Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"Again that is no different to the current game." Except for the fact that we wont have an option like editorX for AE. A difference indeed has taken place.

EditorX was not released as part of the official WitP software.

Andrew

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"Again that is no different to the current game." Except for the fact that we wont have an option like editorX for AE. A difference indeed has taken place.

My goodness!

First, it is probably premature to really be making "buy" or "no buy" decisions. There will be plenty of time for that.

Second, I don't think we've ever said there wouldn't be an editor-X equivalent for pwhexE - though we haven't committed to it either. And note that we did hire the creator of editor-X to build the AE editor!


Third, the new pwhexE format is actually simplier than the old format was (no packed data), so even if we did not include an pwhexE editor, I'll bet it would not be more than 1-2 weeks before the MOD community get one out there. As you say, this is a pretty darn Sierra Hotel MOD community, AB made his first map (as a member of the MOD community) in about 3 months after the game was released. And he did it all on his own. James wrote editor-X on his own, etc. Now yes we co-opted some of the MOD community to help us with AE - but that doesnt mean 10 other guys can't do it.

But I suspect James will get an equivalent into the AE editor at some point, he does have other priorities right now.

[hvymtl13]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Dont get me wrong it looks good and is a great boost to a good game. And I have bought many Matrix games over the years.

However.

This seems to me to be only an upgrade rather than a full game. If the price is under $40 bucks can see myself getting it. If it is over that amount I doubt I will.

Why ? Because there is apparently still plans for a WITP 2. And that looks to be a much more significant upgrade. So the question is do I wait 6 months for an upgraded WITP Admirals edition or do I wait 2 years for a fully changed WITP 2 ?

I cant afford full rate for both. So it becomes a choice of one or the other. I can play my current version of WITP and do without the Admirals edition and wait out the time for WITP 2.

Again price is the key. If this was a completely new game might consider $75 or higher. But that isnt what Admiral's edition is.

In the time it takes to develop a complete new WITP-II you could collect enough cans to sell by then to afford it. [8|]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: hvymtl13
In the time it takes to develop a complete new WITP-II you could collect enough cans to sell by then to afford it. [8|]

Good one.

Or, you could put away $1 per week to afford it (with enough change remaining that you could have bought AE also).

[JeffroK]

Problem is that some people here may be around 18yrs old, and other old farts are older than me.
 
Wait until a firm figure is advised, I'm sure it will be affordable by all.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: William Amos
Why ? Because there is apparently still plans for a WITP 2. And that looks to be a much more significant upgrade. So the question is do I wait 6 months for an upgraded WITP Admirals edition or do I wait 2 years for a fully changed WITP 2 ?

I cant afford full rate for both. So it becomes a choice of one or the other. I can play my current version of WITP and do without the Admirals edition and wait out the time for WITP 2.

It doesnt really work that way though.

If AE sells bad (because of people like you perhaps?) then there wont be a witp2 -ever. Just as there would not have been an AE if witp had sold bad.

Im going to stop talking right now, because people like you really piss me off and I dont want to say something bad.

Circular reasoning aside, a succesful AE could help finace a WitP 2 in the distant future.

But simply because someone doesn't want to invest another $70 or so in what could prove to be "eye candy" is no reason to become angry w/them.

Capitalism means AE should sell on its merits, not on what it could do for future WitP development. But if you want to give Matrix money for R&D, then I suggest you wait until it goes public -- assuming it hasn't already -- and buy stock in Matrix; otherwise it's a donation, not an investment.

[Mifune]

"I don't think we've ever said there wouldn't be an editor-X equivalent for pwhexE - though we haven't committed to it either. And note that we did hire the creator of editor-X to build the AE editor!" Hence my concern when I made such an inquistion about pwhex editing. At this time I am told the pwhex editing function will not be built into the editor for the WitP community. With the creator of editorX is on the AE team, I doubt he will be able to such functionality available for the WItP community unless told otherwise. For now I see the writing on the wall, and until the pwhex editing function changes I stand by what I say. I will wait and see how this point transpires.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"I don't think we've ever said there wouldn't be an editor-X equivalent for pwhexE - though we haven't committed to it either. And note that we did hire the creator of editor-X to build the AE editor!" Hence my concern when I made such an inquistion about pwhex editing. At this time I am told the pwhex editing function will not be built into the editor for the WitP community. With the creator of editorX is on the AE team, I doubt he will be able to such functionality available for the WItP community unless told otherwise. For now I see the writing on the wall, and until the pwhex editing function changes I stand by what I say. I will wait and see how this point transpires.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Third, the new pwhexE format is actually simplier than the old format was (no packed data), so even if we did not include an pwhexE editor, I'll bet it would not be more than 1-2 weeks before the MOD community get one out there.

Mifune,

From Joe's statement above I woud think you would be looking forward to this release. As it appears the worst case scenario of a slight delay in having the utility is greatly mitigated by the new easier format. Anyway we all hope for the best.

[hueglin]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"I don't think we've ever said there wouldn't be an editor-X equivalent for pwhexE - though we haven't committed to it either. And note that we did hire the creator of editor-X to build the AE editor!" Hence my concern when I made such an inquistion about pwhex editing. At this time I am told the pwhex editing function will not be built into the editor for the WitP community. With the creator of editorX is on the AE team, I doubt he will be able to such functionality available for the WItP community unless told otherwise. For now I see the writing on the wall, and until the pwhex editing function changes I stand by what I say. I will wait and see how this point transpires.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Third, the new pwhexE format is actually simplier than the old format was (no packed data), so even if we did not include an pwhexE editor, I'll bet it would not be more than 1-2 weeks before the MOD community get one out there.

Mifune,

From Joe's statement above I woud think you would be looking forward to this release. As it appears the worst case scenario of a slight delay in having the utility is greatly mitigated by the new easier format. Anyway we all hope for the best.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I just don't get why Matrix doesn't make it a given that the editor will include the ability to edit the pwhex file. Why wait for a modder to do it independently - especially if the WITP Editor X creater is on the AE editor team.

Surely it cannot be a significant increase in the workload - the program must already exist for the new map to be made.

It seems to me that it can only serve to increase sales - which is good for Matrix.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Surely it cannot be a significant increase in the workload - the program must already exist for the new map to be made.

Maybe the "program" in question isn't property of Matrix...

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Maybe I'm missing something here. I just don't get why Matrix doesn't make it a given that the editor will include the ability to edit the pwhex file. Why wait for a modder to do it independently - especially if the WITP Editor X creater is on the AE editor team.


It seems to me that it can only serve to increase sales - which is good for Matrix.

And this brings around full circle to the start.

Matrix has not said it won't be. There again they didn't say it will be either. But Joe's statement appears to me make a good case that if it is not in, it not being a significant problem within a couple of weeks of release, as someone will create one.

ORIGINAL: hueglin
Surely it cannot be a significant increase in the workload - the program must already exist for the new map to be made.

This may or may not be true. Only the project manager knows, as he is the one who has to put resources to tasks. From experiance I sometimes find what was thought to be simple does not always work out that way. And there is the rub, cost (time & money) vs benefit (customer happiness).

[hueglin]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: hueglin

Maybe I'm missing something here. I just don't get why Matrix doesn't make it a given that the editor will include the ability to edit the pwhex file. Why wait for a modder to do it independently - especially if the WITP Editor X creater is on the AE editor team.


It seems to me that it can only serve to increase sales - which is good for Matrix.

And this brings around full circle to the start.

Matrix has not said it won't be. There again they didn't say it will be either. But Joe's statement appears to me make a good case that if it is not in, it not being a significant problem within a couple of weeks of release, as someone will create one.

ORIGINAL: hueglin
Surely it cannot be a significant increase in the workload - the program must already exist for the new map to be made.

This may or may not be true. Only the project manager knows, as he is the one who has to put resources to tasks. From experiance I sometimes find what was thought to be simple does not always work out that way. And there is the rub, cost (time & money) vs benefit (customer happiness).

Good points flipperwasirish. Ultimately it is Matrix and the project manager's decision. Matrix is clearly committed to customer input and that is why I (and some others) are stating our opinions on this. I'm not doing it to diss Matrix or sound like a complainer. I think it's a great company, and frankly, Matrix gets most of my game purchasing money.

edit - I just realized that this post is on the "why I won't buy thread". My original post about this issue was on the map thread and that's where I think this topic belongs - I don't consider it to be a buy/no buy issue. What I do believe, however, is that the more mods there are, the more sales there will be, as late comers (like me) are more likely to buy a game if it already has a lot of user created material. So to me, it makes sense to give the modders as much to work with as possible right out of the gate.

[Nomad]

Let's see, it's mid Dec and the due out date is sometime Early Summer. I think the best thing is to wait until they figure out how much they are going to charge and what they are going to include. One thing this "old fart" has learned is to try and get all of the information available before making a decision. And also to delay any hard and fast decisions until they really have to be made.

[Williamb]

Again this isnt a new game but an old game with some new tweaks. There isnt much of significance in Admirals addition to say this is a completely new game.
 
Again I havent ruled out buying this but while there are some good featured in the new mod there isnt enough there to justify paying full price when I already have WITP. I dont need WITP and WITP plus I can just play the old game.
 
Heck that Mediteranian mod looked more exciting than this add on.

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Again this isnt a new game but an old game with some new tweaks. There isnt much of significance in Admirals addition to say this is a completely new game.

Again I havent ruled out buying this but while there are some good featured in the new mod there isnt enough there to justify paying full price when I already have WITP. I dont need WITP and WITP plus I can just play the old game.

Heck that Mediteranian mod looked more exciting than this add on.

Well AE isn't a new game it's an expansion pack! Hopefully the continuing work with WITP will give Matrix the experts, code, and a lttle closer to a new UV/WITP/Med type game down the road!

[Andy Mac]

OK I am not going to comment on the buy/no buy thing not really my place each person will make up their own mind.
 
What I will say is its not a matter of complexity or even a matter of is it possible its a case of we NEED to stop coding new features and add ons and concentrate on testing and AI to allow debugging of changes - when you draw that line it has to be absolute otherwise we will get scope creep for the next 6 months.
 
We are all part time with day jobs doing this in our 'free time' folks need to understand this is not easy on any of the project team and we are doing this because we enjoy the game.
 
None of us have the time to do Testing/AI/Debugging AND concentrate on new features right up to the last minute and the project leadership has rightly said enough its time to get working what we have and make sure we get the AI working.
 
Anyway thats my tuppence worth
 
 

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Again this isnt a new game but an old game with some new tweaks. There isnt much of significance in Admirals addition to say this is a completely new game.

Again I havent ruled out buying this but while there are some good featured in the new mod there isnt enough there to justify paying full price when I already have WITP. I dont need WITP and WITP plus I can just play the old game ...

Do you play vs. AI, PBEM or both; I'm assuming that if you have to be patched-up to the same patch for a PBEM game, then it follows that if you have AD ED, your PBEM opponent will have to have it too.

Or is that an assumption on my part.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

Again this isnt a new game but an old game with some new tweaks. There isnt much of significance in Admirals addition to say this is a completely new game. You are basically correct..., except for the "some". There are a LOT of new tweeks..., so many that it may well take you a month to get a "handle" on all of them.

Heck that Mediteranian mod looked more exciting than this add on. The "War in the Med" project isn't really worth starting with the current ground system. I'm sure it's being thought of..., but only when a total code re-write can be included.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

I think many are missing the point of my post.

I didnt say I have completely closed the option of buying this. But I think its fair game to ask why we aren't getting WITP 2 and instead we are getting WITP GRAND PATCH.

Matrix has been slightly guilty of making only minor changes to games and then recycling them. Even WITP is a remake of another game.

The changes in the Admiral's edition are nice but since I already have WITP do I really want to spend $100 dollars to get WITP even with a few changes ?

Id honestly want Matrix to spend the time making WITP 2 than just revamping the old game. If it took 2 years and Matrix wanted to charge me $150 dollars for WITP 2 Id more than likely buy it. They would have far more sales and far more money if they were innovative and daring rather than just tweaking this game.

Im not knocking the developers for wanting to make the game better. In fact Matrix gets a lot of credit from me for working on games to make them better.

But there comes a limit where simply slaping changes to a game reaches a point of no return. And I think WITP is fast reaching that point.

I say these things as a fan of this game. Its a great game and as always can be better. But I think I can honestly state that rather than a grand fix a new version of this game is the better way to go. I have bought many Matrix games but lately I havent seen anything that makes me want to spend the time and money on it coming out of this company.

I will keep being hopefull.. Matrix has a great track record but sometimes I get the impression that they are locked into a mindset that tweaking old games is good enough to keep getting money. Its not about cranking out the most games its about making good games that keep being interesting.

And as point for Lt Horlund I liked this game so much I bought WPO as well and enjoy it a great deal. Why ? Because it made changes to the game that made it play as a different game. And that was good enough for matrix to get my money

Matrix has to make money. Its incrimental approach has worked and permitted financing of man years of work on the subject of interest. Further - there are lots of technical matters involved. Matrix might be accused of NOT working them out enough in the past - and this idea - of getting some major things thoroughly developed before betting the farm on a grander change - is probably better than a repeat of WITP I (which IMHO was unplayable - I never even tried - so bad wat the map - I could not look at it). The OB was astonishingly sloppy. Clearly that isn't the case with AE. And much of that work - maybe the map and almost certainly the OB - won't have to change much for WITP II.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: hueglin

ORIGINAL: Mifune

But not being able to work on your own maps and pwhex file is a purchase breaker now

Andrew Brown mentioned on the map forum that a final decision on this had not been made. I agree it might be a purchase breaker and we should lobby hard to get it included in the editor.

It might indeed be a purchase breaker, but I doubt there will be a way to PREVENT doing maps - it is just an art image with the right label and size - or pwhex files. Also - since the official position is there is not a final decision - the de facto decision not to issue the pwhex editor may be reversed.

We need seasonal maps, and the ability to add things (e.g. Madagascar - and I think Panama - which I am not yet convinced cannot be done - etc - so we need an editor). Also - we need the ability to fix map errors - which anything this size must contain - and we need to be able to build/break infrastructure - which pwhex permits. In the end if it is all impossible, I will stay with WITP I as well - but I just don't believe it will all be impossible.