there are Matildas, Valentines and Grants)?

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: pbhawkins

Hi,
In the Russian OOb I cant find the Stuart light tank anymore. Has it been deleted as a lend lease item (there are Matildas, Valentines and Grants)?

Under misc menu
"lend lease" formations
July 42-45
perhaps you had year it wasnt available?

[pbhawkin1]

YOU are correct[:)]
I was looking in Kuly 1941[8|]
thanks

[264rifle]

Chiming in here a little late.

Flash, Just what rangefinding equipment dd these tanks have besides the eyeball, MK I[&:]

At best, to my uncertain knowledge, they had a stadiametric (fancy word for a tapered V etched in sight, usually with curved side/s. place object of known size into the V so it touched both sides a read off the range.) rangefinder. Many tanks did not have this.

Twotribes: part of the problem is force mix or dreaded rarity factor. Germans achieved many of their victories against T-26 and BT series tanks. What percentage of the Russian tanks did the T-34 and KVs make up in 1941 5%-7%?
See histories for the problems caused by even small groups of these tanks. ANd what the Germans sometimes used to stop them, like divisional artillery. That means 105 mm howitzers (using APHE rounds not heat) or 75mm and 100mm feildguns. When tanks have penetrated your lines to where the divisional artillery was REALLY sited as oppossed to our games (try 1 to 2 entire game maps to the rear) I am not sure that qualifies as a "little difficulty"

Another problem is the command and control problem. The game players have too much control over their units vrs real life. This goes for all nations but especially countries like Russia and the minor countries. The LACK of radios ment that attack plans were simple in the extreme and NOT subject to change during the attack. Tank "A" spots a group of AT guns in the woods to it's right??? Tank "A" has NO WAY to tell platoon commander or company commander. Even if Tank "A" could notifiy Company commander The company commander has NO WAY (short of trying to wave signal flags) to issue new orders (even "turn right and shoot at the trees") to the rest of the tanks in the company. This resulted in Russian tank units bypassing German units that then shot them up from the side or rear. Not a fun Game.

To Get the game to truely represent combat on the eastern front in 1941 The Russian side would almost have to be given ALL it's orders at the start of the game. All destinations for mobile units, ALL fire missions for Artillery (hexes and turns on which to fire) and then let the game play out. Not much fun[>:]

Note that this "problem" might work better on the defence than on the offence. Sound like what really happened a little better[&:]

Trying to simulate this lack of communtication using morale, experience , and even leadership ratings leads to the subjective problems the gamers have been arguing about.

Again trying to balance a game that is FUN or at least interesting to play vrs Historic just might not possiable.[:(]

[FlashfyreSP]

As an example, the T-34 had a TOD-6 x2.5 telescopic sight, later replaced by the TMFD sight. In 1942, T34s were often driven straight from the plants to the front lines and were without gunsights. Hard to do this in the gaem without creating a new unit with 0 Rangefinding.

Note that I am not saying that Russian optics were equal to the German gear; far from it. Much of the Russian production of optic glass was substandard; still, crews learned to use them as best they could. Good gunners became adept at gauging range and angles, as did commanders.

However, in game terms the Ratings used are mostly an abstraction of the overall ability of that particular Unit Class when compared to other Unit Classes. With a limited range of values that the game code recognizes (0-9, IIRC from Mike), a difference of 1 is huge. So the Tank ratings are higher than those of, say, an SP Gun, because the tank has things besides just the optics that work in its favor for Fire Control and Rangefinding. These ratings are an amalgamation of various factors; things like turret traverse mechanism, vehicle stability, weapon mount, as well as optics and others.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: pbhawkins

YOU are correct[:)]
I was looking in Kuly 1941[8|]
thanks

Kuly??
you really were looking in the wrong month!
[:D]
[;)]

[soldier]

If your not happy with the current ratings Two Tribes, you can use DesertRats Program to change them. He also has a patch of the H2H values which are slightly tougher on the soviets from 41 to 43.