Future of the series

[Raap]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

Changing DW over to 3D would require way too much dev effort and £££ for the quality it might lend to the game.

You know what I'm hearing in this thread? Fear! You're all afraid of even trying. You're all basically saying it can't be done and you're too afraid to see it tried. Scared little children......fortune favors the bold.

I think we're just not seeing the benefits like you are. Most of us really think the graphics are more than fine as they are; I've certainly played and enjoyed countless games with far worse graphics than DW. And many of us still think there's tons of things that could be added to the game; probably more stuff than the developers would be able to add in ten lifetimes. Thus it becomes pretty simple; spend lots of resources on making graphics which we don't really need/want, or spend lots of resources on improving the actual gameplay even further.

That's not so hard to understand, is it? And if some of us did fear the transition to 3D, it would hardly be unwarranted. On the top of my head I can't think of a single game series which improved when it went from 2D graphics to 3D graphics. Most of them really ended up far worse in the gameplay department, a few managed to stay about the same. None actually improved. So is it worth to take that risk here, for practically no gain? Not to me. Let's take the risk-free route instead and continue evolving the gameplay.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You know what I'm hearing in this thread? Fear! You're all afraid of even trying. You're all basically saying it can't be done and you're too afraid to see it tried. Scared little children......fortune favors the bold.

It isn't fear - it's cost/benefit analysis. The time, effort and cost required to implement a 3D engine - compared to taking all that and putting it into making DW a better 2D game. If CodeForce had a billion dollars to throw at the project then I'm sure they'd love to put all the bells and whistles on DW - but they don't.

[Simulation01]

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

Isn't it obvious? They move on to the next project. At some point Elliot will be satisfied with DW as finished. Maybe he starts DW 2 with updated graphics and a new game engine taking advantage the technology available at that time...maybe he makes a new game in a new genre.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel in a game that has already gone gold...best to save that for the game that is still alpha (or far in the future). Bug fixes should be done, adding features is nice, re-writing the entire graphics engine is a non-starter. You have to virtually recode the whole game to do that. Too much work for too little return at this point...much better building a new game with the 3d graphics in from the go.

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

Isn't it obvious? They move on to the next project. At some point Elliot will be satisfied with DW as finished. Maybe he starts DW 2 with updated graphics and a new game engine taking advantage the technology available at that time...maybe he makes a new game in a new genre.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel in a game that has already gone gold...best to save that for the game that is still alpha (or far in the future). Bug fixes should be done, adding features is nice, re-writing the entire graphics engine is a non-starter. You have to virtually recode the whole game to do that. Too much work for too little return at this point...much better building a new game with the 3d graphics in from the go.

The soft bigotry of low expectations, eh?

[gmot]

To return to what Eliott said, I'm happy to hear that there will be at least one more expansion and wonder what will be in that - better diplomacy, personalities/adminrals, in-depth invasions/ground battles, planetary facilities with placement, targetted weapons, finer control over ship combat stance, etc... Would like to hear a hint from them about that.

Not so concerned about the something special as yet, as that seems further off in the future.

[Raap]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

That's the point though, several of those things you've been asking for are not *patch* material. At best they're expansion material, but far more likely they are 'new game' material, at least if you want several of them. And that is why we don't want to see 3D, because we want to see features of that magnitude implemented instead.

If you've even just a little modding or programming experience, you'd see how much work stuff like diplomacy, terraforming, artificial worlds, etc, all good ideas, could take. First you have to implement it with the rest of the game taken into consideration, then you have to check for balance, then you have to bug fix, then you have to get the AI to take advantage of it, then more bug fixing, there's just so much work to do.

As Shark7 says, going 3D...well, that's basically starting on a completely new game. You could keep the ideas from this one, sure, but all the features, the art, most of the code, it would all have to be made anew, and then again comes months of bugfixing and balancing. And it would all be more expensive and more difficult this time around because of 3D. There's also a very real chance that it would be a poor implementation of 3D, because of limited resources.

So yeah, even 3-5 years into the future I'm hoping they'll still be doing work on *this* game, and not a new one. To me, Distant Worlds 2 would ideally have hardware acceleration for performance, a tad better 2D art( or not), *full* moddability, and a few huge new features as well as improved AI. Personally I'd be in ecstasy.

[Data]

not to mention the drooling when we think about the future of this game and sequels (ya, plural please) [:)]

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: Raap

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

That's the point though, several of those things you've been asking for are not *patch* material. At best they're expansion material, but far more likely they are 'new game' material, at least if you want several of them. And that is why we don't want to see 3D, because we want to see features of that magnitude implemented instead.

If you've even just a little modding or programming experience, you'd see how much work stuff like diplomacy, terraforming, artificial worlds, etc, all good ideas, could take. First you have to implement it with the rest of the game taken into consideration, then you have to check for balance, then you have to bug fix, then you have to get the AI to take advantage of it, then more bug fixing, there's just so much work to do.

As Shark7 says, going 3D...well, that's basically starting on a completely new game. You could keep the ideas from this one, sure, but all the features, the art, most of the code, it would all have to be made anew, and then again comes months of bugfixing and balancing. And it would all be more expensive and more difficult this time around because of 3D. There's also a very real chance that it would be a poor implementation of 3D, because of limited resources.

So yeah, even 3-5 years into the future I'm hoping they'll still be doing work on *this* game, and not a new one. To me, Distant Worlds 2 would ideally have hardware acceleration for performance, a tad better 2D art( or not), *full* moddability, and a few huge new features as well as improved AI. Personally I'd be in ecstasy.

I see. We have reached an impasse. I have no other option than to resort to classical methods of persuasion:

It's time for armed conflict.

[Sabin Stargem]

Raap, there are game series that have improved or showed that they were still strong when they switched over to 3D. Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, Final Fantasy VII, and Metroid Prime to name a few.

However, I will admit that strategy games, especially 4x tended to not work out...but I think that they often failed from poor execution, which would injure all aspects of development. An unfortunate fact of the genre is that 4x games are perceived as something that doesn't make money. A bad assumption on the part of potential investors, but it means that we get far less games in the genre, be they good or bad - hence fewer series to see if they can transition from 2D to 3D. We don't really know if it can work out, simply because there isn't enough developers who would try.

Once again, I say that Codeforce should team up with Positech for Distant Worlds II. Codeforce could concentrate on things like diplomacy, the economy, and planets while Positech handles the combat, graphics, and ship design. Distant Worlds has great potential, but it would need good people to fulfill it.

[Data]

yap, if Elliot can do all that he did and does and will do imagine how much two Elliots could do.....but the second or many others would have to be Elliot material as well
so, should be begin to raise the money for cloning him? [:)]

[Raap]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

I see. We have reached an impasse. I have no other option than to resort to classical methods of persuasion:

It's time for armed conflict.

Hehe, fair enough. And for my first shot, I do think you might be having a bit too high expectations for the effect 3D would actually have. The best way to play this type of game is top-down and a bit zoomed out so you can actually see what's happening. And from that view angle and distance, 3D isn't really much different from 2D. And 2D can actually look nicer, if you get good artists to do the sprites; it's much harder to get 3D graphics to actually look great.

Sabin, I think the telling sign is that there so far haven't been any all that good 3D 4x games. The Galactic Civilizations series, the Sword of the Stars series, SoaSE( arguably not 4x but just RTS), Star Ruler, Imperium Galactica 2, etc. Some of them are decent and fun games, sure, but nowhere near Master of Orion quality. Distant Worlds, on the other hand, is near MoO quality. Certainly with a few more expansions or a sequel which furthers the gameplay even more.

As for having them team up with Positech, I just don't think that's realistic at all. They have their own series going, which might actually be doing just as well as Distant Worlds or even better. They'll also have plans for the next few years, as will Codeforce. So yeah, not really seeing that as a realistic option. And you'd also need funding for such a large project, which is hard to get in this genre( except possibly for someone who tried to make Master of Orion 4).

[fierceking]

ORIGINAL: Raap

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

I see. We have reached an impasse. I have no other option than to resort to classical methods of persuasion:

It's time for armed conflict.

Hehe, fair enough. And for my first shot, I do think you might be having a bit too high expectations for the effect 3D would actually have. The best way to play this type of game is top-down and a bit zoomed out so you can actually see what's happening. And from that view angle and distance, 3D isn't really much different from 2D. And 2D can actually look nicer, if you get good artists to do the sprites; it's much harder to get 3D graphics to actually look great.

Sabin, I think the telling sign is that there so far haven't been any all that good 3D 4x games. The Galactic Civilizations series, the Sword of the Stars series, SoaSE( arguably not 4x but just RTS), Star Ruler, Imperium Galactica 2, etc. Some of them are decent and fun games, sure, but nowhere near Master of Orion quality. Distant Worlds, on the other hand, is near MoO quality. Certainly with a few more expansions or a sequel which furthers the gameplay even more.

As for having them team up with Positech, I just don't think that's realistic at all. They have their own series going, which might actually be doing just as well as Distant Worlds or even better. They'll also have plans for the next few years, as will Codeforce. So yeah, not really seeing that as a realistic option. And you'd also need funding for such a large project, which is hard to get in this genre( except possibly for someone who tried to make Master of Orion 4).

So basically your saying that since no one has come up with a good 3D version of this type of game no one ever will be able to make one? You never know Elliot might surprise you.

As to it being not cost effective, who's to say it won't sell better than the 2D version if it's really good? What if he comes up with something revolutionary? It might sell like hotcakes.... like Starcraft 2 or Call of Duty 2?

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi guys,

Right now we are working on updates as well as something else special. We definitely have another expansion planned after this one, beyond that I can't really discuss yet.

Regards,

- Erik

And you're all probably missing something basic? Could be pricing? Bundling of both DW + ROTS?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You all do realize that there will come a day when they have added all the depth that they want to add right?  What then?  I personally have made several threads relating to more depth....none of them have been addressed.  I do realize Codeforce does not exist to please me alone, but I'm not the only one wanting more diplomacy, admirals, terraforming, artificial worlds, startrek style phasers/lasers, ground combat etc..etc...  Yet, we have not been given that and there are mere hints of 'something special'.  In which direction does this 'special' lead us?

3D will not come in a bleeping patch or expansion and I am not asking for it that soon, but what about in 3-5 years time?  Maybe for DW 2 or 3?  Several of you are acting as though I am demanding the developers to stop what they are doing and immediately start work on 3D.  I AM NOT!  I do however think that one day this game should make the move to 3D. 

Isn't it obvious? They move on to the next project. At some point Elliot will be satisfied with DW as finished. Maybe he starts DW 2 with updated graphics and a new game engine taking advantage the technology available at that time...maybe he makes a new game in a new genre.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel in a game that has already gone gold...best to save that for the game that is still alpha (or far in the future). Bug fixes should be done, adding features is nice, re-writing the entire graphics engine is a non-starter. You have to virtually recode the whole game to do that. Too much work for too little return at this point...much better building a new game with the 3d graphics in from the go.

The soft bigotry of low expectations, eh?

Said the pot to the kettle...

Why don't you take a look at your own rigid stance before you start accusing others. You're I'm right, everyone else is wrong attitude grows tiresome.

[Raap]

ORIGINAL: fierceking

So basically your saying that since no one has come up with a good 3D version of this type of game no one ever will be able to make one? You never know Elliot might surprise you.

As to it being not cost effective, who's to say it won't sell better than the 2D version if it's really good? What if he comes up with something revolutionary? It might sell like hotcakes.... like Starcraft 2 or Call of Duty 2?

I'm saying the odds aren't in Elliot's favor. And yes, 3D graphics might have made such a game sell more...if they're actually good(don't think it's helping Star Ruler much though). And if the 3D version ends up not selling more, then they might very well go bankrupt.

At any rate, my point is simply that it's not worth the risk. We could end up with the greatest 4x game ever made *if* they continue to work with what they've got; that's a relatively safe bet. If they do 3D graphics instead, we most likely won't end up with a game that is as good as Distant Worlds, let alone better. That's also a relatively safe bet.

So why would you want them to do the high-risk( both for us in terms of getting a good game, and for the company in terms of getting enough sales) project for just some more bells and whistles and 'hopefully' more sales, rather than the low-risk project where we *definitely* end up with an even greater game?

[Simulation01]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

ORIGINAL: Shark7




Isn't it obvious? They move on to the next project. At some point Elliot will be satisfied with DW as finished. Maybe he starts DW 2 with updated graphics and a new game engine taking advantage the technology available at that time...maybe he makes a new game in a new genre.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel in a game that has already gone gold...best to save that for the game that is still alpha (or far in the future). Bug fixes should be done, adding features is nice, re-writing the entire graphics engine is a non-starter. You have to virtually recode the whole game to do that. Too much work for too little return at this point...much better building a new game with the 3d graphics in from the go.

The soft bigotry of low expectations, eh?

Said the pot to the kettle...

Why don't you take a look at your own rigid stance before you start accusing others. You're I'm right, everyone else is wrong attitude grows tiresome.

As do you.

[Abraxis]

Actually, the more posts of yours I read with the same argument reworded, the more I find myself agreeing with you.

I've been reading this excellent book called Snow Crash.
Flipping through the pages, just recently, it hit me... The graphics in this book suck! all it is is black letters and a white page! this shit isn't even 3D!

[Data]

/quote]

And you're all probably missing something basic? Could be pricing? Bundling of both DW + ROTS?

They are already bundled afaik

[drillerman]

I'd like to see psuedo 3d isometric view like GalCiv2 but with DW gameplay.

[Igard]

I think it would be nice to see 3D implemented in the future, but not essential for me.

I don't think the player could keep track of things in a fully 3D environment with so many stars and nebulas. So like some have said, still a 2D map, but with 3D models for ships and space objects. Imagine the planets not only orbiting their star, but rotating as well. I know that seems a minute detail, but that just appeals to me.

However, it's still way down the bottom of my wishlist.