AltHist-A: Shall We Try Again?

[Marshal Villars]

SERIOUSLY: I NEED YOUR INPUT

...because Eric and I are discussing this right now.

Some people (in other long forgotten threads and emails to Eric) have complained that they would like to have the option of playing PBEMs once other players have dropped out. Said in another way, they want to keep the files, and simply play on--without the other players.

This raises the question, if one could do this it would mean that you could just open the files of your enemy you are currently playing against and look right in. What do you think about this? Or do you think that something like this should only be allowed if you collect everyone's password?

Now, close your eyes, and imagine the situation. And write what you think. Players can look at each other's PBEM files. Ours, yours, your allies, etc.

The upside is you can play on in your PBEMs when other people drop out. The downside is no guaranteed privacy.

[IronWarrior]

Sorry not sure I understand, couldn't this be achieved by not using passwords? or am I not getting the point?

[Marshal Villars]

What if you could open your opponent's PBEM file and just look at it? Check his stacks of units, his treaties, etc. No one would know.

There is currently talk of implementing such a system because someone complained that not being able to continue dead PBEMs "would ruin the game for them."

[IronWarrior]

Ah I see what you're saying now. I would be against it. Maybe an option to disallow using passwords could be added for anyone who wants it, to be decided before starting a game.

I think most players would give up their password if asked, don't think this is necessary.

[montesaurus]

I agree with Iron Warrior, most players would give up their password to allow the game to continue!
In regards to the new mod, the only thing I presently disagree with is the low forage values in the Ukraine area of Russia. This historically was the bread basket of Russia.
I will have to look at the other areas some more before I can decide. But definitely count me in if you guys decide to try it!

[montesaurus]

Wasn't No Frills redone by Matto when we had that issue? He had some way to put the files together to obtain, or reset the passwords if I remember correctly.

[vaalen]

I like version 3 the best. You've really done some fine work here. Russia, the balkans and spain are now the forage deathtraps they were during the period, while the rich fiedls of France, Germany and Northern italy are also there. I do think that provinces which were historical magazines, such as Bessarabia, should be supply points.
One question I have is with Luxemburg. While there may have been a rifle plant there, troops cannot eat rifles or bullets. I think supply points should be linked to food as well as weapons. I would also add Belgrade as a supply point, as I understand the Turks would build up supplies there for wars against Austria, taking advantaage of the Danube. I believe each major power would have at least one supply center on each border with a major rival.

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

Okay. For the next 48 hours I want you guys to comment on the three supply map versions I have posted at this thread...

I am very interested in your thoughts on the location of the supply points (the triangles!!!).

tm.asp?m=2288219&mpage=1&key=?

COMMENT ONLY ON THE ONES WHICH SAY "ALTHIST VERSION". ONLY POST YOUR COMMENTS IN THIS (ALTHIST) FORUM NOT IN THAT THREAD! It keeps things simpler. I posted the images there, because I am not limited to less than 200k there, like I am in here.

Tell me which density of supply points is the best in your opinion. Or if anything is missing or too much.

You will notice that there are three versions of the map, each with less and less restrictive criteria on which provinces get the supply points. I won't tell you which one is my favorite yet.

[vaalen]

I think the low forage values for the Ukraine may reflect both the propensity for the tough Ukrainian peasants to hide their harvests from foragers, and the fact that the Russians would almost always devastate these regions when an invader was near. Also, while the soil was very fertile, the constant wars and rebellions really wreaked havoc on the harvest and the population.

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

I agree with Iron Warrior, most players would give up their password to allow the game to continue!
In regards to the new mod, the only thing I presently disagree with is the low forage values in the Ukraine area of Russia. This historically was the bread basket of Russia.
I will have to look at the other areas some more before I can decide. But definitely count me in if you guys decide to try it!

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

What if you could open your opponent's PBEM file and just look at it? Check his stacks of units, his treaties, etc. No one would know.

There is currently talk of implementing such a system because someone complained that not being able to continue dead PBEMs "would ruin the game for them."

I think we should be able to rely on the honor system. If I need a password to prevent my felllow players from cheating, then I do not want to play with them. Everyone who takes part in such a game should act with honor.

[vaalen]

I would really miss you as the Tsar. Your actions in the game have been extremely entertaining and challenging, and your diplomatic actions are truly Russian in character and scope. Are you sure you are not related to the Romanovs?

Seriously, you must do as you see fit, but our game would be much poorer without you.

[Marshal Villars]

The fact that modern players know the Ukraine as the "bread basket" of Russia is interesting. This is 1792. Not Stalinist Russia.

In my reading again and again and in my interview with Dr. Lynn, who has written books on logistics and specializes in 1600s and 1700s France, I was told and lead to believe that population density is the most important factor in determining the ability of a region to support armies. To feed people, you need a certain number of calories lying around. Which means they can be "requisitioned." If the Ukraine would have had more calories lying around they would have had more people. But they didn't. At that time, the Ukraine was neither 1) densely populated, nor was it 2) well off. I used maps of populaton density from 1700 and 1900 to guess 1800 values and came up with this. I can't change the foraging numbers for Ukraine in good conscience. Wealthy regions had more variety in their calories, and the kinds of calories they consumed were often fancier (beef instead of endless grains).

One reason population density mattered was the amount of time it took and the distance your men had to travel to get to these sources. The more spread out it was, the harder it was to get at what was on hand.

I have been considering the addition of Belgrade as well. And I may drop Luxembourg.

But such massive border fortresses are things which were built up over the course of 20 years. The scenario would work with 10 year games, but if we stretch to 20 years, in that time frame players should be able to build their own massive depots. But that is outside of the ability of the game to show right now.

I really need to get Terje and Montesaurus on to the playtesting group. And if we lose Anthropoid, we will need yet another playtesting/AltHist player so we can move this into the discussion area for the project and speak freely.

[Marshal Villars]

So, am I correct in saying that it sounds like there are players in here who don't care if someone could access your files without your password? Just so that on the off-chance that one day he can play the PBEM against himself if you lose interest? Or so he can run 100 campaign simulations using the situation as is to make sure he does everything correctly for his upcoming campaign against you? Accessing your secret treaties, etc.? And you feel that trust is an adequate safe-guard?

[Mus]

REGARDING SUPPLY POINT VERSIONS:

Can we create a Version 4, which would be a split the difference between 2 and 3 with Russia and the Turks having a total of 2 more supply points? I would put the two Russian supply points in St. Petersberg and Kiev, and the Turkish ones smack in the middle of Greece and the other right in the middle of Anatolia. The other areas of the map with plentiful supply should just have the red sources deleted.

I find version 2 too sparse in the east and version 3 to create a few too many "Artistic license" points everywhere.

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

I think most players would give up their password if asked, don't think this is necessary.

I agree. I handed my seat in 109 to Kingmaker fairly smoothly. We have replaced other players in the past (guy that Anthropoid took over for in Another PBEM) without a problem as well.

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

And if we lose Anthropoid, we will need yet another playtesting/AltHist player so we can move this into the discussion area for the project and speak freely.

Is Matto in there? How about any of the other COG beta testers? We should have a big recruiting pool.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

So, am I correct in saying that it sounds like there are players in here who don't care if someone could access your files without your password?

I hope to hell not. There is already a great deal of trust involved in playing this game. If anything security/anticheat aspects should be tightened up.

[Mus]

LOL.

Apparently Villars out of control fontsize took over my entire post.

[Marshal Villars]

LOL

Yes. My font size is out of control, but Eric and I are hotly debating this right now. I will impact PBEM heavily. And I am concerned we will get a "trust based" PBEM system! I am looking for input now and people ignored my first posting!

[Mus]

We already have a trust based system where the Spanish player can remerge until he gets a turn he likes.* If anything controls to prevent cheating need to be added, not even more trust added into the system.

*Observation of fact, not an accusation.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Mus

REGARDING SUPPLY POINT VERSIONS:

Can we create a Version 4, which would be a split the difference between 2 and 3 with Russia and the Turks having a total of 2 more supply points? I would put the two Russian supply points in St. Petersberg and Kiev, and the Turkish ones smack in the middle of Greece (Athens?) and the other right in the middle of Anatolia (Konya?). The other areas of the map with plentiful supply should just have the red sources deleted as they are superfluous.

I find version 2 too sparse in the east and version 3 to create a few too many "Artistic license" points everywhere.

Just wanted to quote this so it wouldn't get lost in the mix. This is my opinion.

[Marshal Villars]

REALLY! The Spanish player can re-merge until he gets a turn he likes! Of course! LOL

How can we prevent this with the project I am working on? Any ideas? From other games?

I feel like we need to sell a separate add-on PBEM pack so that Eric feels like he isn't doing so much for the PBEM community (which is a small % of sales).

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: Marshal Villars

So, am I correct in saying that it sounds like there are players in here who don't care if someone could access your files without your password?

I hope to hell not. There is already a great deal of trust involved in playing this game. If anything security/anticheat aspects should be tightened up.

I am not even going to try to match your font size. Is there some reason for those giant fonts?

This is my first email game. From the response of Villars and Mus, it seems that the honor system does not work here. That is very disappointing.

I would think that the cheaters would realize that they are cheating themselves out of a realistic gaming experience, along with cheating everyone else.

Since I respect the superior knowledge of PBEM held by Villars and Mus, I will change my response to "Security first". Meaning No to any change that would increase security risk.