Avian aggression leads to murder most fowl - Sqz(A) vs. Chickenboy(J)

[SqzMyLemon]

Sept. 23/42:

India:

Japanese bombers get reacquainted with British 23rd AA Bde. at Asanol. It doesn't go well for the Japanese, and the Intelligence Report indicates 14 bombers downed on the day, Who needs CAP assigned when this badboy is around? AAR follows:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 23, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 254th Armoured Brigade, at 53,34 (Asansol)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 96
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 36
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 13 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 3 destroyed by flak
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 8 damaged
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied ground losses:
100 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 21 (3 destroyed, 18 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb
23 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 23rd AA Bde ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking 7th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 23rd AA Bde ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 23rd AA Bde ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking 7th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking 23rd AA Bde ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...
Also attacking Americal Infantry Division ...
Also attacking 254th Armoured Brigade ...

China:

Despite no supply, the Chinese still hold near Tienshui. The next attack should cause the rout, but this force has done wonders holding up the Japanese juggernaut. AAR follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 81,39 (near Tienshui)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 104310 troops, 992 guns, 313 vehicles, Assault Value = 3340

Defending force 40646 troops, 171 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1235

Japanese adjusted assault: 2396

Allied adjusted defense: 1969

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2308 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 367 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 73 disabled
Guns lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3011 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 317 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 15 (1 destroyed, 14 disabled)

Assaulting units:
37th Division
39th Division
17th Division
3rd Division
68th Division
51st Engineer Regiment
35th Division
32nd Division
69th Division
26th Division
4th Mortar Battalion
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Army
13th Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
12th Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
57th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
14th Group Army
34th Group Army

It really is too bad. If there was just enough supply on hand, the Chinese could actually be fun to play rather than simply a punching bag for the Japanese. I really am surprised Andre has not made a move on Tuyun. It never draws supply, just like Ankang, and he could of unhinged my position months ago.

Thoughts:

Just waiting for Jorhat to be liberated and then I call operation "Risky Business" complete. Priority will be to consolidate the rail line and build up the airbases to allow air transport supply runs to China.

Allied forces are moving on Jamshedpur. So far, the eight Japanese LCU's at the base haven't moved. Will Andre stay and fight, or withdraw to Calcutta. If Jamshedpur is given up, I will shift the forces earmarked for Ceylon back to Southern India. It's time to liberate the island and get the Allied Navies back into the fight in the IO.

[JocMeister]

Oh, how I love those AA BDEs! [&o]

PS, Not sure in DBB but in Vanilla the 3 NZ AA BDEs upgrades to something like 96 heavy AA guns. Erik once did a port attack where I had two of those...that was fun to watch! [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

Sept. 24/42:

A quiet turn with just Japanese bombings in China and unopposed Japanese sweeps in India.

I'm starting to get a clearer picture of Japanese dispositions on Ceylon. Colombo and Trincomalee show roughly 70 and 90 fighters respectively. Allied preparations in Southern India are going well with only three bases still Japanese controlled. I have stood down Allied 4E operations in India to conserve strength for the upcoming battle to destroy Japanese air power on Ceylon. By all appearances, Andre is going to defend Ceylon.

There is still no sign of Japanese withdrawal from Jamshedpur and the number of enemy LCU's at Calcutta remains at 18. I will attempt to flank Jamshedpur to see if that induces withdrawal from the base. I am planning on advance on Chittagong to threaten seaborne withdrawal from Calcutta with Allied LBA attacks. To put further pressure on Andre to withdraw from Calcutta, I need to accelerate the liberation of Ceylon. The threat of direct Allied naval interdiction in the IO, based out of Colombo, could pose further complications for a seaborne withdrawal from Calcutta.

I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

[mind_messing]

I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

Running for India when China looks ready to fall seems to be the standard move for the Allies at this stage already. Looking at your position that doesn't really look like an option.

As I see it, you've two options:

1. Have the Chinese go out with a bang: leave 2k in Chungking to hold the forts, rush everything else down the mountain passes to Burma in the hope that he is skimping on garrisons here. Detach 1k AV to act as a rearguard in case the Japanese troops in China pursue.

Sure, the Chinese won't get supply, but 100,000 men without supply fight as well as 25,000 men with supply. You can over-run weak and isolated Japanese units and generally disrupt operations. Chances of getting troops to safety in India are slim, but the chance is there.

2. Settle down for Chungkingrad.

Looking at the map, and the poor rear-area cleanup in India, I'd go for option #1.

Plus, it will be cool to see the Chinese hoards rampaging over Burma. Rangoon or bust!

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

Good afternoon, lemon-san,

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

Good afternoon, lemon-san,

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

+1

Nice to see you here Francois!

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

Good afternoon, lemon-san,

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

The Chinese aren't dead if they abandon Chungking. There's nothing stopping them from taking the long route to India. Sure, it's a march over terrible terrain, it takes forever and lots of troops will be lost along the way, but replacements are the one thing the Chinese have plenty of.

And they'll make it to Burma without much difficulty - if each unit takes a different route from Paoshan to Ledo, the only way that the Japanese will get them all is if they set up a picket-line from Katha to east of Ledo.

On the contrary, if the remain in Chungking their death is assured. Once they're destroyed and Chungking falls, say goodbye to the Chinese for the rest of the game.

Sqz, you need to ask yourself what is worth more: having 350 odd Chinese squads/month for the rest of the game, or delaying the fall of Chungking for a couple of weeks.

At the very least consider sending out the weaker units and the engineering units - you don't want to lose the ability to use the Chinese pools!

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I have a serious question for followers of the AAR. I'd like to discuss the pros and cons of withdrawing from Chungking to deny the harvesting of Chinese LCU VP's to Andre and provide for the cheap buyout of Japanese units for duty in the Pacific. What are your thoughts?

Good afternoon, lemon-san,

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

The Chinese aren't dead if they abandon Chungking. There's nothing stopping them from taking the long route to India. Sure, it's a march over terrible terrain, it takes forever and lots of troops will be lost along the way, but replacements are the one thing the Chinese have plenty of.

And they'll make it to Burma without much difficulty - if each unit takes a different route from Paoshan to Ledo, the only way that the Japanese will get them all is if they set up a picket-line from Katha to east of Ledo.

On the contrary, if the remain in Chungking their death is assured. Once they're destroyed and Chungking falls, say goodbye to the Chinese for the rest of the game.

Sqz, you need to ask yourself what is worth more: having 350 odd Chinese squads/month for the rest of the game, or delaying the fall of Chungking for a couple of weeks.

At the very least consider sending out the weaker units and the engineering units - you don't want to lose the ability to use the Chinese pools!

I'm confused by this - I thought the Chinese only got the 350 squads a month if they held Chunking? Once Chunking falls they get no replacements at all, right?

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: fcharton




Good afternoon, lemon-san,

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

The Chinese aren't dead if they abandon Chungking. There's nothing stopping them from taking the long route to India. Sure, it's a march over terrible terrain, it takes forever and lots of troops will be lost along the way, but replacements are the one thing the Chinese have plenty of.

And they'll make it to Burma without much difficulty - if each unit takes a different route from Paoshan to Ledo, the only way that the Japanese will get them all is if they set up a picket-line from Katha to east of Ledo.

On the contrary, if the remain in Chungking their death is assured. Once they're destroyed and Chungking falls, say goodbye to the Chinese for the rest of the game.

Sqz, you need to ask yourself what is worth more: having 350 odd Chinese squads/month for the rest of the game, or delaying the fall of Chungking for a couple of weeks.

At the very least consider sending out the weaker units and the engineering units - you don't want to lose the ability to use the Chinese pools!

I'm confused by this - I thought the Chinese only got the 350 squads a month if they held Chunking? Once Chunking falls they get no replacements at all, right?

Not as far as I'm aware. The units don't respawn, but the squads still produce. I don't think device production was ever tied to geographic locations, bar aircraft factories.

Nothing in the manual on it, and a quick search of the forum turns nothing up.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Plus, it will be cool to see the Chinese hoards rampaging over Burma. Rangoon or bust!

I should clarify, we have the standard HR of paying PP's to cross national boundaries. The Chinese Army being permanently restricted, for the most part, means they stay in China.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks for posting everyone, I just completed a response but it was eaten by the forum. I wish this could be fixed as it's extremely frustrating to lose posts like this. I will retry later.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Not as far as I'm aware. The units don't respawn, but the squads still produce. I don't think device production was ever tied to geographic locations, bar aircraft factories.

Nothing in the manual on it, and a quick search of the forum turns nothing up.

The Chinese pools receive squads after Chungking falls. In my game with Loka I have three mega-corps in a Burma stack doing yeoman's work. Pool squads are in four digits.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Not as far as I'm aware. The units don't respawn, but the squads still produce. I don't think device production was ever tied to geographic locations, bar aircraft factories.

Nothing in the manual on it, and a quick search of the forum turns nothing up.

The Chinese pools receive squads after Chungking falls. In my game with Loka I have three mega-corps in a Burma stack doing yeoman's work. Pool squads are in four digits.

Thanks for confirming that Bullwinkle58. I was sure I saw the opposite discussed on the forum, but I dream a lot of things these days! [:D]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Thanks for posting everyone, I just completed a response but it was eaten by the forum. I wish this could be fixed as it's extremely frustrating to lose posts like this. I will retry later.

Having had that happen to me, I highlight and copy my longish postings before I hit the "OK" button. If the original gets eaten by cyberspace, it is easy to just open a new posting message and paste in the copy.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Not as far as I'm aware. The units don't respawn, but the squads still produce. I don't think device production was ever tied to geographic locations, bar aircraft factories.

Nothing in the manual on it, and a quick search of the forum turns nothing up.

The Chinese pools receive squads after Chungking falls. In my game with Loka I have three mega-corps in a Burma stack doing yeoman's work. Pool squads are in four digits.

+1

Due to my extreme incompetence in the China theater, I have long since lost Chungking. I do have some units bought out and absorbing replacements in Burma. For the past 5 days my pools have been:
746 in pool, 9979 active
742 in pool, 9995 active (net gain of 12 squads)
738 in pool, 10008 active (net gain of 9 squads)
741 in pool, 10010 active (net gain of 5 squads)
720 in pool, 10040 active (net gain of 9 squads)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I wouldn't abandon Chungking. Once you do so, your chinese are pretty much dead, for lack of supplies. They won't make it to India, and he'll just get the points for them. Also, this will free a lot of his troops for use elsewhere. Since you have minimal house rules, he can probably march them to Burma, or rail them to Malaysia, and buy those artillery and engineer units that come cheap, and some very experienced units.

You're in late 42, he didn't conquer China, you're advancing in India, do you really want to free a couple of battle-hardened IJA divisions?

Francois

Hi Francois, great to see that you are following along.

I thought I'd try and explain my reasoning a little. One of the main benefits to Japan of a siege against Chungking is to buy out depleted divisions or other units for garrison duty in the Pacific at reduced PP cost. By denying Andre the chance at a siege, do I not then force him to pay full PP costs to redeploy these units to the Pacific? Having to pay full PP costs should slow and limit the amount of units bought out.

Another observation is the fact that the majority of sieges of Chungking result in the capture of the base, as long as the Japanese player is patient and rotates his disrupted units out. Japanese losses are mostly disruptions, easily recovered with time. The VP's from destroyed Chinese units would be substantial. I am seriously questioning whether defending Chungking is worth the cost, as mind_messing indicates.

If I can move the Chinese closer to Kunming and succeed in opening a supply route from India to China, could I not then pose a serious threat to Japanese forces in China. Could this not force Andre to keep the number of units in China up to defend against an early Allied/China offensive, or at least the threat of one?

It just seems to me that defending and losing Chungking, and all the defenders, means giving up in China. Once those units are gone, they pose no threat. As long as they remain on the map and in supply, they pose a strategic problem to Japan.

I could leave 1-2k to force a siege, and withdraw the remainder of the Chinese Army to the mountains.

My Kienko front is ready to collapse. If I simply withdraw to Chungking I leave myself no options in China. I essentially concede the theatre and allow Andre to do as he pleases. However, if I do not do the standard option of a last stand at Chungking, the Chinese remain a threat indefinitely. The elephant in the room as it were, that will always pose a threat and force Andre to act accordingly.

These are my thoughts. I have a little while to still think on things.

[fcharton]

Hi Joseph,

Apart from those few units you can buy and march to India, I have lots of doubts about the possibility to "save" units inside China once Chungking is gone. As the Japanese player, my number one priority would be to finish all those guys, to be certain they never come back. You can always try, but I doubt you can save a big stack, and keep it undetected long enough if Andre is watching. Also, I have no idea how long an unsupplied unit can survive. We're talking months, here. But then again, maybe some air supply.

As for the VP harvesting from zombie units, a lot of respawn probably happened already, so the damage is done. Also, if Andre really wants those points, nothing prevents him from keeping Chungking alive for a while. The same reasoning holds for the cheap PP buyout scheme. I'm split on the value of this one. One the one hand, you do get cheaper units to buy, but they cost a lot to rebuild, and lose experience on the way (I think).

Finally, all this is predicated on the idea that you will lose Chungking. Given the fact that it produces supply, that units respawn, that you have stacking limits which make the siege a longer affair, I don't see this as a given. If your forts are still level six, and you can try and defend a perimeter around Chungking, I suspect you can last for a while, and maybe try to push from northern india, to get close enough to mount some rescue operation? This might not work, of course, but I think it is worth a try.

So, my suggestion would be :

1- try to sneak a few units away from him, and hide them close to the border (nothing to lose there)
2- defend Chungking, and a couple of hexes around if you can (if you can't, try to have other stacks to keep him busy for a while)
3- think of how you'd try to reinforce, provided the city can hold into 1943.

Francois

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

that you have stacking limits which make the siege a longer affair...

We're not playing with stacking limits and we have not updated to the latest official patch. Think of this PBEM as pretty much a stock Scenario 2.

With my current progress in India, I'll be able to fly in supply directly from Tezpur, Dimapur, Jorhat and Ledo to China within weeks. I think even the initial trickle will go a long way to securing positions around Paoshan. If I can secure Myitkyina and Bhamo then it's only a matter of time until I can open a direct land route.

Andre has not built his Burma defence, so I think being able to get supply into China soon is a big deal.

You are right though. It's late 1942 and there are some benefits to holding out at Chungking at this stage. I guess I'll see how quickly I can make progress in India/Burma in the next month to decide on a full blown defence of Chungking, a hybrid or a substantial withdrawal. I think Andre is expecting a standard defence of Chungking, and it would be nice to upset his plans and do something unexpected and pose a bigger threat than he may have imagined.

I'll update China and Burma with screenshots so we can all see the actual situation and discuss possible moves.

[tiemanjw]

Be careful thinking you can get much supply into China. You will lose a LOT of C-47s bringing it in by air (ops losses for C-47s are double the second highest airframe in my game, and until very recently, the highest overall losses).
Further, that overland route is extremely restricted. All of those bases have restrictions on how much supply they can draw - and the multipliers are usually low (typically 100 - 150). Combined with poor LOC, they will only draw this small amount 1-3 times / week typically.
For example, Myitkyina has a multiplier of 150. With a size 4 AF, and size 3 forts, this means it will draw 1050 supply / pull. Assuming it is pulling from Dimapur (supply path value of just 25 - yellow road (5), 2x jungle rough (25 each), maybe forest (15) assuming the hex of Dimapur counts. Either way it is less than 50, so just 1 pull per week.
This means, even after you built up the base significantly, you are getting just over 1000 supplies / week through that pipe (and this assumes Dimapur has the supplies to push, as it to is restricted in how much it can draw). And then it needs to go to Paoshan - another crappy route (supply value of 25 - jungle rough and 2 tropical mountains) - and it's multiplier is only 100.
This is ok if you have a couple of divisions not doing much, but if you plan to fight or rebuild / sustain a Chinese army, well, not so much.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
With my current progress in India, I'll be able to fly in supply directly from Tezpur, Dimapur, Jorhat and Ledo to China within weeks. I think even the initial trickle will go a long way to securing positions around Paoshan. If I can secure Myitkyina and Bhamo then it's only a matter of time until I can open a direct land route.

Would you be able to bomb him? I'm asking this because the Chungking basin has a lot of clear terrain, in B17 or B24 range from Ledo.

Francois