ORIGINAL: glvaca
ORIGINAL: kg_1007
Interesting conversation.. A few notes though..
The rate of Axis advance that I have seen, is definitely not unrealistic, except in some ways slower than historic, but even there, not by much. The 7th Panzer Division as an example covered 390km in its first 4 days, including 1 day of actually sitting waiting for its flanks to be covered. For the most part historically, the Germans pushed forward with quite rapid speed, up until the point where they began far outrunning their railheads, but even as late as October some units in AGC pushed several hundred km in a 10 day span. These types of advances are not able to be achieved really in this game with carpets of brigade sized units which , as noted, composed in a recent game, begin around 1800men, hit by a 14.000 strong division, take 2-300 losses, retreat one hex(10 miles) then force you to attack them again to move, and obviously with no overruns(the historic result of most of these meetings) a division will only have the MP to do that twice or maybe 3, and end its turn.
That said, there ARE ways around it..for every measure, there is always a countermeasure, and when the Germans "play defense" later, they can use the same rules.
The idea of the game should be to enjoy playing it, work with what we have, etc. I assume this is how muling came into practice as the Axis side working with what they have..the more annoying aspect, is that some players are all for erasing any of the other sides' workarounds, while wanting their own left..personally, I prefer that the developers add things, rather than concentrate on taking things away..people paid a lot of money for this game, it actually is a fun game, but we should have a right to enjoy it however we want, without developers stepping in to take away tools..if you cannot trust the people you are playing against, then really, why play against them anyway?
You miss the point. The devs take away things that they did not intend to happen. They have the overview of what _should_ be possible within the game. They have the final decision of what they want in as a feature, not an exploit as in something unintended.
I still think you underestimate the capabilities of the German side. Focus less on exploits, more on strategy & tactics.
As an officer who teaches tactics, I should point out that tactics in general ARE exploits..you look for a weakness, and exploit it. Here, apparently, as an example, many Axis players saw that due to super-brigades which back up, as mentioned, one hex each time they are hit by a unit at even 10:1 odds(that historically would and did crush them)..so, the Axis player had to look for a tactic that allowed them to overcome this, someone sat, apparently, and came up with muling(really a rather ingenious idea lol) I give them credit actually as it never even would have occurred to myself. So, it was 'fixed' ie. taken out of the game..as it was not a tactic I would choose to use, it does not really directly affect me, but I still feel that someone who paid $80US for a game, should be able to, if they think they want to(personally, things like that make it less fun for me, even if they work..but I did not buy THEIR games, I bought my own) The developers nevertheless , by this post, seem to have left in the reason that many people resorted to muling..ie, the super brigades which slow down and drain the Axis offense of logistics, forcing them to waste resources in a hex-by-hex attack against many of these brigades just to move forward in a 1 week turn, less than they did in 1 day in some of these areas.
But I am NOT arguing to end that , either.. employing the brigades well, ALSO is a tactic, developed by Soviet players here, and to a lesser extent by Soviet AI, to overcome also less-than-realistic advantages on the Axis part...the eventual logistic drain on the Axis army is nowhere near as bad as it became historically. So my argument above was not "pro Axis" OR "pro-Soviet" but rather"pro player" because I really feel that we paid for this game, each of us, we should not have to keep giving up parts of it..patches should add to it, or fix bugs that make it unplayable, etc, not remove parts that, apparently, at least some people who paid, like.
