AGC: Turn 1 Moves

[Q-Ball]

I've gotten to that hex, but that doesn't cut the rail line. The one to the Southeast is still open. I made it adjacent to the SE Rail Hex, but that still doesn't cut it; there is a Para unit on the other side still exerting ZOC. You can still rail the industry out.

I think it's possible to get 2 Panzer Divs on a Hasty attack on Minsk itself; not sure if that's enough to knock the units out of the hex. That would do it. I don't think 1 Panzer div is enough.

[Klydon]

It is the south line out of Minsk I could not cut. I can cut the north one easy.

I hit Minsk (repeatedly) with a panzer and a motorized infantry division. Not even close on the attacks. They were like 1-2 or 1-3. I don't know that you could get enough in there to try a 3 division attack because that would be the only thing to stand a chance.

As Flav mentioned; in reality its not a big deal to cut Minsk off to keep the industry from getting away because it is not a lot in the big scheme of things, but as the only center that can be reached on the first turn and given how easy it is to evacuate in this game, it is likely the only time the vast majority of Germans will ever get a wiff of knocking out some production/armaments, so in a sense it would be a moral victory to pop the Russians like that on the first turn. I think it would probably be far more productive to concentrate on better pockets, better positioning on the east side of the pocket and trying to keep from routing as many units out of the pocket as possible to a point.

One thing I have to make an observation about in regards to sloppy pockets that leak or don't hold, especially when speed of advance is needed for infantry. The two don't go together for the most part. The objective I try to accomplish is to encircle one turn and then slaughter everything the next with everything that I am attacking surrendering. If you are not going to use that as a goal, then why bother with the pocket in the first place? Any attack against pockets that get supply reestablished mean that you either can't attack while you reestablish the pocket or have units rout out of the pocket and defeat the purpose of the pocket. In the Baltic states, you have got to deal with the ports because the troops facing AGN have multiple places they can "go back into supply" and most of the time it isn't because they were relieved from the east, but rather they were able to link up with the two ports on the west coast there or with Riga. Ideally, I want much of my infantry moving as far east as possible on turn 1, the back infantry (infantry I primarily used in the initial assaults) to clean up the pockets and the front infantry to keep going. If I have to make 1 or two attacks with the stuff in front to finish a unit off that the panzers left, then so be it, but getting as much infantry as far east as possible (and north in the case of AGN) should be the goal.

[PeeDeeAitch]

re: sloppy pockets.

I simply find that a pocket will form southwest of Riga unless I go out of my way to blitz through that region - I can still accomplish my goals. However, for a bit more planning I can actually pocket them. It just seems to be one of those things that could slow someone down...or help in the long run. The more that the pocket is blitzed, the better for infantry movement the 2nd turn, however, as more hexes have converted.

[Q-Ball]

Playing around tonight, it's actually pretty easy to get over the Daugvina. In fact, Riga can push over pretty easily, IF you attack it from the Dry side of the River Bank. That might be worth it, because Riga can be a pain if you don't deal with it. Also becomes a supply source.

[Mynok]

The south rail line can be cut by 3rd Panzer motorized. It might leave your pocket a bit shy around Vilnius though, as my test tonight showed.

I think the key thing is nuking Brest quick with the 4th army so that the 2nd Panzer infantry can clear the way along the rail line for the 2nd Panzer armor and motorized to get farther.

Speed is critical in AGN. Absolutely. You have to pocket everything south of the Dvina.

[Ketza]

At the end of my AGN move I usually get results along like this:



I think it meets the requirments for getting AGN off to a good start.

My AGC opening needs work however.

[2ndACR]

It is a good move, but you really want to be over the river on turn 1 as best you can. You have to get to the outskirts of Pskov by turn 3 at least, or the Russians will form a line along that river and you will be doing the 1 hex at a time shuffle.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Here was my try - forced to wing it as last night I had work and such, the joys of real life. 20th Pz by Daugavpils may or may not transfer to 56th PzC in this run, if so it makes Mansteins corps stronger, but lowers ACG by one division. However, it can easily rejoin Hoth depending on the situation - I like fluidity.

Strong points were getting across the Dvina en masse, I did not assault Riga, though I could have - up to my whims. Pocket blown, but perhaps still 10+ divisions encircled. One strength is that with the new RR repair, next turn all the hexes are converted so that things speed up - it seems with the latest patch, conversion through newly converted hexes is slower. Pace, pace, pace.

I see several problems with this (I did look at it from the Soviet side as well), but I wanted to show an example of a wide crossing of the Dvina.

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I've gotten to that hex, but that doesn't cut the rail line. The one to the Southeast is still open. I made it adjacent to the SE Rail Hex, but that still doesn't cut it; ...

Moving 1 unit just west of Minsk will be enough to prevent factory evac (beta 1.03-2). Rails out are intact (no enemy units east of Minsk yet), but opening the city screen with industry filter on shows no factories to move. Switching to normal moves the city screen shows the factories.

Well, at least I won't have the dilemma of evacuating these factories or railmoving more troops.



Other lesson to be learned here: Don't neglect forming proper pockets for the price of destroying some factories. I'll reopen supply lines West of Minsk and hope my opponent will lose some additional time resealing and cleaning the pockets there.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The south rail line can be cut by 3rd Panzer motorized. It might leave your pocket a bit shy around Vilnius though, as my test tonight showed.

I think the key thing is nuking Brest quick with the 4th army so that the 2nd Panzer infantry can clear the way along the rail line for the 2nd Panzer armor and motorized to get farther.

Speed is critical in AGN. Absolutely. You have to pocket everything south of the Dvina.

I think you're right on Brest, it can be done with 4th Army, but in my experience, takes at least 5 Divisions on Deliberate attack, maybe 6 to be sure you rout all the units. You really don't want them to retreat into the swamp to the Southeast. You can block that with Cav, but I prefer to use that unit to form a pocket around Kovel, where you can bag 6 Divisions with just Infantry.

I need to try that cut to Minsk. Not 100% sure it's necessary, but I suppose that also will clear alot of units around Minsk, and make it impossible to form any kind of defense short of the Vitebsk/Dnepr line.

[Mynok]

Just make sure you don't use any 3rd panzer moto or armor for attacks.

I use the Sturm corps and LII (I think) corps to reduce Brest-L. They are the ones that start behind the line.

[Q-Ball]

I just played a couple turns against myself (which I highly recommend, BTW, to get the first couple turns down), and as the Russian I tried to block as much as possible, and break every pocket I could. The highlights:

TURN 1: Captured RIGA, and got a Panzer Corps accross the Daugvina. Cut-off pretty much every unit that starts West of the Daugvina, except around Minsk.

Easily got adjacent to Minsk; Russian cannot RR out industry. About 10 divisions isolated West of Minsk/East of Bialystok pocket

In the SOUTH, used PzGp 2 Formations to create massive Lvov pocket, plus smaller Kovel one. Through turn 2, STILL cleaning this up, though it's alot of troops!

TURN 2: Reached Pskov in force (couldn't take it though), Reached the Dnepr near Mogilev (could have crossed it with a Panzer Div, but that's asking for isolation), and in the south surrounded 7 more divisions around Proskurov. Even with a large LVOV pocket, the Soviets can still get enough troops together to slow you down. Unit destruction a priority.

At the end of Turn 2, Soviet losses are 730K, includiing 490K POWs, and at the start of Turn 3, there are still 25 Divisions isolated that require clean-up; so that's 1 Million guys right there.

[PeeDeeAitch]

One thing I have seen by playing and replaying some of these moves - and the discussions here - is that my first couple of turns (at least) are tighter and better. The germans have far less leeway in this game, and one bad stretch can unhinge everything. (the setups for winter - linear and not using the towns and not falling back with a screen - come to mind)

I like the ideas herein so far, even the ones that have not panned out explain why they need work - and this helps the german player.

[Mynok]

It's clearly the more challenging side to play.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I've gotten to that hex, but that doesn't cut the rail line. The one to the Southeast is still open. I made it adjacent to the SE Rail Hex, but that still doesn't cut it; there is a Para unit on the other side still exerting ZOC. You can still rail the industry out.

No you can't rail factories out if there is enemy adjacent to it. It just happened to me in my restarted PBEM against Tbone1218. 1 Pz div in hex W of minsk and my factories weren't going anywhere. i hope the testers who have posted that factories aren't even worth railing are right.

if anyone else knows Tbone, tell him he can't do this so he won't try again! I have but he may not believe a Limey.

Maybe it's another AI trick.

[SuluSea]

I've been spending so much time on the AGS that this one slipped by me. Good thread guys. [:)]

[SuluSea]

Seems like the armor/infantry at Brest Litovsk and the area just NE would be better served being pocketed? Any reason why they should be routed?

Also a question I pocketed the units south of the bug canal with the AGS infantry and two infantry from AGC had the 255th left over and ran it NE , I seem to remember that the rail would be cut under this scenario did I read that correctly?

Edit- not the original picture but orchestrated the move again to pose the question.




Thanks.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I think it best to blow through Brest-Litovsk for the simple reason of springing the tanks along the fastest route to the east.  Part of the problem is that the clock is ticking from the get go, and those first 2 turns are golden - the panzer corps have fuel to really run those turns.  While a pocket is good, there is a big enough one in the Bialystok bulge, and the chance of having your tanks touching the Dnepr at the end of turn 2 or 3 is far better.
 
I am of the opinion that the initial dash is key, then rest if need be, but rest where you have already extended your opponant.  This is not a race that goes to the slow and methodical.

[2ndACR]

Kick them out of Brest so you can repair rail. Gives you a jump start on repairs. Use the Infantry Corp there and the infantry div north of Brest, deliberate attack an then clear the left overs along the rail.

Getting your rail repairs started early is the key. It will only repair 2-3 hexes first turn, but that is 40-60 miles closer to your lead units.

[Klydon]

Both Pee and 2ndACR covered it. The other thing is that armored division that is there has trash for tanks anyway. It is not a juicy one that has a pile of KV and T34 tanks in it if that is something you are trying to target.