The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021

[ernieschwitz]

For example, the "Cards" that VR Designs introduced into the DCS series would work great for a Bombing the Reich II game -- because you could then play the "Glue Factory Bombed!" card.

Slight correction: The "Cards" that VR Designs introduced, were first introduced in Advanced Tactics. Frankly I am not surprised that there is this oversight. Advanced Tactics, is a criminally overlooked game, in general. The editor in it allows for many different scenarios (even campaigns) that can look very similar to DC.

[pkpowers]

Also overlooked are Frank Hunters games ; Campaigns on the Danube - Guns of August - Piercing Fortress Europa

[Rosseau]

What a great discussion. And civil, no less. The comments, the screenshots, the history of digital wargames...as well as the theories and the possible explanations.

No wonder this is the only forum I check every day.

Sincerely,

Your humble OP [;)]
[/i]
And yes, back OT, Frank Hunter seemed to be a lone wolf developer too, but made a significant contribution to the genre.

[Zovs]

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.

[gamer78]

I think the problem is not about design about previous games. There is 1000+ hours or lifetime needed to play these very good games. Steam has previously 2 TL fixed for a Dollar. Dollar now nearly 10 Turkish Lira. If Wargames have niche market "somehow 1 man show" than should look for other markets with better pricing. World is 8 billion people. And have many other conflicts than CW or WW'2 in the past.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: boudi

God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.

So?

[gamer78]

It reminds me during dictator Mobarak times when I was in Egypt 20 years ago.. Shape of Ankh resemble as a Christian symbol. But not about it about more about ancient Egypt. People seems to confuse symbols.

[ernieschwitz]

Way to derail a good discussion. (Both of you)

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Way to derail a good discussion. (Both of you)

So? Don't you like it?

[Zovs]

Well it lasted 3 pages 😐

And another thread bites the dust

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well it lasted 3 pages 😐

And another thread bites the dust

Why would this thread "bite the dust?"

[Rosseau]

The thread (potentially) bites the dust because someone brings up a discussion about SS symbols when everyone else is concentrating on the state-of-the-art of digital wargames. I think the SS topic deserves its own thread. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.

Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...[:)]

[Big Ivan]

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

The thread (potentially) bites the dust because someone brings up a discussion about SS symbols when everyone else is concentrating on the state-of-the-art of digital wargames. I think the SS topic deserves its own thread. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.

Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...[:)]

I was not thinking that but it makes sense!

Its funny, I started playing board games in the early 70's and in the late 90's I moved on to Computer (Digital) wargames. One of the biggest reasons for me was convenience and I didn't need to have huge tables to enjoy my games!

I remember we had 2-3 ping-pong tables to setup GDW's Fire In The East. Today with Grigsby's game on the eastern from I have it on my computer screen and life is good!![;)]

[altipueri]

Yes, the ping pong tables and more..

I played games in the late 60s with Bish Iwaszko - inventor of several sets of rules - including one where we used a logarithmic scale so artillery could be used with the concatenation of distance.

Here's an article and an AAR :

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/s ... %20Iwaszko


Curiously the PC game that most reminded me of those days was Sudden Strike which was an RTS - but our rules were more like a reference library with looking up armour penetration tables and armour thickness at X degrees.

Thank you to the PC game developers.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
...

So? Don't you like it?

well it doesn't exactly add to what is an interesting thread does it - and there is a danger that people respond to something that really is unneeded?

my small take. I think there is more innovation than some do in this thread. Some of it is incremental in that its feasible to assume greater computing power available, some I think is the baseline standard being raised. I know how much effort Matrix puts into the game UIs these days (and the documentation), so I can't think of any recent games where the UI is a fundamental struggle just to do something simple (there are UIs I like less or more but that is both a value judgement and how much I am prepared to work on the game).

Matrix have 3 games I know of that are relatively straight ports of the original board game.WW1gold, WIF and EIA. The first remains probably the definitive computer rendition of WW1 at a strategic level but it is actually unplayable - some is poor UI, but mostly its that a set of steps that made perfect sense using a map and counters and are actually incredibly convuluted when coded. The FoG2 series are probably the best example of how a board game needs to adapted for PC play?

There are plenty of really innovative game designs out there. AGEOD's Empires manages to capture the dynamics of state rise, ossification and collapse in a single core concept, easy to grasp but like entropy a bit harder to avoid. All in all, I agree with the post above

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

...

I've just finished a set of MP games using the Flashpoint Red Storm game which 8 years post release remains innovative. If I really want to experience the frustrations of pre-telegraph command and control a quick trip to the Danube with Frank Hunter's CoD will scratch that itch.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: boudi
God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.

Sending this thread off-track with a comment that assumes bad faith is never a constructive action. If you have concerns, the better way to handle it would be to ask "Why did you choose that avatar?" in a PM or a separate thread.

Outside of a historical wargame forum, a SS avatar would clearly be a very questionable choice. Even within historical wargaming, we don't glorify the SS and in fact understand their atrocities more than most due to our study of history. Of the "core" SS divisions, it's hard to think of a single one that wasn't in some way implicated in atrocities. Of course, there were also other divisions that were later on put into the SS organizationally for different reasons, including that they were of non-German composition and thus less politically reliable, many of which had very different records and reasons for fighting than the "core" SS.
For example, the Estonian SS division. However, like any number of "elite" units throughout history, they also had a role on the battlefield and in many cases it was a key role.

Strictly from a wargaming and battlefield perspective let's focus on the "core" SS. They were interesting units that tended to receive better equipment and often unique equipment and had fanatical fighting morale. Many of the key battles of WW2, whether on the Western or Eastern front, involved the SS in a battlefield role. Wargamers are typically able to compartmentalize history in order to study a battle and when we fight a battle, the units that are unusual in some way tend to stand out. I would personally be repelled by someone choosing an avatar of a unit like the Dirlewanger Brigade that has no real wargaming role but is infamous for its atrocities, but I can understand an wargamer's interest in something like the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion or someone like Michael Wittmann, though if I had to choose a German tank ace, I'd personally prefer Kurt Knispel or Otto Carius.

In any case, which avatar caused you concern? Please let me know via PM rather than further derailing this thread.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: boudi

God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.

So?

One of the many pre-Nazi uses of the Swastika (this one in Scouting) which was never an offensive symbol until a fascist dictator used it to signify a movement that slaughtered millions in a crazed genocide. To be clear, the swastika is not banned here in historical context, but given its history in WW2 it should always be shown with context and care and a basic level of decency/understanding for those many millions who were murdered by the Nazis.

Instead of responding to a form of concern trolling with swastika trolling knowing that it's likely to offend without context and escalate this from a constructive discussion to a locked thread, consider instead offering polite discussion and education.

I'd like to see more good sense shown here as it was a thread that was of value. I'll ask both of you that if you have any further concerns about avatars or such to please contact me via PMs.

Regards,

- Erik

[RangerJoe]

The thanks badge from the British Boy Scouting organization should not be offensive to most people but who knows?

https://www.worldscoutingmuseum.org/swastikas.shtml

Use this search term for more results including a couple of pdfs:

"A guide to the Medals and Awards of The Scout Association"

There were also other uses of the Swastica by the Boy Scouts but technically what was pictured is a fylfot which has been used in heraldry among other uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot

These should not be mistaken for the Hakenkreuz which is what someone else used.

[Zovs]

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...[:)]

Well to be in the context of fantastic I mean we have so many games available for just about any era, conflict and scope (tactical, operational, strategic).

Granted most of my 'favorites' were built or constructed in the 90's, but all are or have been updated in 2020-2021.

For example all the JTS games get a facelift and update at one point.

The Shrapnel's Steel Panthers series is the only Steel Panthers versions that have been updated and upgraded for over 22 years.

And lastly the WitE2 is a tremendous update over WitE 1.

As far as 'innovation' I really do like the simo-turn (WEGO I think its called) structure of both the Flashpoint Campaign Series and the Desert War Series (looking forward to the Stalingrad version there).

So that is essentially what I meant by fantastic.

To me it's kind of like when I lived through the late 70's when SPI was in its heyday as a young lad.

Second Front from Microprose will have some innovations in it (contrary to those calling it an ASL clone, its far from that at all). It has some features for tactical games that I think are innovated and yet to be seen.

I have never played that Naval/Air game Command (mainly cause I am not a naval/air only folk), but that seems pretty innovative.

[cristianwj]

It's a little off topic.

In my memory, the first digital wargame I have played was East Front by John Tiller.
Before that I have played several strategy games made by Japanese companies about Chinese history of Three Kindom era.
By the way, Close combat , War in Russia and Panzer General were legend at that time.
Which make me glad is after nearly 20 years, WITE2, CMO and other digital wargames make a great progress, not only user interface but also playability.
I think Decisive Campaign Ardennes Offensive make these series to a high point in last 5 years.

It's understandable most wargame players missed the good old time. I also do.
But put the point of view from now to the future, I think wargames might be more open for all users. Easier to get familar with, and much better internet or cloud server assistant.
And the AI will be develop to a new stage in next few years and make games more like play with a real people.