RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

[el cid again]

Have reinstated the FM-2 (F4F-8) to USN service. It differs from the same plane in FAA service.
The FAA loaded it down with rockets, reducing performance, while the US plane is hotter and has
more range. This was a big deal - because many units needed updating - and I had not got Editor
6 to work until just now. FM-2 has a range of 15/5/3 vice 13/4/3 for all other Wildcat variations.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The Dutch Martin Bombers (139?) in EOS have been given an upgrade option to the US B-25 - but it is the rare H model instead of the numerous C/D model. Should be the C/D model as it is highly plausible for the US to equip an ally with those, unlikely the US would give up the rare H model.

I found these in the database:

Airgroup Slots 1727-1735, has Upgrade = 115, I am suggesting Upgrade = 114.

[el cid again]

Actually, the plane was a British version - and the US never supplied it at all. Someone wanted to change it over to a US version for reasons of replacements. That made the choice the later plane because - otherwise - the units could upgrade far sooner than they did. I will happily change it back to the Mitchell, but either way it is not going to be an easy upgrade to implement. I have the impression that is very historical. The Dutch were the worst of the European Imperialists - or tied for worst with the Belgians (see the Kongo) - and we were not keen on helping them regain their colonies. A Marine unit was formed up too late to see action - and one has the impression that was not for lack of Dutch volunteers - but rather the politics implied by giving their equipment higher priority.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

At the beginning of the war, that Fiji unit with Catalina' should start with Singapore aircraft instead.:

"no. 5 flying boat squadron
The first No. 5 Squadron was formed in Fiji in November 1941 and disbanded in November 1942.

Aircraft: Singapores.

Commanding Officers Squadron Leader E. M. Lewis November–December 1941
Flight Lieutenant W. J. Craig December 1941–February 1942
Flight Lieutenant R. H. Hickson February–March 1942
Squadron Leader R. J. R. H. Makgill April–November 1942

A new No. 5 Squadron was formed in Fiji in July 1944. It was reformed after the war and is at present stationed in Fiji, operating in the maritime role.

Aircraft: Catalinas

Well - OK. But since there is no Singapore in the plane set - and since it is a wholly obsolete aircraft -
this is not directly soluable. It would appear that SOME sort of recon is appropriate at Fiji during that first critical year.

OK - lets use the Vincent. It is already in RNZAF service, is obsolete, and is an armed recon plane. It has similar range, and the only big problem is - it is not a flying boat! It can upgrade to a Cat. A player who wants to may disband it in Dec 1942, but I see no need to do recommend a house rule.

The Singapore WAS in the game..Was it removed to make room for something else?
Of course it was obsolete, but maybe 20 other planes were as well..I never considered that an option when seeking historical accuracy?
If the plane has been removed (in RHS), I would prefer you suggestion of using a more (range-wise) accurate Vincent, than to see a Vincent with a range of "4"..
Upgrading it to a Cat would be acceptable (to me)..I think the Vincent pilots are smart enough to know not to land in the water.[:)]

[el cid again]

Yes the Singapore was in CHS and yes, I personally removed it. It was used by very few units for very little time, and if one corrected its statistics, it was almost unbelievably horrible. Worse, it seems by that time to have had perfectly awful operational readiness, and might better be simulated by nothing than anything at all! I wished to add a significant number of planes - and did - including types never before present in any mod - (e.g. Long range transports, gliders, ultra long range recon planes, a later version of PV called Harpoon, numbers of others) - and there are a remarkable number of Allied slots dedicated to obsolete planes always phased out in weeks. I tried to get rid of some even worse Dutch planes, but found they had significant historical roles - awful though they may be. So poor Singapore was one of the few planes available to delete - and it had done nothing of note in any area.

As long as the FUNCTION performed is preformed, and add to that the unit upgrades to end up with the historical plane - I think the compromise involved is at least acceptable - perhaps even elegant. I have implemented it already and I value the suggestion we not leave the unit with the Cat. But adding the plane is difficult - there is no art in the set - there are almost no slots - and it is wise to leave some for modders requirements. It is hard to see why it might be an important plane? It would only be relegated - so lump it in with the Vildebeeste/Vincent - which presumably also will be relegated pretty quick.

However, you may propose a different plane already in set. Otherwise, please indicate what it did that is historically important - what significant number of units used it - and / or why players might actually select it to use (assuming you can show any significant number was available). My data seem to indicate it was wholly obsolete, never built in numbers, not in production, and barely in service at all, with no operational record of any significance. Is that not all correct? Historical accuracy is relative: we cannot approach including all aircraft types - so we must compromise in favor of the more significant ones - and let others be represented by them.

I am not sure if it helps you much - but understand that RHS gives Vildebeeste TOO MUCH range - all non-fighters and non-land transports have ranges increased by 27%. This is because we wanted a more accurate operational range. The code figures everything is like a fighter plane - and limits you to 33% for extended range missions. Bombers get more like 42%. 42 is 27% greater than 33, so we increased the range of the Vildebeeste (and all other bombers and recon planes). [Fighters remained as is - code has it right. ALL fighters - fighter bombers - night fighters - since they may preform fighter ops. Transports LOST range - since code gave them 50% - and that is wholly unrealistic. You don't get 50% of no load transfer range when you have a load. We reduced them by 8%.] Anyway - the present Vildebeeste/Vincent has too much range by strict WITP standards - and probably a fairly good operational range. But I will look up your Singapore again, and the Vincent, and also call for a suggestion.

I need it now. I am losing control of the files today. I will upload x.37 and send it off for a week or more of data washing/cleaning - while I turn to the map and pwhex issues for Level 7.

[el cid again]

OK - Here you go:

The Short Singapore - of which 4 were handed over to RNZAF at the actual city of Singapore on 4 Oct 1941 - the last operational examples in RAF (so it no longer is in service with RAF when the scenario begins) - has a range of 1000 miles at 125 mph. Left unmodified, that would amount to 16 hexes - for an extended range = 5.

The Vildebeeste has a normal range of 630 miles. The Vincent - in spite of allegations above - has actually less range - only 625 miles normally. We should have increased that 630 to 800 = 14 hexes - for an extended range = 4.

But I have new data. The Vildebeeste and Vincent had a transfer range of 1250 miles - correspoinding rather well to 1270 miles if we extended the range of the Singapore by 27%. So I will increase the range of the Vildebeeste/Vincent to 21 hexes = 7 extended range. Acceptable?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Actually, the plane was a British version - and the US never supplied it at all. Someone wanted to change it over to a US version for reasons of replacements. That made the choice the later plane because - otherwise - the units could upgrade far sooner than they did. I will happily change it back to the Mitchell, but either way it is not going to be an easy upgrade to implement. I have the impression that is very historical. The Dutch were the worst of the European Imperialists - or tied for worst with the Belgians (see the Kongo) - and we were not keen on helping them regain their colonies. A Marine unit was formed up too late to see action - and one has the impression that was not for lack of Dutch volunteers - but rather the politics implied by giving their equipment higher priority.

No, no, you got me wrong. The British Mitchell (UK version of B-25) is the wrong plane. It should be the US B-25C/D. Here is the rationale.

- The British do not get that many Mitchell III's in PTO. They would not be able to lend them to the Dutch expat's.

- The US does not get many B-25H, and the H model is advanced. They would not lend them to the Dutch expat's.

- The US will upgrade away from B-25C/D model to B-25H and B-25J models. When numbers of B-25C/D were freed up from upgrades, the US would then be in a position to lend some B-25C/D to the Dutch expat's.

Sid, I think this is a far more rational and realistic approach than giving the Dutch pilots advanced planes later in the war. In fact, I think it should be included in all the RHS scenarios, not only EOS.

I also noticed that you changed the upgrade path for all the Dutch fighter planes to the US P-40N model. It used to be the Australian Kittyhawk I. I think the Kittyhawk I is a better choice for the same reasons as I listed for the bombers above (Australia has enough that they can lend some I model planes once the Kittyhawk III model becomes available, and possibly a few before then depending on loss rate).

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, since you are talking about ranges, I have a question. One or two months ago, when you asked people about "aircraft ranges" you mentioned that you wanted to increase the range of the Zero (an exception) => extended range = 11 => we could simulate the raids Rabaul => Guadalcanal. But I can see the extended range is still 10 (in both 5.x and 6.x). You changed your mind? Maybe I missed that post.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, since you are talking about ranges, I have a question. One or two months ago, when you asked people about "aircraft ranges" you mentioned that you wanted to increase the range of the Zero (an exception) => extended range = 11 => we could simulate the raids Rabaul => Guadalcanal. But I can see the extended range is still 10 (in both 5.x and 6.x). You changed your mind? Maybe I missed that post.

No - but I didn't implement it correctly either. I got mixed up. BEFORE we added drop tanks, the Zero was 15 minutes flying time (at transfer range) from 33 hex range (= 11 extended range). So I added 15 minutes. But NOW the Zero has a drop tank, and there is NO way to figure that out except in a test bed - which I did not do. I needed to add more minutes to the reduced value now in the field (because drop tanks add to it - in this case a single drop tank).
I forgot the difference was before drop tanks were factored into the field value. Thanks.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs




No, no, you got me wrong. The British Mitchell (UK version of B-25) is the wrong plane. It should be the US B-25C/D. Here is the rationale.

- The British do not get that many Mitchell III's in PTO. They would not be able to lend them to the Dutch expat's.

REPLY: So you say - in game logic probably logically. But I am talking IRL. Different kettle of fish.

- The US does not get many B-25H, and the H model is advanced. They would not lend them to the Dutch expat's.

REPLY: Maybe. Probably not in game logic - players shed themselves of 2E bombers when the 4E are available in numbers. Maybe - in RHS - with rockets and heavy loadouts - and the ability to work on a smaller field - players might keep a B-25G or H? But this leaves me with the problem of timing: the upgrade to a C is way too soon - as in immediately.

- The US will upgrade away from B-25C/D model to B-25H and B-25J models. When numbers of B-25C/D were freed up from upgrades, the US would then be in a position to lend some B-25C/D to the Dutch expat's.

Sid, I think this is a far more rational and realistic approach than giving the Dutch pilots advanced planes later in the war. In fact, I think it should be included in all the RHS scenarios, not only EOS.

REPLY: I completely agree that we are talking all scenarios - not just EOS. Whatever we do will be in all of them - as most feedback here has turned out to cause. FYI I gave the Canadian patrol squadrons the Vildebeeste/Vincent to simulate the Stranraer - once we got the range to being identical. Simulates well the horribly obsolete planes used in 1941. Upgrade to Catalina, of course.

I also noticed that you changed the upgrade path for all the Dutch fighter planes to the US P-40N model. It used to be the Australian Kittyhawk I. I think the Kittyhawk I is a better choice for the same reasons as I listed for the bombers above (Australia has enough that they can lend some I model planes once the Kittyhawk III model becomes available, and possibly a few before then depending on loss rate).

REPLY: Probably more likely - Dutch planes came from CW - not the US - in most cases. In time - folded in.

OK: All scenarios except EOS were still upgrading to Mitchell III. So I converted EOS to do the same. But I increased the replacement rate for the Mitchell III - which was conservatively done - more or less reflecting a US decision to supply more to the Allied food chain - and the CW player may decide which units/nations get them? This solves the date problem - it is the same date as the H model - but it is a different configuration - also the historical one - and so not in dispute that it was available to allies.

[el cid again]

It now appears 6.37 will release tomorrow. This is the "final" version of Level 5/6 releases -
and I am surrendering control of the file set for data washing while I attempt to do Level 7.

Level 7 - or Level 6 if it is not possible to complete - will release in difinitive form
on Dec 7 2006. It will at least be thoroughly checked for eratta. It may be 6x scenarios will
be Level 7 - otherwise we will go with Level 6 and either drop Level 7 or put it on a long term
development slow program. This Level 7 - which includes the former Level 8 material -
is done map wise - and OB research wise - but involves a daunting amount of pwhex and location
file work - considerable ship file work - and possibly some air group file work. These must be
integrated with each other. And we know the maps will need some tweeking - at least near
Panama. I won't be able to be distracted by other file work because I am not file owner - so I will focus
on this.

Ideally we will be able to cease work and play on 7 December.

Level 9 has been abandoned. A total map rework is a gigantic project.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, since you are talking about ranges, I have a question. One or two months ago, when you asked people about "aircraft ranges" you mentioned that you wanted to increase the range of the Zero (an exception) => extended range = 11 => we could simulate the raids Rabaul => Guadalcanal. But I can see the extended range is still 10 (in both 5.x and 6.x). You changed your mind? Maybe I missed that post.

Folded in with correctly calculated endurance WITH drop tanks.

[m10bob]

Sid sez: "My data seem to indicate it was wholly obsolete, never built in numbers, not in production, and barely in service at all, with no operational record of any significance. Is that not all correct? Historical accuracy is relative: we cannot approach including all aircraft types - so we must compromise in favor of the more significant ones - and let others be represented by them. "

If here you are referring to the Singapore, you are completely correct.My info is that the few Australia had were commercial planes loaned to the goverment, not for military purpose whatsoever. (Kinda like using trainers for fighters!)
If you are referring to the Vincent, I have provided several quadrons which used them,some into 1943, and that would mean you don't have time to read the forums...[;)]

[JeffroK]

The Mitchells used by 18 (NEI) Sqn RAAF were B-25D models and used the RAAF numbering system A47-?? (Later they got B-25J's)
 
A couple of US serial numbers to check from are 42-87607 & 43-3422.
 
(www.adf-serials.com)
 
I believe the RAF gave the Dutch Sqns aircraft in Europe but not in the Pacific.

[witpqs]

Thanks Jeff. I feel the US inventory is the better route.

[JeffroK]

Only if you are a yanqui!!
 
If you go to the website, hit the "RAAF Serials No 2" button and look down the left column for A47- Mitchell ypu will find every aircraft used by the RAAF including their US Serial number

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Sid sez: "My data seem to indicate it was wholly obsolete, never built in numbers, not in production, and barely in service at all, with no operational record of any significance. Is that not all correct? Historical accuracy is relative: we cannot approach including all aircraft types - so we must compromise in favor of the more significant ones - and let others be represented by them. "

If here you are referring to the Singapore, you are completely correct.My info is that the few Australia had were commercial planes loaned to the goverment, not for military purpose whatsoever. (Kinda like using trainers for fighters!)
If you are referring to the Vincent, I have provided several quadrons which used them,some into 1943, and that would mean you don't have time to read the forums...[;)]

The discussion was in re Singapore. In the same class is the Stranraer. The Vildebeeste/Vincent is a different kettle of fish - is used in a number of places - and for a significant period of time. Further - I am using it to simulate the Singapore and the Stranraer - which have a similar patrol range. The types are combined, and they share speed, range and defensive armament, but the Vildebeeste are torpedo bombers while the Vincent is a level bomber. You cannot see it, but the units with Vincent only carry bombs. These are found in RNZAF and RCAF service, for sure - and I think there is one unit at Aden in RAF.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Thanks Jeff. I feel the US inventory is the better route.

The problem is timing. This would permit upgrading even in 1941! It would permit instant upgrading even before the units had engaged in defense of the DEI. This is gamey IMHO. Further, it appears that the Dutch got some planes via India from RAF in 1943 (or my memory is faulty). We could go the route of no possible upgrade. But the Mitchell is justified by at least one unit. But doing it without messing up the date means we had to go with the RAF version. Further - that probably is better than the H model. But the C/D is not an option - unless you don't care about facing them in 1941 - or make a house rule (which I prefer not to do).

[JeffroK]

The Dutch cant upgrade until May 42 unless you changed that as well. (And I dont like House rules anyway)
 
The problem isnt with 18 NEI Sqn, more with the units which players evacuate to SEAC or Australia, maybe an answer is to make these Sqns ineligible for upgrade, there isnt an historical precedent. They would then wither on the vine, or be based in Hobart on ASW search.
 

[witpqs]

Actually, It's UK units that cannot upgrade until May '42. Dutch units cannot upgrade until July '42.