Korut Zelva vs Taxman66: Battle of the newbie

[Taxman66]

Is there any negative consequence or disincentive for the Axis to attack Vichy and/or her territories particularly when its less than 4 months after they've been created?
I get that the other Vichy territories don't like it... but is that all?

[Taxman66]

Allied Turn: November 5, 1940

Pass the salt please. [:@]

Boy did I screw up this turn with newbie errors.

I ran my UK Engineers Transport right into a sub raiding the Egyptian convoy line near the Red Sea Way point. This right after
I had chased away his CA the previous turn. This was supremely stupid. I could've stopped short of the convoy line since
I wasn't going to get to the transition hex this turn anyway. The Eng will die next turn.
On a side note it seems almost impossible to trap enemy ships. What they can't chase/maintain contact with a crippled ship that is surrounded?
That seems really silly.

I compounded the error when I failed to switch the mode of the CV I sent with the mini fleet. thus air strikes did zilch.
I did get a minor hit on the sub with the DD.

An Italian Army retook Mersa Matruh (I had taken it but pulled back). I hit it with UK TAC bombers and scored a hit.
I attempted to hit it with the CV and only managed to hurt myself.

His subs, or at least a few of them, are now out raiding my lines and I can't find them. Worse they are getting
complete knock outs of the MPPs.

[KorutZelva]

1940/11/16

Pierre Laval is removed from power after agreeing to german demand to 'garrison' Algeria. Vichy France cuts all diplomatic ties with the Axis.

Royal engineer heard singing 'under the sea' with Ariel and Sebastian.

Despite the recent MPP woes, UK land army stands at 34 units to germany's 41 (values prior to Romania's joining). Should Germany step up U-boat production to complete the stranglehold?

UK infantry just upgraded to tech 1 in egypt prior to contact with the already teched up Italians. Mussolini facing a stalemate in the desert is mulling asking Germany's assistance, as compensation for using Sicily for base in the 'garrisoning' of Tunisia & Algeria.

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Nobody cares about vichy teritories except vichy France and other vichy territories. Vichy France proper has a sizeable impact on the USA and potentially Spain and Switzerland.

I always found found carriers surprisingly good at allowing sub escape by making it dive after a destroyer had nearly killed it.

Ships get to that wounded 'inescapable' point when in low supply. This is rather hard to do because even if you lose out 1 supply for each attack you conduct or sustain if the opponent manages its supply properly, it often dies before falling that low. Mass destroyers/light cruiser can sometime do the trick, they don't inflict damage but saps the supply for others to do the kill.

[OxfordGuy3]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Is there any negative consequence or disincentive for the Axis to attack Vichy and/or her territories particularly when its less than 4 months after they've been created?
I get that the other Vichy territories don't like it... but is that all?

Is there really no other penalty?

In a similar, but older WW2 strategic game I've played, with the exception of Syria, if you attacked one of the North African Vichy states, then ALL joined the opposing side and if you attacked mainland Vichy, then ALL the Vichy states join the other side.

[Taxman66]

Has this been discussed anywhere, I'd like ti read it. It also goes to my asking about this sort of thing earlier. At first glance, why would Germany ever go for full france when he can just pick off North Africa and then take Vichy proper once the USA is in the war?

I'm also getting the distinct impression that my opponent is not truely a newbie.

As for thise UK ground forces it should be pretty obvious that many of them were freebies (triggered at the same time as the Iraq coup) and bunch are garrisons built to defend the beaches. To do even that I've sacraficed a lot of Tech investment.

Now the rock is likely to go soon and I don't see a way to avoid it other than pitting my fleet vs. land based air.

[crispy131313]

Could either of you post a unit count. I haven't played the Vanilla scenario since closed Beta, and I'm curious as to how many land/naval units there are at this point in the game. Also what is German income at?

[KorutZelva]

While your newbieness express itself in tactical failures (misclicks and the like), mine is more at the macro-level strategy errors (which I'll be able to discuss in details after the game is done. :0))

I'm a veteran in a sense of the SC series but I have yet completed a complete game of this iteration because I've spent countless hours trying to tweak the scripts and setting for an Italy-solo game. I'm familiar to the theaters of war Italy is active (Vichy shenanigans) but never conducted Barbarossa proper. I'm familiar with Allies event but not familiar with their initial unit count and tech level. Although I know that by taking the baltic states we are going to start right in each other grill, I don't know what the unit placement for Barbarossa by heart.

In regards to the benefit going full France, I did make the comment in my 'Nitpicky Korut reviews all decisions' post. :0)

[Taxman66]

I have not, nor likely will, read every thread and post. ;p

I do believe your familiarity with previous versions is significant enough.
I'm an experienced (not great mind you) World in Flames player all the back to version 4* through current FE. Im even more experienced with Days of Decision (There may not even have been a v3 of that game without my thousand+ of hours of working on meshing the rules of DOD v2 to mesh with WIF 5, then later WIF FE, which Harry took 90+% of to create DOD3.

Enough tooting my own horn...
However I've never played a hex based navel system like this (I much prefer the zone based WIF), nor have I ever played a war game that doesn't allow any stacking. The basic mechanics of the game I haven't seen in 20-25 years when a friend picked up the newly released Panzer General computer game.

I've read some of the UK strategy threads, but the advice is all over the place. I guess that is a good thing in that there is no one optimal path.

I'll say this there is more strategic level fog of war in this game than in any other I've ever played. You have no clue what the opponent is building or researching until it shows up on the map in view. I also have no baseline of what is too much or to little.
How do you defend the British isle's? Land units, fighters, the navy? How much to put in Egypt? How much in research, how much in upgrading? How many DD should be sub hunting, and how many screening the capital ships? You can't do it all (nor should you be able to) But I have no clue between too little and too much. Also with the new sub and asw rule changess that is another mandatory expense (note that it costs the allies more as both the UK and USA have to it) than the Axis/GE, and the subs are starting the game stronger than current version.
I expect to get schooled, I didn't expect to feel powerless to stop it.

Anyway enough "whinging" as the Hound would say. I'll just make sure not to take my turn when I'm overly tired.

[KorutZelva]

If it makes you feel better you are making quite a good account of yourself so far. Don't sell yourself short. I guess both of us are 'professional newbies'?

You're supposed to feel 'in the ropes' until my army gets bogged down in Russia. True to life.

I think we are pretty evenly matched, my slight edge past experience with SC is offset by playing the Axis, the generally accepted harder side.

[The Land]

What? UK has 34 land units and Germany has 41? That is an ... interesting build strategy on both sides. If UK has been spamming out garrisons, Germany has presumably been upgrading panzers to have alloy wheels, pimped up sound systems and built-in Jacuzzis.....

[KorutZelva]

Part of it is that my minors had not all joined yet, part of it is I timed all my builds to show up during the Dec-Feb period (and part of it is going heavy on tech?). But yeah... I'm kinda hoping I'll have enough foot on the ground to march in Russia. I'm a bit nervous but don't tell Taxman.

[Taxman66]

I'm down 1 due to stupid naval move, so 33? I haven't looked at the chart.

I got the kiwis and Aussies early; I got the recon, arty, anti-tank from the Iraq sanction/El Alamein threat early (still not sure how); and Germany didn't go after the BEF to knock France out a turn early.

I wanted to be absolutely sure there wasn't a 1940 sea lion, and I want to make a 1941 attenpt to be as hard and painful as possible. As I said earlier I have no clue what is too much and what is too little. I do know I don't want empty hexes next to ports near the channel.

I hope to get to a turn tonight, but no promises.

[Taxman66]

Allied Turn: November 27, 1940

The German sub near the Canary Islands that killed the British Engineers gets away and can't be found.

Another German sub in the mid Atlantic preying on US shipments to the UK is found and manages to disengage. It's
not much help as the shipments are still completely lost.

With the Luftwaffe engaged in the Med, Bomber Command orders the Halifaxs and early Lancasters on Bombing runs to Calais
and Cherbourg. German Me109s stationed from the Hague intercept the mission to Calais. Bomber losses are negligible as
Spitfire and Hurricane escorts engage the 109s. Fighter losses are approximately equal, and even the bombers score some kills
The raid on Cherbourg goes cleanly with no opposition. The results of the Bombing runs aren't clear (saw hits but no numbers flashed).
A German army is spotted in Calais as is an Infantry Corps in Cherbourg.
British Intelligence begins debating if Sea Lion is off, due to the activity in the Atlantic and the lack of full fighter coverage
over occupied France.

In Egypt things are going better. Three Italian Armies and what remains of the Italian tanks (reinforcement levels unknown) are spotted.
The lead army east of Mersa Matruh is attacked by UK tactical bombers which go un-intercepted. This is followed with an artillery barrage
which also scores a hit. Follow up attacks by the WDF army, the 7th Armor, another artillery barrage (with yet another hit) and finally the
Italian army is destroyed by 12th Corps.

The allies have scored their first full kill on an Axis unit!



---
Question: How many subs does it take to completely knock out a convoy line? Germany is wiping out all but 1 line and I
chased/forced a dive on a sub on one line and it was still completely knocked out. This is pretty obnoxious. It's hard enough
to find the damn things, and when you do you barely scratch them more than they do back.

Newbie stuff: The only mistake this turn was attempting to recon with a CV. I had pushed the shift key down to get the line and
red circle at destination thinking that was how to do it. Nope, even with that indicator I believe you have to hold the shift key
down while left clicking. I should've experimented first. Instead the CV moved where I didn't want it to.

Economic stuff:
UK Diplo: 150
UK Research: 425

IT Diplo: 150
IT Research: 325

GE Diplo: 300
GE Research: 1,800

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

Possibly... but sometimes you have to stick to your principles! I do get the plunder I wouldn't normally get though from using the decision (I think!).

I thought (167,59) was both a land and sea square (like some straits are), it looks like a sea square only. Well so much for an airborne invasion! This is all your fault Bill (and or Hubert)! Norway is at 25% (starting at 0%) and the war has barely started so maybe I can just wait it out. I think the check to disgruntle them is made on both my turn and your turn. Defenders will appear no matter how you conquer norway, it's not tied to the decisions AFAIK. If they diplomatically join, well they have their own garrisons.

May 6, 1940



Panzer strike south of the Ardennes, and achieve in a couple of weeks what they couldn't in an entire war: Verdun falls! Last turn to operate everything to Paris! In the north, first contact made with the UK expeditionary force at calais. Will the perfidious albions high-tail it before a gunshot is even fired?

Cropping those things make you think a lot more about what your enemy can see. I screwed up in a couple of places and was too lazy to fix it but I'll get the hang of it eventually.

if i be permited; dont understand well the FRENCH defense; but is very important that Paris is taken in MAY; if FRENCH plays normal; the German in my opinión must do the same as ROMMEL did so armored división plus stukas always NORTH; the same as the German did; but if you conquer parís after MAY is not good because the russians are getting more Mpps

I always in this game Invade Russia in MAY 1941 at last (and conquer Yugoslavia before) WITH my ITALIAN ARMORED DIVISION[:'(]

[Zecke]

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[KorutZelva]

Income (roughly) at 660 for Germany, 100 for Italy, 200 for UK, 180 for USSR, 135 for USA.

Italians withdraw once more to lick their wounds, offensives operations will have to wait for the DAK. Germans refit their armies and deploy more troops to the field.

Others can chime in on the standard fall of France timelines but looking at other AAR (vs humans) it seems that anything before august is considered good.

[Taxman66]

You did get to launch the attack early with an early spring mud turn vs. the low countries and then completly clear thereafter.
I was also unwilling to force you to attack the BEF.

However, having said that I'm sure I could've done better. Reinforcing the FR HQ instead of buying the AA and getting the FR ENG (and operating it) via DE.

I should run a test game and see if it is worthwhile to send the FR ENG to Egypt to get 3 x2fortsides built.

[KorutZelva]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

You did get to launch the attack early with an early spring mud turn vs. the low countries and then completly clear thereafter.
I was also unwilling to force you to attack the BEF.

However, having said that I'm sure I could've done better. Reinforcing the FR HQ instead of buying the AA and getting the FR ENG (and operating it) via DE.

I should run a test game and see if it is worthwhile to send the FR ENG to Egypt to get 3 x2fortsides built.

The life of the newbie is a life of regrets.

I also started my long list of things I would change the next time around. I've also seen merits in some of your approach with the allies that I would tweak and incorporate in my own play of them.

[Taxman66]

Allied Turn: December 17, 1940

Giant Newbie Mistake this turn.
Should've run a test first.
Thought I could sneak out the Gibraltar GAR and leave it empty for a single turn without my opponent knowing.
Nope, there's a pop up saying that it happened and that Franco swings towards the Axis.
If the Axis can take advantage I'm pretty much outright hosed.

* I need to stop taking turns late in the evening and without testing ramifications when I want to do something risky or off the wall.
I'm very disappointed in myself. *

Nothing else of note this turn.

[KorutZelva]

Is there such thing as an allied only pop-up? Because I didn't get one regarding that on my end.

Don't worry about it, I've been running experimentation on the fly too. I had 2 paradrop and a bomber deployed for a norway invasion before realising it was too far. Didn't check it first. These might have been handy in France.

Other than that it feels like I'm facing Montgomery jr, taxman quitely biding is time until he can get a 3 vs 1 ratio. :0)

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DAK deployed this turn. Fun starts...

I forgot to report I saw a Garrison unit sneak into Iraq last turn... maybe I could operate 2 bombers there to destroy it. It would delay Iraq fall by forcing him to send a real unit.