Japanese A/C R&D

[pws1225]

@The Moose - Jeez, if I told you what I could do with the ship acceleration system, I think your antlers might catch fire! [:D]

May each of us find like-minded opponents for many years to come.

Regards, Paul

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: pws1225

I respectfully disagree. I see getting the '45 fighters in mid-'43 as a logical consequence of utilizing a system built into the game by the developers. Besides, all these fighters give a JFB is a rough parity with the mid-'43 allied fighters, not air superiority. If you take a look at the stats of the A6M8, the poster child of utilizing the R&D system, you will see that it is about on a par with the early Hellcat, both of which can come on line in mid-43. It's not a war-winner by any stretch of the imagination but it does help Japan stay competitive for a while longer.

More damaging is the George, or the Ki-100. Still, the better mid-war A6M5c model can be crucial to 43 CV battles, and this lets you get that earlier and build big pools sooner.

My point above is not just about superiority, but VPs. If the VP scale is set up based on balance is it still balanced with these research ultra-accelerations?

Another aspect of the debate on R&D system (as well as the ability to accelerate ship production) has to do with the decision a JFB must make between building up his military vs building up his economy. At the outset of every game, a JFB must decide how he is going to handle this balance and design his strategy around it. He can decide to forego the A/C R&D and ship acceleration and hoard the saved HI for the late game siege of the Home Islands, or he can expend the HI to build up his military through the R&D and ship acceleration capabilities gambling that a better equipped military can hold the Allies at bay.

Ok. So it's easy to say this to an AFB who doesn't know the production or RnD system. [:)]

If you do this you can get the N1K5 faster for the same investment you'd usually use. You're starting it's research earlier, so it comes sooner but costs the same. Right?

So not actually the investment you have to consider as deeply regarding the economy.

A large part of the enjoyment of playing the Japanese side is the challenge of designing a strategy that balances these two competing demands for resources in such a way to enhance your chance of a more favourable outcome. Stated more simply, for me at least, the war comes down to placing a bet on the proper allocation of resources then playing the game to its conclusion to see if your gamble will pay off. This is very similar to the kind of gamble that other Japanese players make when they expend huge quantities of supplies trying to take India, Australia, or even the west coast to achieve auto-victory.

But in this case you bet less to get the same payout. Or bet the same and get a bigger payout. [:D]

I doubt I will change your mind, Mr. Moose, but I hope that I have explained why I find the use of the R&D system and other aspects game so central to the enjoyment of the game for the Japanese player. It is the side every riverboat gambler would want to play, even if the odds are still stacked against him.

It's a hell of a game, wouldn't you say? [:)]

Just my two cents.

I've used this push in my current game, but only from the mid-game on. It will get some 45 fighters to me faster. I wanted to see how much faster and if that really felt right. We'll see, but this whole trade-off argument you're using doesn't work if you push the timeframe with the R & D jump. There is no extra cost to switch an already repaired factory.

You're paying the same for better results.

[SheperdN7]

geez this thread is like missing an episode of GoT, once you miss one day on here you may as well have missed them all because you're so lost[:D].

I still don't see what the problem is, if its an "over acceleration" of R&D airframes, I can offer a mere theory as to why this is...


So Zero line starts at Rufe... Why? Did the Rufe truly "advance" the airframe in RL? No. Waste of time and effort, same as the A6M2 Sen Baku. The N1K Rex is a different beast, it needed that airframe to even have the idea of the George in the first place. You all have to realize that to advance an airframe you don't NEED to build a fighter-bomber version of it just to learn different techniques on how to make it better. At least that's how I see it. If you want to super accelerate to the A6M8, by all means go ahead. Lets see how it fairs against my hellcats and corsairs and proximity-fused flak shells[:)]


I look to Germany as a prime example of wasted R&D on airframes. 109E-4, 109E-7, 109F-2, 109F-4, 109G-2, 109G-4, 109G-6, 109G-10, 109G-14, 109K-4

A friend of mine once said to me "You can upgrade and fine tune a Ford Pinto as much as you want but at the end of the day its still a Ford Pinto."

Eventually you have to look at an airframe the same way. I can upgrade the Zero airframe until the I become "The Empire of the Setting Sun", but at the end of the day its still a Zero. Hopefully my A6M400's are good to go up against those Bearcats...[8|]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

I still don't see what the problem is, if its an "over acceleration" of R&D airframes, I can offer a mere theory as to why this is...

If you want to super accelerate to the A6M8, by all means go ahead. Lets see how it fairs against my hellcats and corsairs and proximity-fused flak shells[:)]

Consider that if you have the A6M8 in 43 it's superior to the other models you would have had at this date without the ultra push R & D.

This changes balance, VP totals, possible carrier clashes and ship losses, economic concerns,saves more elite fighter pilots, more bomber pilots, etc. Even in a PDU-off game this could be a problem.

We haven't even mentioned the long bomber path of the D4Y Judy yet. I just got D4Y4 in 4/43. That is a mid-45 kami plane with an 800kg AP bomb. Still not seeing the problem?

[SheperdN7]

ORIGINAL:obvert

Consider that if you have the A6M8 in 43 it's superior to the other models you would have had at this date without the ultra push R & D.

This changes balance, VP totals, possible carrier clashes and ship losses, economic concerns,saves more elite fighter pilots, more bomber pilots, etc. Even in a PDU-off game this could be a problem.

We haven't even mentioned the long bomber path of the D4Y Judy yet. I just got D4Y4 in 4/43. That is a mid-45 kami plane with an 800kg AP bomb. Still not seeing the problem?

Then I'll wait................................................................................................................................................. Time is on my side.


Ah yes the great BBBuster, the D4Y4. I've played Japan enough times to finally realise myself that it is truly impossible to have a focused defence all around the perimeter. You simply can't do it. You can focus on one part and have a moderate-medium level defense on all other sectors. The goal of the Allied player should ALWAYS be to find that focused defence sector and avoid it, even if it is the most strategically logical target for you (like the DEI for a prime example). You can even resize your D4Y4's to 81, all that are eligible at least. The OOB will still kill you in the end. Now that being said, I am a firm believer in the theory that it is possible for the Japanese player to achieve total victory, Naval victory is HIGHLY IMPPROBABLE. Land victory is certainly plausible, especially after seeing how dang weak India is at the onset and also playing around with the ANZACs for awhile.




This message was created by a JFB

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
No one is calling for not using the R&D system. No one is calling for all PDU OFF games. No one is calling for Realistic R&D OFF to be required; in my own game ahistorical R&D is ON and PDU is also ON.

Running models up two years or more early is an abuse of that system.

BIG note to AFB's... Realistic R&D should be ON. If it is off, that doesn't mean I cannot do research. It means I can't freely switch between R&D factories and production factories. It is MORE permissive, not less.

ORIGINAL: Game Manual
2.4.8 REALISTIC R&D This switch controls whether the Japanese player can convert the production of factories which are producing currently available aircraft into ones researching future aircraft, and vice versa. If the switch is set to the “on” position, and the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft type being produced by a factory, the choice of aircraft to convert to will be restricted in the following manner: When switching from an aircraft that is currently available and in production, only other aircraft that are also in production can be selected. Similarly, when that the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft type of a factory that is performing research (see section 13.5), only other aircraft that are also being researched (that is – not yet available for production) can be selected. This represents the differences between mass production factories and research and development centers. In reality these are two different things, and freely swapping between them is not realistic. If the switch is set to the “off” position, no such restrictions apply. This will allow the Japanese player a greater ability to switch production of their factories to any aircraft type, regardless of whether those factories are representing aircraft production or R&D facilities. The default position for this switch is “on”, as this is a more realistic representation of the Japanese aircraft industry. "{/quote]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: pws1225

I respectfully disagree. I see getting the '45 fighters in mid-'43 as a logical consequence of utilizing a system built into the game by the developers. Besides, all these fighters give a JFB is a rough parity with the mid-'43 allied fighters, not air superiority. If you take a look at the stats of the A6M8, the poster child of utilizing the R&D system, you will see that it is about on a par with the early Hellcat, both of which can come on line in mid-43. It's not a war-winner by any stretch of the imagination but it does help Japan stay competitive for a while longer.

More damaging is the George, or the Ki-100. Still, the better mid-war A6M5c model can be crucial to 43 CV battles, and this lets you get that earlier and build big pools sooner.

My point above is not just about superiority, but VPs. If the VP scale is set up based on balance is it still balanced with these research ultra-accelerations?

Another aspect of the debate on R&D system (as well as the ability to accelerate ship production) has to do with the decision a JFB must make between building up his military vs building up his economy. At the outset of every game, a JFB must decide how he is going to handle this balance and design his strategy around it. He can decide to forego the A/C R&D and ship acceleration and hoard the saved HI for the late game siege of the Home Islands, or he can expend the HI to build up his military through the R&D and ship acceleration capabilities gambling that a better equipped military can hold the Allies at bay.

Ok. So it's easy to say this to an AFB who doesn't know the production or RnD system. [:)]

If you do this you can get the N1K5 faster for the same investment you'd usually use. You're starting it's research earlier, so it comes sooner but costs the same. Right?

So not actually the investment you have to consider as deeply regarding the economy.

A large part of the enjoyment of playing the Japanese side is the challenge of designing a strategy that balances these two competing demands for resources in such a way to enhance your chance of a more favourable outcome. Stated more simply, for me at least, the war comes down to placing a bet on the proper allocation of resources then playing the game to its conclusion to see if your gamble will pay off. This is very similar to the kind of gamble that other Japanese players make when they expend huge quantities of supplies trying to take India, Australia, or even the west coast to achieve auto-victory.

But in this case you bet less to get the same payout. Or bet the same and get a bigger payout. [:D]

I doubt I will change your mind, Mr. Moose, but I hope that I have explained why I find the use of the R&D system and other aspects game so central to the enjoyment of the game for the Japanese player. It is the side every riverboat gambler would want to play, even if the odds are still stacked against him.

It's a hell of a game, wouldn't you say? [:)]

Just my two cents.

I've used this push in my current game, but only from the mid-game on. It will get some 45 fighters to me faster. I wanted to see how much faster and if that really felt right. We'll see, but this whole trade-off argument you're using doesn't work if you push the timeframe with the R & D jump. There is no extra cost to switch an already repaired factory.

You're paying the same for better results.

I disagree about there not being a cost or that you're paying the same for better results, because you're ignoring a not-so-minor quibble:

If you devote (say) 5 factories to researching the N1K1 (or any other 2nd generation plane for that matter), and then skip them forward to the end of the line as they become repaired, you will basically never use the initial model of that line as you won't have any production factories for it. So instead of getting the N1K1 in mid-43, you're getting the N1K5 in early-44 or something. That's a definite cost.

OR you could use more factories (which has its own opportunity cost), or allow 1 to switch to production (decreasing your R&D effort) and pump its production up. This will in turn require more engines to maintain your engine pools, which is more HI and supplies for the expansion and more HI for the consumption.

That is either: a) not paying the same (you spent more to increase a single factory to production of the first model in the line), and/or b) are not getting the same results. I think the results are worse, personally, because if you're still subsisting on A6M2/A6M3a Zeroes and Vals in 1943 you're going to have a worse time of it than if you'd paused to research a version of the A6M5 and the D4Y1.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

I still don't see what the problem is, if its an "over acceleration" of R&D airframes, I can offer a mere theory as to why this is...

If you want to super accelerate to the A6M8, by all means go ahead. Lets see how it fairs against my hellcats and corsairs and proximity-fused flak shells[:)]

Consider that if you have the A6M8 in 43 it's superior to the other models you would have had at this date without the ultra push R & D.

This changes balance, VP totals, possible carrier clashes and ship losses, economic concerns,saves more elite fighter pilots, more bomber pilots, etc. Even in a PDU-off game this could be a problem.

We haven't even mentioned the long bomber path of the D4Y Judy yet. I just got D4Y4 in 4/43. That is a mid-45 kami plane with an 800kg AP bomb. Still not seeing the problem?

They die the same as D4Y3's... [:'(]

And there is a cost. We can debate whether that cost is too low. It probably is. But it isn't cost free to do this vs. doing standard (both in terms of opportunity cost and resource cost).

[InfiniteMonkey]

I think in some limited situations that skipping is entirely justified by historical events and capabilities (A6M8, Ki-100).

Despite my avid support of skipping models as a legitimate tactic in those cases, I must admit that I find research to be too easy for Japan. I think my biggest issue is that there were limited numbers of designers in Japan and the game doesn't really demand sacrifices in design efforts for one model to advance another model.

[PaxMondo]

Actually, it wasn't aircraft designs that caused the delays, it was the engines. The entire Ha-4x family had induction issues that delayed ALL of the "late war" designs. If you address that issue (tech trade with GER/ITA), then SAM is ready in 6 months later easily ... ditto for George/Frank/.... aircraft designs were not the limiting factor. This is why all the Oscar/Zero models came from. Designers were stuck with the Ha-3x series until late war ....

[n01487477]

There is always the modding option to fix all of this by having short upgrade paths, engine changes and load cost (HI cost) multiplication for both frames and engines... plus a number of other options such as weapon modification variants etc that could make this more in-depth. Unfortunately, I never finished that mod with NYGiants. But it goes without saying that the official scenario's are open to this.

[edit] I forgot one other thing I put in it ... every a/c had to be researched as they all had months and years added to their availability

[Reg]

I believe the developers (and modders) seriously under estimate the ability of players to get around restrictions and take advantage of the system.

[szmike]

ORIGINAL: Reg


I believe the developers (and modders) seriously under estimate the ability of players to get around restrictions and take advantage of the system.

But the advantage is blown out of proprtion by AFBs, so it evens out in the end... and JFBs are still going to kill their supply economy sooner or later, depending on skill.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: szmike


... and JFBs are still going to kill their supply economy sooner or later, depending on skill.

Many do. If you are playing PDU ON and Realistic RnD OFF, then I would say you also play with no VP. This then says first off you are playing outside the historical parameters that the Devs created, you realize that, and so you also understand that the VP system they created no longer functions. If the IJ player doesn't tank his economy in '44 (most will/do), then the allied player will get to use ALL of his toys, in particular all of the ones that come after SOV activation. Even with ALL of the above thrown in, the IJ will struggle to keep the allies out of the HI. Meaning, it is a really fun and hotly contested end game. Those last 8 months when the allies are getting essentially endless P51H and B17's on top of the unbelievable numbers of SOV ARM and ARTY .... you have to play it to really understand the carnage that occurs EVERY day.

[&o] [&o][&o]

[Numdydar]

+1 to this lol

I'll never forget a raid in late '44 in a PBEM game where the Allies had 600+ planes in an attack [X(]. As Japan, I did not have anything even close to those numbers anytime during the game lol.

At that timeframe multiple 200-300 plane raids by the Allies were pretty common multiple times a turn. Nothing you produce as Japan is going to make much of a dent in those numbers.

The VP system is pretty useless since both side can easily get an AV. Japan in '43 by overrunning China and no Midway type losses. The Allies in '45 without even touching the Japanese HI. So the players need to determine what is a 'win'. Mine as Japan is to last longer than historical [:)] Have not done it yet [:(]. Except against the AI [:)]

[pws1225]

+2 to that.

The late game is really is really the best part of the game for the Japanese player. Sure, you are getting whacked from every direction but are also finding out if the strategic gambles you made early are paying off or not. And you get the benefit of interior LOCs, very interior indeed! [:D]

I only made to the late war once (August '45) before my opponent bumped his VPs to achieve a major victory. I narrowly missed my benchmark of victory of lasting longer than historical and keeping the Allies from achieving a major victory. But I had a blast getting my arse handed to me.

[Numdydar]

'Blast' being the operative word here [:D] You are definitely getting 'blasted' each and every turn. [:@] It really makes us JFB's 'special' to be willing to keep playing [;)].

But I agree, more JFB's should be willing to go the distance as the late war really is an amazing education on how truly awesome the Allied power was at this stage of the war.

[Lokasenna]

Short points before I run out for errands:

a) I don't think most IJ players "will/do" run out of supplies in 1944.
b) There are more examples of games going into 1944 than there are of "most" IJ players not being willing to continue beyond 1943
c) There are probably as many dropped Allied games as there are IJ games.

[MakeeLearn]

R&D favors the bold.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

What do you mean by "wire chart for A/C development?"

It's linked in the first post of this thread