M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet)

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Are you bombing airbases aggressively or are you using the VVS in a defensive stance?

no & no

Airbase attacks are not my primary focus as the loss ratios aren't very favorable. Some will argue that there are plenty of aircraft available to lose, but I prefer to use them to support the army where opportunities exist.

I have not seen too many games go into 1943, but I might propose that the Soviet Air force is ill designed to cover the tactical battlespace.

If the Soviet puts Fighter ranges over the tactical battlespace:


1. German can use recon to find the longest range the fighters will react

2. The German then does "fighter sweeps" forcing the Soviet to fly to the longest ranges with a positive EV (Expected Value) in kills.

Then 3 …


3a. Soviet player places airbases in the Tactical battlespace .. Stukas smash airfields no fighters left

3b. Soviet player places airbases outside of tactical bomber range but within escorted fighter range still a poor result for the Soviets

3c. Soviet player places airbases outside of German fighter range (point 2 is particuarly effective in this case) and unescorted bombers kill damaged fighters on the ground.


Worse in this case the Soviet airforce is divided in protecting strategic industry and trying in vain to project power over the tactical battlespace. Soviets lose …

Then .. if bombers react during German attacks they will be unescorted or poorly escorted and take additional kills.


So it might be best to use the Soviets on the attack within the tactical battlespace where bases are farther back and fighters are defending vulnerable strategic targets.

The 2 ground bombings per turn are quite effective because the bombings induce disruption which becomes fatigue and 1/3 of fatigue applies to reducing CV ..though not directly tactically helping


What I want to see is this AAR get to 1943 where the Soviet Morale should be better. When I see German vs Soviet air battles at high message levels I see a lot of "4 planes from group XYZ turnaround" That means they use miles and fuel, are subject to damage, and do nothing to contribute I think this accounts for the risk of attacking German Airbases in 1941 - mid 1942

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

German casualties are never remotely close to what was experienced historically in weeks 1-24.

Everything M60 brought up is true. I emphasize the sentence above for good measure.

Statistics N=2:

Baseline for discussion "Turns 1 - 25"

According to Wikipedia (and references within)

German causalities: Killed 186,542 Soviet 586,952

German AFV's Lost: 2,735 Soviet: 20,500 AFV's


2x3 Casualties (+1 Soviet)


German Causulies Killed: 144,998 Soviet 624,370

German AVF's Lost: 2,493 Soviet 13,978


8MP Casaulties:(no +1 attack)


German Killed 132,014 Soviet 493,037

AFV's Lost 2,257 Soviet 14,443


Using the logic in multiple AAR's and forums .. it looks like the Soviets are superman <smile>

This is a game not a similation. Two major battles where the German's got their clock cleaned in the intial moments of Operation Barbarossa are not going to happen because of the combat engine. (Battle of Brody for example). Otherwise at least these two games produced reasonable results to "historcal" (besides the superman Soviet tanks) turns 1-25.

This is just a thought .. but I might propose this constant balance discussion in every AAR is ruining the game. Instead of games compleating players are rationalizing "the game is borked" then one could say that has an effect on prospective buyers of the game who will wait unit the game is "balanced"

What I am most interested in this AAR is if M60 applies any lessons learned from the 8MP game for Soviet air, and does it make a difference. Ok back into lurking mode.

Great..... (rolls eyes), two games referenced are team games played by new or inexperienced players(I mean no disrespect here but not exactly what M60 referenced in what he wrote)

Secondly, if, "This is a game not a simulation" as you wrote then why in the world did you go through the whole post in the first place? Wait, I don't want to know because it was a fit for your agenda.

Third, and this is the big one, if M60 wants to discuss anything in his AAR he is free to do so no matter WTH it is. M60 has been playing this game from the opening stages. You can look up his AAR's from years ago and read them. When M60 posts observations about the progress this game has gone in it would behoove us to listen since they are more than likely correct. I personally value M60's thoughts & these writing should not be so easily dismissed as you are trying to do so in this post. I think doing this is "borking" M60 when posting items of this nature.

One day you will wake up from your drug induced German bias. I hope......

[M60A3TTS]

@HLYA. Everyone is entitled to their opinions here. No personal attacks please.

The game is a simulation at some level. That is my opinion.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
I have not seen too many games go into 1943, but I might propose that the Soviet Air force is ill designed to cover the tactical battlespace.

If the Soviet puts Fighter ranges over the tactical battlespace:


1. German can use recon to find the longest range the fighters will react

2. The German then does "fighter sweeps" forcing the Soviet to fly to the longest ranges with a positive EV (Expected Value) in kills.

Then 3 …


3a. Soviet player places airbases in the Tactical battlespace .. Stukas smash airfields no fighters left

Interesting. So then you believe the current game version that increases the AA support units does not impact such a game plan?

[M60A3TTS]

This will be seen later in a larger pic. Here is one example where concentrated AA looks to be having an impact in this version.

[SparkleyTits]

Yeah I would like to see a bit more Axis manpower losses in 41 and a lot more Axis AFV losses after 41

In current version because of how morale works it is for all intents and purposes an automatic affair to have a very dominant Axis force in 42 bar any Axis mishaps
I think with a bit more degredation in Axis manpower it could alleviate that and bring in more choices/plans/clashing for both sides

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

This will be seen later in a larger pic. Here is one example where concentrated AA looks to be having an impact in this version.

Well any planes flying a mission that way will be swiftly sent back to their airbase before firing a bloody shot!

[chaos45]

The big issue is I'm pretty sure AA will be reduced/nerfed slightly in the next patch. As some OOB inflation happened to the soviet AA units and they will be getting a reduction is my understanding. As well Im pretty sure both sides will suffer an overall reduction in effectiveness of AA fire.

So not sure relying on a tactic sure to be nerfed in the next patch is all that great.

[M60A3TTS]

Don't know, I hadn't heard that. I do know that with a starting German air morale of 90 and a Soviet air morale of 50, it's difficult enough.

[M60A3TTS]

Moscow was surrounded on turn 12 with over 400,000 trapped. Based on the OOB, there would have been more Germans than Soviets after that was cleaned up.










Marauder is free to post in the thread now. I may have comments later, but nothing further for the moment.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

What are you final thoughts about the game at the moment M60? What could you have done differently?

[chaos45]

Interested to hear opinions...first week of SEP and germans have enough fuel to completely encircle Moscow....seems abit much. Despite what many are saying that German supply to is to restricted.

[MarauderPL]

I would like to thank M60 for a great game, it was very fun to play. I'll post some comments in the coming days, hopefully when I find the resilience to type some of my strategic ideas behind this incarnation of Barbarossa.

As to the fuel, I've done 2 HQBU's on the northern pincer last turn - these 2 PzCorps had about 40-45 MP, one remaining PzCorp had about 25-35, but was partially over the Volga/Lama river. The southern pincer could barely get over the Moskva river. The encirclement was mostly possible due to low CV values of Soviet units in the area.

[SparkleyTits]

Congrats

[STEF78]

Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ?????

Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys.

Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating...

Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ?????

Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys.

Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating...

Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing.

Don't know how much longer the community is going to kid themselves that the status quo is good. You almost have to be a miracle worker to survive 41.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ?????

Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys.

Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating...

Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing.

Congrats both of you.

Stephane you would have taken moscow in september 1941 two if i did not got really lucky by having the soviet partisans blowing up the railway for one month....

[MarauderPL]

Just to start, I came to this game with a few assumptions. First, I'm an average tactician and will do a lot of subprime unit micro - and that has been basically confirmed, M60 even posted a screen with all the "Held" results

Second, to overcome this deficiency, I need to step up with the operational and strategy layer. I asked myself what was the most dangerous and irritating operational situation to deal with when I was playing the Soviet side. The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence.

On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions.

Last but not least, the air game. I intended to skip it completely, but after hearing M60 wants to put it as a central point of his AAR I tried to play along. Unfortunately, after few turns I came back to my original idea The fatigue bug in national reserve makes the Kabuki dance ineffective but still time-consuming. The amount of AA and its effectiveness makes airfield bombing extremely dangerous. So in my hands the Luftwaffe got degraded entirely to combat support role. As long as I was able to bomb a given hex twice and fly ground support in the important battles I was happy with the airgame. From what I observed from my point of view, M60 finally also didn't engage in air war much, I was usually seeing a couple of bombing raids here and there.

How the game developed? Well, looking at the result it went just fantastic I have the screenshots at home so will not post them right now, but on various occasions the Soviets played right into my plan, abandoning very good defensive terrain/positions and letting me widen the front considerably. My plan for operation Typhoon (assaulting Moscow) was to use a wide north encirclement, at the same time threatening thrust further north to the Finnish border and cutting off Leningrad area. Capturing cities like Torzhok and Vyshny Volochek was key to my plan. You've seen the result. I'll try to explain it more on some examples later.

Hopefully it is more or less understandable, but I'm more than happy to further discuss any details, concepts etc. (here or in discord or by PM)
Sorry for the long post - and no potato

[Telemecus]

Congrats to both and thanks for the AAR. My big regret at not seeing this go on longer was I was hoping to see more on the focus on the air war. I hope M60A3TTS can give us more of their insights in the next one.

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL
The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence.

On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions.

I have to say I think this is the way to go. Having learned lesson 101 as Axis to do encirclements, the next stage I think is to somehow unlearn the lesson. But I would also argue this is just setting up the bigger encirclements of a future turn.

You both deserve credit for a game with thought and ideas put into action.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Congrats to both and thanks for the AAR. My big regret at not seeing this go on longer was I was hoping to see more on the focus on the air war. I hope M60A3TTS can give us more of their insights in the next one.

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL
The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence.

On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions.

I have to say I think this is the way to go. Having learned lesson 101 as Axis to do encirclements, the next stage I think is to somehow unlearn the lesson. But I would also argue this is just setting up the bigger encirclements of a future turn.

You both deserve credit for a game with thought and ideas put into action.

What "if" the Soviets don't retreat?