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arethusa
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Post by arethusa »

Capt. Pixel wrote: I think, at least on the infantry issue, that the RL conditions would make anybody in the wrong-shaped helmet a target.
The wrong shaped helmet means an enemy yes but will not necessarily let you know what kind of enemy.

From any distance farther than pistol shot, a Ranger would look the same as any other American GI. For that matter, the Canucks and the Brits wore almost identical uniforms and any Poles, Free French or other nationalities I've seen used the same uniforms as the Brits after their own countries fell to the Reich and they escaped to England. My guess is that they were issued British uniforms on arrival since their own uniforms weren't available any longer. The only difference would be in the shoulder flashes.

The German army seemed to be different in that the collar insignia for SS and Wermacht was more discernable but even then, I doubt if you could tell at more than say 50 metres, particularly if the unit had been in deployment for a period of time and the uniform was dirty.

Some elite units had distinctive uniforms, like the FJ mottled cammo pattern but in a many cases, even with the Germans, after a unit had been in the field for a while the men tended to wear a variety of different bits and pieces of whatever they could pick up that didn't look like the enemy but would keep them warm and perhaps hidden.
Capt. Pixel wrote:Once you've driven your enemy into the mud, behind logs, etc. your ability to ID their insignia is reduced. And, at the point that you're exchanging fire, what rank or service branch your shooting at becomes of lesser concern. This kind of specific information would more likely come to light during mop-up. "Wow, Jeb! We greased an SS squad"
Quite true. During the firefight, I think the muzzle flashes would hold my attention far more than the shoulder insignia. And the mop-up not only occurs once you occupy the exact same ground where you got at least one of the enemy, but if the battle is still raging, are you going to take the time to inspect the bodies, their insignia and perhaps their dogtags or paybooks to find out who they actually are? :rolleyes:

(That being said, after the battle is over and there is time, it's a wonder what they could come up with. My father told me that after his capture, he only gave them the standard 'name, rank and SN'. They seemed to be satisfied with that for about a week when he was called into the Gestapo leader's office for his daily interrogation. He started to repeat the same answers when the officer told him to "quit playing games" and proceeded to tell my father what his parent's names were, where they lived and what my grandfather did for a living. :eek: Where my father was born and where he went to school, even though he was born in a different country on a different continent from where he went to school. They even knew his class standing. He was amazed at what they knew but apparently when that didn't work to make him talk, he was handed over to the Luftwaffe and sent off to POW camp for the duration. :( They certainly could dig up information once they had the time.)
Capt. Pixel wrote: As for equipment, there are definitely distinctive profiles presented by different vehicles. But, as stated earlier, many features are not readily discernable just by looking. The T34 maintains it's external profile until up-gunning to the 85mm. Yet there are a number of non-visible improvements in the series. {eg. Fire Control, Armor} The same is true for the US, GE and UK vehicles. (In the case of the UK, there were so many different styles, the Germans probably couldn't keep up anyway. "WTF is that tank??" :D )
Quite true again. I've seen all kinds of different Shermans and even when you do see one clearly, they were hidden by all kinds of sandbags and extra pieces of tread hanging off the sides in an attempt to give them a little bit more protection. Even though the sand was intended to augment the thin armour (sorry Jess :D ), it must have made it harder to recognize. The different types of tanks would be noticable but less likely the different marks of that type.

German tanks often had a variety of different bits of armoured skirts, ziggurat (sp) antimagnetic coating and so on that would also serve to hide the true identity. Just like the assorted bits of uniform that a unit in the field tends to collect, my guess is that the tankers of all armies tended to grab any bits and pieces of equipment that could prove useful.

Then again, it also seems to be common practice to add bits of the local flora to the tank to help hide it among the foliage. Once the AFV was spotted, even though you knew where it was, you still might not have been able to figure out what it was.
Capt. Pixel wrote: It is nice that this game has so much flexibility so as to allow one to modify features, such as these, to suit individual perspectives. :cool:
For sure. One thing that I've seen in some of the pre-made scenarios is individual names for the tanks. Like "Holy Roller" or "Thunderer" on actual Shermans that I've seen in parks or "Greif" that was apparently the name on the side of Rommel's personal HT in N. Africa.
"Good military intelligence is worth at least as much as an extra regiment."
FriendlyFire
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Post by FriendlyFire »

Originally Posted by Frank W. - Yesterday at 0815 PM 01 Nov 03

welcome !


is F-city = frankfurt ?
Image Hi Image,

yes... Frankfurt/Main. (For all: Main = the dirty river, which flows through this city Image)

Siegen in Westfalen? Image

Greets
Frank W.
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Post by Frank W. »

FriendlyFire wrote: Siegen in Westfalen? Image
Greets
yep. "provinz voll leben" *cough*

perhaps we can play a PBM game sometime ?

is the main really that dirty ?

frank
Vathailos
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Post by Vathailos »

Capt. Pixel wrote:I discussed this issue with a regular opponent. He told me that he didn't care what I did with my unit's names.

"If it has your flag on it. I'm gonna kill it!" That's pretty straight forward. :D

He recently renamed his IT Flamthrowers "Poopengassen", "Flingerflamers", and "K9 Troops".

He's right though, if it's got his flag on it - I still shoot to kill. :cool:

My major issue with IDs still remains the distinctions made in platoon units such as the UK infantry squads. I fail to see how the enemy can determine which fellows are the Platoon HQ as opposed to any other regular tommy. Do they wear special khaki shorts and all smoke pipes (or play the pipes?) I regularly rename units such as these to match the other IDs in the platoon. Without reservation, excuses or apologies. :cool:
**drags out dead horse** **grabs mallet**

Hi there CPT :)

Wanted to address this point and bring up one point that I think still remains unclear.

I play by the same general rules that you do, I believe. Namely, that if it's the enemy's, it's a target.

However, consider a circumstance where shots are limited (in this particular battle, one SF squad in a cluster of 4-5 "trucks" and a couple of rocket launchers). Now, assume they'd had time to observe, which they had. It doesn't matter if the trucks all looked the same, the ones that the rocket launcher crews were unloading ammo from would have been my targets. Unfortunately, the ammo loading procedures are not observable in SP. Therefore, they remained "unknown".

I think my main point bears repeating. I don't mind "subterfuge" or "psy-ops" or whatever you call it by re-naming units, as long as it's agreed upon by both sides as a pre-condition to battle (like mines, arty limits, etc.).

Otherwise (and if you can factually pick this apart/disagree with the following, please do so, no offense taken), by renaming your units when the enemy hasn't renamed his, you have just automatically given yourself an advantage that his troops don't have. That of "unerring ID-ability". Your troops will ID his (because that's the default game mechanic) with 100% accuracy. If you see a Pz IIIe, it is indeed a Pz IIIe. His T-34 is a T-34, not a T-34/85. However, his units now can't ID yours with 100% accuracy.

We can get down into the weeds about historical tendancies to mis-ID, difficulty in ID-ing, etc. I agree that it would add to realisim to do this for all those reasons. But the fact remains that if you rename your units unbeknownst to your opponent, and he doesn't rename his, then you've unilaterally given yourself an advantage over your opponent (unerring ID-ability). That is what I contend is wrong. One player should not (because it's not addressed/mentioned specifically beforehand, whatever) take it upon himself to grant himself any advantage over his opponent, regardless of the justification, without agreeing beforehand. In this case, then it's just another level of detail (misinformation) that both sides are practicing. And as I've said, I don't disagree with the practice if both sides at least are aware that their opponent may be exercising this option.

IMO, it's just gamesmanship to do it unilaterally. I don't think it's proper to give myself an advantage. That's akin to saying "we didn't talk specifically about a limit on infiltrators or pre-laid mines, so I'm going to do both because I can have an historical justification for such". It, again IMO, is a separate issue from force composition or anything else only because of the way in which you affect the change. One example I could liken it to (were it possible in to do so, if the preferences were not locked for example), to change the toughness of AFVs, or the effectiveness of artillery after your opponent's purchase. I know you won't see it as this radical, but I point it out because it's changing an assumed equality, that of unerring ID-ability. While not nearly as devistating as altering troop toughness, etc. it is an advantage if done unilaterally, and can confuse/disadvantage newer players.
Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov »

The man speaks the truth.
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

I think you should be able to rename anything you want as long as it isn't patently incorrect (the proof will be in its sound effect and you should be able to defend your new naming if challenged). However, you should warn your opponent that you intend to do so and thus grant him the same advantage you intend to avail yourself of. Otherwise you are just asking to have an annoyed opponent when he figures out what you've done. (Vath stated this point far better than I could have (had I read his post before I wrote this).)

Personally, I don't rename units but I'm not opposed to its use. As was stated before, right-clicking reveals much. If I found someone renaming without telling me about it during the setup, I'd probably take it as a compliment that they thought they needed to use such tactics to beat me.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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VikingNo2
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Post by VikingNo2 »

Damm RB I was hoping that the Sniper that killed my Tiger was really a renamed BFG2000 :rolleyes:

My nightmare continues :mad:
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K62_
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Post by K62_ »

Buzzard45 wrote: I think it appropriate that we add this to "Gary's Rules of Engagement". I try to play all my games under these rules and it has saved un-countable discussions and hard feelings.
Where can I find these "rules of engagement"? I did a forum search but it returned nothing :(
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

VikingNo2 wrote:Damm RB I was hoping that the Sniper that killed my Tiger was really a renamed BFG2000 :rolleyes:

My nightmare continues :mad:
LOL

Nope, that was one brave soldier that did that. hehehe
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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mogami
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renaming units

Post by mogami »

Hi, I always rename units when I'm setting them up. But I don't call a T-34 a T-34/85 I rename my A0 HQ 'Mogami"
My company HQ squads "A CO HQ" , MG's and Mortars "A co MG#1" or "A co Mortar #1" (so my FO's know which weapon they can call)
I've never had anyone complain. (But I don't think this hurts them any because the units are in fact just what I name them.)
I can tell a lot about a enemy unit just from right clicking it. And if it fires....
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VikingNo2
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Post by VikingNo2 »

I agree with most of Gary's rules of engagement as well. Except I will target smoke from my opponents arty ;)
arethusa
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Post by arethusa »

VikingNo2 wrote:I agree with most of Gary's rules of engagement as well. Except I will target smoke from my opponents arty ;)
From my RL experience in an artillery battery, I'm completely with you on targetting the smoke from enemy arty, V2. It's something our FO's were trained to do.

Think of it this way. You're in your foxhole and enemy arty is falling all around you. You know the direction it's coming from and you know also that you have no arty in that direction. Your FO see's smoke (and hears the gunfire) off in the direction and within the range of the calibre that's coming down on you.

Would you:
a) send a scout out to see what it is? (Keep in mind there's a good chance of enemy troops between where you are and where the smoke is. Plus the smoke could be several miles away (=at least an hour of time just walking) and the barrage is now!)

or b) call for your own counterbattery fire.

I know what I'd do in that circumstance. :D :rolleyes:

There's nothing odd about seeing the smoke for a lot longer distance than you can see the actual units. The topography of much of Europe has a lot in common with N. Michigan, NY, Vermont, Que., Ont. etc in that there are lots of small hills and valleys from which you can often see for miles and miles into the distance. In all those places, I've often seen dust from construction sites long before I see the site itself.
"Good military intelligence is worth at least as much as an extra regiment."
Procrustes
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Post by Procrustes »

Mogami wrote:Hi, I always rename units when I'm setting them up. But I don't call a T-34 a T-34/85 I rename my A0 HQ 'Mogami"
My company HQ squads "A CO HQ" , MG's and Mortars "A co MG#1" or "A co Mortar #1" (so my FO's know which weapon they can call)
I've never had anyone complain. (But I don't think this hurts them any because the units are in fact just what I name them.)
I can tell a lot about a enemy unit just from right clicking it. And if it fires....

Hi!

I got the crap shot out of me by a MOGAMI Dive Bomber in one of the Watchtower battles (1st Matanikau?)! Darned thing shattered a platoon of marines on the first pass, then shot the hell out of a GMC a couple of turns later. Flew right over a 37mm flak gun, which jammed before even getting a shot off. It was a fun game!

(When the thing first appeared I thought - "What an odd name - wonder if that guy from Matrix took his handle from a dive bomber...." :D )

P.
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Buzzard45
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Post by Buzzard45 »

K62 wrote:Where can I find these "rules of engagement"? I did a forum search but it returned nothing :(


You can find it under Opponents wanted PBEM FORMS as an attachment OR I think its page 17 of the 2003 World cup.
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mogami
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Dive Bomber

Post by mogami »

Procrustes wrote:Hi!

I got the crap shot out of me by a MOGAMI Dive Bomber in one of the Watchtower battles (1st Matanikau?)! Darned thing shattered a platoon of marines on the first pass, then shot the hell out of a GMC a couple of turns later. Flew right over a 37mm flak gun, which jammed before even getting a shot off. It was a fun game!

(When the thing first appeared I thought - "What an odd name - wonder if that guy from Matrix took his handle from a dive bomber...." :D )

P.
Hi, In the lower right hand corner of the map you can see who designed a scenario. I thought I used a Zero (A6M) and not a divebomber.
Glad you had fun. If I recall correctly I tried to get 3 battles going on at one time in scattered locations on the map.
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

A couple years ago I had immobilized an opponent's StuG (it was facing away from my units) but ran out of shots before I could finish it off. When I got the turn back the StuG's name was now 'I am dead'. :D
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Procrustes
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Post by Procrustes »

Mogami wrote:Hi, In the lower right hand corner of the map you can see who designed a scenario. I thought I used a Zero (A6M) and not a divebomber.
Glad you had fun. If I recall correctly I tried to get 3 battles going on at one time in scattered locations on the map.

Yup, I saw your name and realized you were one of the designers - it was just for a moment I was completly confused by the unit name. I'm glad you did it - was a good giggle and a nice personal touch.

It was a fun battle. It was set up as a three-prong attack by the US, but with a weakened right flank that was stormed by the Japanese - made me scramble a bit. Also, the Japanese in the center retreated when I first met them and I ended up wasting some arty trying to assault empty hexes - was a pretty slick move by the AI. Don't have the game with me but don't think it was a Zero unless they can carry a bomb load. (There were Zero's in previous scenarios in the MC.)

Best,
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