Understandings rd factories

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
..... to Frank production in the first couple of turns: something around 10-12 factories size 30.

There is no point to expanding the Frank in the first few turns.

Totally disagree. Frank and Sam are two of the most important planes, perhaps most important planes Japan gets. You need to research them from day 1 pretty heavily if supplies at the base allow you to. If not from day 2 when the supplies are in.

+1

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Chris H



There is no point to expanding the Frank in the first few turns.

Totally disagree. Frank and Sam are two of the most important planes, perhaps most important planes Japan gets. You need to research them from day 1 pretty heavily if supplies at the base allow you to. If not from day 2 when the supplies are in.

+1

-2

Not to it's important just it's not necessary to do it from the start.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Not to it's important just it's not necessary to do it from the start.

Why? Every day delay is a day you will not have them. As the IJ, you want them ASAP, not eventually. I'm not following you here ... [&:]

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Not to it's important just it's not necessary to do it from the start.

Why? Every day delay is a day you will not have them. As the IJ, you want them ASAP, not eventually. I'm not following you here ... [&:]

I'm a little sceptical about how quickly factories repair which is at the heart of this, approx. 63% as stated by InfiniteMonkey. I'm currently testing this in game, well as much as I can from one game anyway. If the 63% is correct then I should see the existing Frank factory fully repaired around June 43.

When I started my current game I change three more Frank factories from the start but planned to expand all a year before they were due, Apr 43. Having read the article it was impossible to do much about it so I decided to stagger instead, one I did at that point, Aug 42, the next will be Dec 42 and the final one Apr 43. Not a specifically accurate experiment but it will satisfy my curiosity.

But that's not the real reason I will not do it from the start. For me there are other intermediate a/c and engine expansions more important not to mention other supply requirements for your precious supply before the Frank. I will in future consider doing so if my test gives me any indication that the 63% is correct but supply will still be the critical factor so any expansion would not occur for 3-4 months.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

For stock type scenarios:
If you go big, 15*30 or 18*30 factories, from the start you can expect it mid '44-ish. Anything earlier would require a lot of luck. If you are playing stock type scenario, it is worth it. If PDU OFF, for sure go 18*30 or more as ALL IJN fighter groups will upgrade to A7M giving your overall fighter forces a huge upgrade. In PDU On, 15*30 is more appropriate as N1K is a very good interim LBA fighter for the IJN. OR if you plan to ground your KB, you may choose to go only 12*30 and focus more on getting the N1K earlier which can be an effective strategy.

A lot of this is about your overall strategy. There is NO single recipe for the IJN. Experience with the game will give you more options, not fewer. [8D]

One cannot, in any way, put 18 factories on A7M2 in PDU:off. No air group can upgrade to the A7M2 until they first upgrade to the A6M8. One cannot skip steps in PDU:off on the upgrade tree. Therefore, if you advance the A7M2 to 4/44, it will be of no benefit, because no group will be able to upgrade to it until the A6M8 is available in 8/45. Furthermore, in PDU:off, one has to produce all sorts of planes, not just a couple of models. This limits the number of factories that can be dedicated to R&D. There are simply not 18 factories available. One needs 10-15 for Frank. One needs a handful for Oscar (or Frank is not so helpful, since one has to upgrade many squadrons through a few Oscars before converting to Franks). The Tony and Tojo are very helpful and one gets 300 or so of these planes (more in DBB), so it is better to put 2-4 factories of 30 on Tony and Tojo rather than 1 factory of 45 or 60, which costs the same amount of supply but will generate no R&D, because it will have to convert to production.

PDU:off is a different animal altogether, and it is very difficult to find more than 4 factories to assign to the A7M2. What is more, in DBB, all the land-based squadrons go from Zeros to A7M3-J, which is very frustrating and foolish design decision by the makers of DBB (since these late-war upgrades are all hypothetical).

What one can do in PDU:off is advance the A6M8 to 9/43 or so (after going through the tree from A6M5 to A6M5c), and then convert 4 or 5 additional factories to Sam. The best that can be hoped for on Sam in PDU:off is about 9 or 10/44 by my estimation. The advantage, however, is that the Japanese naval air will be competitive throughout 1943, flying A6M8s against Hellcats.

[Numdydar]

This is spot on.

PDU Off is a real nightmare for Japan. I've played exactly one CG with PDU Off and will never do so again. The whole time I played I had to wonder 'what wee these morons thinking?'

There are some benefits to playing a PDU Off game though.

- you get to see rivalry between IJN and IJA as very few IJA squadrons will upgrade to any IJN AC. Which leaves you in the beginning having to use Nates as escorts in some locations. At least I did as they were better than nothing lol.
- have the experience of fighting the war with absolute crappy AC as you will need them to get some squadrons to upgrade to the AC you do want
- Almost everything has to be researched due to the above. This includes most engine factories. So you get to see and use almost every AC that Japan made during the real war and form your own opinions about each of them.

Based on my experience with Japan, playing a PBEM with PDU Off is a recipe for a quick loss. Against equal players anyway.

Even with PDU On I just made it into '45 in my last PBEM game. Although I was playing someone a lot better than I too. Since he is not on the forums much I can claim that and no one will be around to tell me otherwise [:)]

People will tell you that PDU Off impacts the Allies as well. And that is true. But the Allies still won with PDU Off so I would not call that a real reason to play a game with PDU Off. Unless you want the experience I have listed above. Just plan on losing sooner than later.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
- you get to see rivalry between IJN and IJA as very few IJA squadrons will upgrade to any IJN AC. Which leaves you in the beginning having to use Nates as escorts in some locations. At least I did as they were better than nothing lol.

Umm, IJN can never use IJA planes and vice versa as far as I can recall. PDU status does not matter.

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
People will tell you that PDU Off impacts the Allies as well. And that is true. But the Allies still won with PDU Off so I would not call that a real reason to play a game with PDU Off. Unless you want the experience I have listed above. Just plan on losing sooner than later.

Well, Allies have it easier in a sense that their restriction is airframe pools, not research and upgrade paths. As long as you use correct units on the front with the access to available planes and all others in the back, you are not that much different from PDU ON

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

For stock type scenarios:
If you go big, 15*30 or 18*30 factories, from the start you can expect it mid '44-ish. Anything earlier would require a lot of luck. If you are playing stock type scenario, it is worth it. If PDU OFF, for sure go 18*30 or more as ALL IJN fighter groups will upgrade to A7M giving your overall fighter forces a huge upgrade. In PDU On, 15*30 is more appropriate as N1K is a very good interim LBA fighter for the IJN. OR if you plan to ground your KB, you may choose to go only 12*30 and focus more on getting the N1K earlier which can be an effective strategy.

A lot of this is about your overall strategy. There is NO single recipe for the IJN. Experience with the game will give you more options, not fewer. [8D]

One cannot, in any way, put 18 factories on A7M2 in PDU:off. No air group can upgrade to the A7M2 until they first upgrade to the A6M8. One cannot skip steps in PDU:off on the upgrade tree. Therefore, if you advance the A7M2 to 4/44, it will be of no benefit, because no group will be able to upgrade to it until the A6M8 is available in 8/45. Furthermore, in PDU:off, one has to produce all sorts of planes, not just a couple of models. This limits the number of factories that can be dedicated to R&D. There are simply not 18 factories available. One needs 10-15 for Frank. One needs a handful for Oscar (or Frank is not so helpful, since one has to upgrade many squadrons through a few Oscars before converting to Franks). The Tony and Tojo are very helpful and one gets 300 or so of these planes (more in DBB), so it is better to put 2-4 factories of 30 on Tony and Tojo rather than 1 factory of 45 or 60, which costs the same amount of supply but will generate no R&D, because it will have to convert to production.

PDU:off is a different animal altogether, and it is very difficult to find more than 4 factories to assign to the A7M2. What is more, in DBB, all the land-based squadrons go from Zeros to A7M3-J, which is very frustrating and foolish design decision by the makers of DBB (since these late-war upgrades are all hypothetical).

What one can do in PDU:off is advance the A6M8 to 9/43 or so (after going through the tree from A6M5 to A6M5c), and then convert 4 or 5 additional factories to Sam. The best that can be hoped for on Sam in PDU:off is about 9 or 10/44 by my estimation. The advantage, however, is that the Japanese naval air will be competitive throughout 1943, flying A6M8s against Hellcats.

First, I only reference stock scenario 1. There are so many mods, they are what they are. DBB is a mod. Put together by Henderson team members, but still a mod.

Never said you don't need interim A6M. I stated almost ALL IJN FIGHTER will upgrade to A7M. Unlike any other late model. Many IJA upgrade to Frank, but far from all. Only a few groups upgrade to your other air models. You like flying A6M until '45, that's ok. I hate it. And 5x30 Sam will not get you 10/44 unless you are shot with luck. That's 11 months pull in, you will be lucky with a 5x30 plan after A6M8 to have 2 factories repaired and generating RnD pts by 10/44 with that plan. Arrival date will be more like 4/45 ... without engine bonus.

Putting 8 factories on Oscar (production + RnD) and 8 on A6M (production and RnD). Then big on A7M. You should see A7M mid '44 (+15 months pull in). Getting A7M before mid-year in '44, particularly in a PDU OFF game makes a difference. I've gotten it earlier than that, but it is luck. Just remember, the statistics in this case are a one sided curve. It matters ...

Because it is PDU-OFF you need to assign a factory each to a lot of other models: George, Nick, Tojo, Tony, et al. But just one. Easy to size a single factory correctly, just needs to be planned for, and most of those models come later ... plenty of time.

My overall belief is that getting a new model 1 or 2 months early is a very minor benefit, player tactics and skill will easily be more important. Getting a key fighter model a year early can make a difference on par with player tactics. It won't cancel out poor or sloppy play, but it will both mitigate marginal play and enhance those good days into great days. IJ only needs a few really great days to clip the allied wings.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


First, I only reference stock scenario 1. There are so many mods, they are what they are. DBB is a mod. Put together by Henderson team members, but still a mod.

Never said you don't need interim A6M. I stated almost ALL IJN FIGHTER will upgrade to A7M. Unlike any other late model. Many IJA upgrade to Frank, but far from all. Only a few groups upgrade to your other air models. You like flying A6M until '45, that's ok. I hate it. And 5x30 Sam will not get you 10/44 unless you are shot with luck. That's 11 months pull in, you will be lucky with a 5x30 plan after A6M8 to have 2 factories repaired and generating RnD pts by 10/44 with that plan. Arrival date will be more like 4/45 ... without engine bonus.

Putting 8 factories on Oscar (production + RnD) and 8 on A6M (production and RnD). Then big on A7M. You should see A7M mid '44 (+15 months pull in). Getting A7M before mid-year in '44, particularly in a PDU OFF game makes a difference. I've gotten it earlier than that, but it is luck. Just remember, the statistics in this case are a one sided curve. It matters ...

Because it is PDU-OFF you need to assign a factory each to a lot of other models: George, Nick, Tojo, Tony, et al. But just one. Easy to size a single factory correctly, just needs to be planned for, and most of those models come later ... plenty of time.

My overall belief is that getting a new model 1 or 2 months early is a very minor benefit, player tactics and skill will easily be more important. Getting a key fighter model a year early can make a difference on par with player tactics. It won't cancel out poor or sloppy play, but it will both mitigate marginal play and enhance those good days into great days. IJ only needs a few really great days to clip the allied wings.

You do not really need 8 factories on the Oscar, in my opinion. The object is simply to advance Oscar enough to convert squadrons out of Oscar to Tojo, Tony, and especially Frank. Many squadrons convert to Frank directly from the IIa or IIb, so the IIIa is not completely essential and the IV is completely optional. I have 4 on Oscar in my two games currently (though these are DBB where the upgrade paths differ slightly from stock and are more favorable to the IJA). I am beginning to think that 4 may be enough in stock as well.

The point of Tony and Tojo R&D is to advance the later models, because there are 5 or 6 Oscar squadrons that convert to later model Tonies and Tojos without first converting to the early model Tonies and Tojos. If you do no Tony or Tojo R&D, these squadrons will be stuck on Oscar until 1944. Since you want your Tony and Tojo production to scale with the number of available squadrons, it makes more sense to put 2-4 factories on each, using the extra factories for R&D, and converting these to production as more Tony and Tojo squadrons become available. You also get many more months advancement for your 3rd generation fighters this way than if you put these factories on Frank or a late-war dream plane. It is simply more efficient in every way.

Converting an additional 3-4 A6 factories to Sam in 1944 can, by my estimation, bump up Sam to late 1944, on average. The supply use is not really excessive, since 4-5 factories on Sam will only produce 120-150 planes, and the IJN will certainly want many more than this when the plane is available.

[PaxMondo]

Totally disagree.

We play a lot differently. No prob.

I'm enjoying reading your AAR. Hope you are able to go the distance.

Good Luck.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Totally disagree.

We play a lot differently. No prob.

I'm enjoying reading your AAR. Hope you are able to go the distance.

Good Luck.

I hope so too. I have two games going ATM, and both of my opponents are capable and committed to the game, so I have high hopes. These have certainly been the toughest games that I have played so far.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
- you get to see rivalry between IJN and IJA as very few IJA squadrons will upgrade to any IJN AC. Which leaves you in the beginning having to use Nates as escorts in some locations. At least I did as they were better than nothing lol.

Umm, IJN can never use IJA planes and vice versa as far as I can recall. PDU status does not matter.

There are some IJA squadrons that can use Zero's iirc. So those were the ones I was referring to.

[VigaBrand]

@Pax: Could you explain, why you R&D the Oscar series? I read often that there will be very bad and obsolete.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

@Pax: Could you explain, why you R&D the Oscar series? I read often that there will be very bad and obsolete.

Range. Take a look at the following list of Japanese fighters sorted by Drop Tank extended range (longest range to shortest). In addition to having comparable range, the Oscars enjoy advantages over the Zero in speed, durability, but most importantly armor (starting with the IIb model in 5/43). Escorts are ablative armor for your bombers. It helps if they are themselves armored.

[Aurorus]

The problem, Infinitemonkey, is the armament of the Oscar (and eventually its speed, the same problem with the Zero). The machinegun is not sufficient to down high durability U.S. fighters to say nothing of 4-Es. The Zero, with its cannons, can shoot down the enemy. Japan must try to maintain air superiority through 1942 and be competitive in 1943. This cannot be done with Oscar because Oscar does not deplete the allied fighter or bomber force pool. This is why Tony and Tojo are essential "bridges" to the Frank. Tony is excellent against 4-Es, and Tojo will get kills in air-to-air combat.

In my opinion, the Zero 3 and Zero 3a are not very important, since the Zero's primary role is as a CV fighter. Higher altitude manueverability is not critical to the Zero. The Zero remains useful because of its cannons and low-medium altitude manueverability. The A6 series is not fully obsolete until Corsairs appear over allied CVs.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

This is spot on.

PDU Off is a real nightmare for Japan. I've played exactly one CG with PDU Off and will never do so again. The whole time I played I had to wonder 'what wee these morons thinking?'

There are some benefits to playing a PDU Off game though.

- you get to see rivalry between IJN and IJA as very few IJA squadrons will upgrade to any IJN AC. Which leaves you in the beginning having to use Nates as escorts in some locations. At least I did as they were better than nothing lol.
- have the experience of fighting the war with absolute crappy AC as you will need them to get some squadrons to upgrade to the AC you do want
- Almost everything has to be researched due to the above. This includes most engine factories. So you get to see and use almost every AC that Japan made during the real war and form your own opinions about each of them.

Based on my experience with Japan, playing a PBEM with PDU Off is a recipe for a quick loss. Against equal players anyway.

Even with PDU On I just made it into '45 in my last PBEM game. Although I was playing someone a lot better than I too. Since he is not on the forums much I can claim that and no one will be around to tell me otherwise [:)]

People will tell you that PDU Off impacts the Allies as well. And that is true. But the Allies still won with PDU Off so I would not call that a real reason to play a game with PDU Off. Unless you want the experience I have listed above. Just plan on losing sooner than later.

I disagree somewhat. I think PDU:off provides a much more balanced game. In PDU:on, the Japanese can swarm... swarm... the allies with Tojos and Tonies from mid 1942 until mid 1943, absolutely wrecking the allied force pool. This is simply unrealistic and can make for a very frustrating game for the allied player. It also makes auto-victory for Japan too easy to achieve.

[decourcy2]

Why is it unrealistic? The Japanese army leadership liked the Ki44, pilots didn't like it's lower maneuverability, but that could have been overcome. American pilots hated how big the P47 and P38 were and got used to it, and British pilots hated the Hurri after flying the Gladiator. The Ki44 was simple to produce, the Ki61 a bit less so, but they could have built more. The Ki61 production was more a reflection of Nakajima's power in the Japanese 'government'.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: decourcy2

Why is it unrealistic? The Japanese army leadership liked the Ki44, pilots didn't like it's lower maneuverability, but that could have been overcome. American pilots hated how big the P47 and P38 were and got used to it, and British pilots hated the Hurri after flying the Gladiator. The Ki44 was simple to produce, the Ki61 a bit less so, but they could have built more. The Ki61 production was more a reflection of Nakajima's power in the Japanese 'government'.

It is a "variant" that was possible to be sure, which makes it play more like a mod, than a historical wargame. It probably would have been the correct strategy for Japan to pursue. What makes it unrealistic is the way in which the production system works in this game. It allows for a very fast increase in actual production facilities for early-war aircraft, including the Tojo and Tony. Japan can be producing 240 Tojos per month, for example, by May 1942. While U.S. fighter production is not anemic, this rate dwarfs U.S. production and will make the air-war completely lopsided for 18 months: P-38s or no. Japan could not have increased its production of this engine, especially, so rapidly. Of course, Japan can produce 240 Tojos in PDU:off as well, but this is pointless, since Japan can only have 96 Tojos IIas in action at any one time in 1942.

Of course, you can argue that the game allows the Japanese player to modify Japanese war-time production as well as strategy, and therefore, PDU:off is not "mod-like." To which I reply that the major issue then becomes game balance. If Japan exploits Tojo and Tony production it creates an unbalanced game that will not be enjoyable for many allied players, and enjoyment is the entire point of the game.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Totally disagree.

We play a lot differently. No prob.

I'm enjoying reading your AAR. Hope you are able to go the distance.

Good Luck.

I hope so too. I have two games going ATM, and both of my opponents are capable and committed to the game, so I have high hopes. These have certainly been the toughest games that I have played so far.

You have two games going ATM? What's your password?

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

@Pax: Could you explain, why you R&D the Oscar series? I read often that there will be very bad and obsolete.

As InfiniteMonkey states, range. Also the Oscar becomes one hell of a fighter-bomber. Start training a cadre of fighter pilots to sink ships. As fighters sweeping, you need the range to get there. Oscars are not great interceptors, but the IJA doesn't do a great job in any category of aircraft for a long time and you have to make do with what you get. Just train the heck out of them.