Does anyone else think the USA CV pilots are over skilled for 1941?

[TulliusDetritus]

I see. Thank you, Meng Ciao.

[Jon_Hal]

Hi again everyone. Enjoyable thread. but in an effort to keep this from going round and round I thought I would quote some people far more knowledgable then me.

Why is this counted as US victory?

Because Japanese invasion Admiral lost his nerve and Port Moresby convoy turned around (which was 100% unnecessary).

The only way Coral Sea battle can be counted as USA victory sf fact that both Japanese Carriers were unable to participate in Midway battle (due to Japanese problem with pilot training resulting in pilot shortage).

And even such Midway was one _BIG_ lucky thing for USN.

From the Book "Zero"

Tacitacally, therefore, we considered the Coral Seab battle as victorious for our forces. Future events proved this evaluation to be faulty for, as stratigic moves would clearly reveal, the Coral Sea battle proved a serious Japanese setback.

This was written by Masatake Okumiya, a air staff officer present at most of the carrier battles in the pacific. If the US considered it a victory and the Japanese a "serious setback" I'd rather not argue with them Seriously thouhg no battle is in a vaccum. coral Sea set the stage for the US victory at Midway.

Fine and dandy. the Thatch weave was a defensive tactic that worked and when first used the Wildcat's were on an offensive mission. The Wildcat didn't permit many offensive options besides Shoot and Scoot.

What I meant was that "Thach weave" was devised to save lives of USN fighter pilots when attacked by Zero fighters - it was not tactics meant to destroy the Japanese Zero fighters.

Agreed - However it was a defensive tactic that resulted in Japanese Zeros being shot down.

Again, against USN Carrier pilots this claim can't be backed. Vastly superior pilots in vastly superior planes should have wiped out the USN Navy pilots they encountered.. they didn't. why is that?

Japanese did great in all air battles vs. USN up until Midway (CV Yorktown was sunk after all with just handful of planes) and even after that in Solomon carrier battles.

What Japanese were missing were additional excellent pilots that needed to replace their lost comrades...

I would disagree witht that statement. The Japanese did great against the USN up until Midway. There was only one other battle between USN carrier pilots and Japanese Carrier pilots. At Coral Sea. Remember the scope of this thread was US Carrier Pilots. According to John Lundstrom's research the USN to IJN ration was 14 Zeros shot down to 10 Wildcat losses for the total two Carrier battles Midway and Coral Sea. Where does the Statement the "Japanese did Great" come from?


I think there is a myth that the only way the US beat Japan was because either we were "Lucky" or outnumbered them with state of the art aircraft. Midway's luck was the result of a lot of hard work done in the intelligence area to get the US forces there in time to bushwack the Japanese. Any major battle can hinge on one of a million slightly different outcomes that you could chalk up to luck? Sure was lucky for the Japanese that the Fuel lines cuaght fire on the LEx in Coral Sea or else their might have been four carriers at midway. IT was "lucky" for the Japanese that none of the TBD's connected with a torpedo just as it was
"unlucky" for them to be plastered by the SBDs.
The outcome was already decided in the Allies favor well before Corsairs, Hellcats and Helldivers swarmed the skies. Men flying Wildcats, P-40s and P-39s manged to beat the Japanese air force and break it's back over Gaudalcanal, Coral Sea and Midway. pretty impressive legacy to those fighting men, don't you think?

Again thanks for an enjoyable thread.

Regards, Jon

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: Jon_Hal

Hi again everyone. Enjoyable thread. but in an effort to keep this from going round and round I thought I would quote some people far more knowledgable then me.

Why is this counted as US victory?

Because Japanese invasion Admiral lost his nerve and Port Moresby convoy turned around (which was 100% unnecessary).

The only way Coral Sea battle can be counted as USA victory sf fact that both Japanese Carriers were unable to participate in Midway battle (due to Japanese problem with pilot training resulting in pilot shortage).

And even such Midway was one _BIG_ lucky thing for USN.

From the Book "Zero"

Tacitacally, therefore, we considered the Coral Seab battle as victorious for our forces. Future events proved this evaluation to be faulty for, as stratigic moves would clearly reveal, the Coral Sea battle proved a serious Japanese setback.

This was written by Masatake Okumiya, a air staff officer present at most of the carrier battles in the pacific. If the US considered it a victory and the Japanese a "serious setback" I'd rather not argue with them Seriously thouhg no battle is in a vaccum. coral Sea set the stage for the US victory at Midway.

Fine and dandy. the Thatch weave was a defensive tactic that worked and when first used the Wildcat's were on an offensive mission. The Wildcat didn't permit many offensive options besides Shoot and Scoot.

What I meant was that "Thach weave" was devised to save lives of USN fighter pilots when attacked by Zero fighters - it was not tactics meant to destroy the Japanese Zero fighters.

Agreed - However it was a defensive tactic that resulted in Japanese Zeros being shot down.

Again, against USN Carrier pilots this claim can't be backed. Vastly superior pilots in vastly superior planes should have wiped out the USN Navy pilots they encountered.. they didn't. why is that?

Japanese did great in all air battles vs. USN up until Midway (CV Yorktown was sunk after all with just handful of planes) and even after that in Solomon carrier battles.

What Japanese were missing were additional excellent pilots that needed to replace their lost comrades...

I would disagree witht that statement. The Japanese did great against the USN up until Midway. There was only one other battle between USN carrier pilots and Japanese Carrier pilots. At Coral Sea. Remember the scope of this thread was US Carrier Pilots. According to John Lundstrom's research the USN to IJN ration was 14 Zeros shot down to 10 Wildcat losses for the total two Carrier battles Midway and Coral Sea. Where does the Statement the "Japanese did Great" come from?

Eastern Solomons? Where two Jap carriers sank the Hornet and put the Enterprise out of action?

But you're quite right. The USN did start making a come back on its own well before the new aircraft types and ships showed up.

[tsimmonds]

Eastern Solomons? Where two Jap carriers sank the Hornet and put the Enterprise out of action?

Hornet was sunk at Santa Cruz by strikes from Zuikaku, Shokaku and Junyo. Zuiho was also there, but served only to soak up ordnance.

[Jon_Hal]

Eastern Solomons? Where two Jap carriers sank the Hornet and put the Enterprise out of action?

But you're quite right. The USN did start making a come back on its own well before the new aircraft types and ships showed up.

Eastern Solomons was the Enterprise and Saratoga against the Sho, Zui and Ryujo. THe Ryujo was lost to the Damaged Enterprise

the Battle of Santa Cruz. The Japanese had 4 carriers to the Enterprise and Hornet the USN lost a larger carrier but it turned back a large Japanese surface force headed for the 'canal when it could have turned the tide there.

regards, Jon

[tigercub]

The P40 series also received a sequence of upgrades within variant. Early P40Es lacked a bit in high altitude performance but these problems were solved. It was never as good as the best Allied fighters, but by the end of the war the P40N for example was better than the Me109, the Zero, or the Tony hands down.
mdiehl you were saying that the P40-n was better than ME109 you have got ta be kidding making foolish statments like that you lose all you credit in a few words.
The P 40 was never a patch on the Me 109 /fighter vers anytime!!
So you know the germany inployed fighter and bomber attack vers after 42 of the ME109 {The Me109 shot down more planes than any other plane in history!}
i could go on but i have the time...

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Also being in combat is something that can only help

I fundamentally disagree. When you look at Coral Sea you can see some fine examples of veteran Japanese pilots losing their lives because they learned the wrong lesson in China. I can name three wrong lessons they learned as they died. 1. Don't cross ahead of an F4F within range, even at a high deflection angle, because unlike Chinese pilots, USN pilots can and routinely do kill you with a snap shot. 2. Don't engage an F4F in a head to head attack because the F4F can take what you can dish out, but the A6M can't take what the F4F can dish out. 3. Under the right circumstances, an F4F can and will turn with you or even ahead of you and kill you.

You can only see what soldiers are made of when someone is shooting at them and trying to kill them.

"You can only see what soldiers are made of" is hyperbole. There's no there there. In ground combat, veterans can crack and run like hell. Rookies can stand and fight. Unit morale and cohesion can be there, go away, and return. Training can and does make a huge difference even in the intangible things like morale, initiative, espirit de corps. Like other false "common sense" the "experience trumps all" perspective is just crap and demonstratably so in numerous circumstances. Consider the 20th Me. In one prior combat (Fredericksburg) their only mission was to advance across an open ground, be shot and die. Not much learning there since everybody knew that frontal assaulting a fortified position sporting artillery was suicide. In their second battle (Gettysburg Day 2 L. ROund Top) they executed a series of complex maneuvers in combat that most units never used in combat. They'd never used them in combat before. These included a doubling of the interval under fire, followed by refusing the left flank, followed by a bayonet charge that began with a left forward wheel. These things worked (and resulted in the capture of some 400 CSA veterans-of-numerous-battles) solely because of intensive training.

Training is great but only in combat you can see who is fit for war and who is not (especially true for commanders and pilots)...

It's true that combat provides the test of personal courage and skill. It is not necessarily true that surviving combat makes one either more skilled or more courageus. There's not much evidence that, for example, Montgomery, or McClellan, ver improved much as generals as a result of any lessons that they learned in combat. They started out utterly devoid of talent (McC) and mediocre (Monty) and stayed talentless and meidocre respectively.

For once I think we are actually closer in opinion than distant but let me try and clarify a couple of points.

In small unit operations veterans are the ones more likely to:

1. Know how to load a rucksack and adjust your webgear
2. Know what to carry
3. Know how to load a magazine
4. Spot a problem with non combatants
5. Recognize a bad situation before it gets ugly

And so forth. The things that can keep you alive and make you more effective. As you may have guessed, I'm not a pilot though[:D]

You mention that the pilots of WWII fought in a high tech arena, while that is true for that time, its very low tech compared to the advancements we've made since. No, I wasn't there, but I suspect the furballs back then were very much a close in affair and traits similar to what I mention above would play a key role.

Let me finish by saying that the xp of pilots feels about right in the game. In evenly matched encounters, we see 1 for 1 losses, as I'd expect. For Japan to win a carrier battle, they have to overwhelm the USN, as I'd expect.

I'm also a combat veteran,so it's fairly easy to detect when somebody is proffering an opinion they really don't know anything about..

What, we gotta check in our DD214's at the door? Fine just let me know where, I got mine scanned in case I ever lose the original[:D]

[denisonh]

Leo,

Please take my example in context. The Republican Guards were the cream of the Iraqi army, and had much more "combat experience" than the US forces facing them in Gulf War I.

The US superiority rested in training, tactics, and doctrine.

The point is experience is not the "sole indicator" for a UNIT's performance in combat, especially not the primary ones in any case.

As for the Zeros', I have seen all sorts of "lopsided" kill ratios in evenly matched engagements in UV 2.3 with Zeros vs F4F-4s. Did not see it as a real problem until 2.3 came out, but a problem nonetheless.

Of course, nothing as unrealistic as the mines that function as remote sensors (one of your favorite topics).[:D] That would better than talking about paranoia and public perception versus reality in assessing combat capbilities of the Japanese.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I have a question about "historical" effectiveness.

Is it historical for the huge kill ratios that result in the game between the F4Fs and Zeros? (can we say Uber-Zero?)

This topic was run to ground in the UV thread, and think that we are going to go down that same road again.

One of the premises that differentiate "world class" military establishments is superior doctrine and training. Superior trained troops with better doctrine will defeat an enemy with battlefield experience (US Army vs the Republican Guards for example).


There are serious doubts as to the "value" of the Japanese experience in China, particularly with respect to doctrine and tactics. The US, the USN in particular, paid a great deal of attention to unit operations. Given that combat is a collective excersize, it collective skill in the form of superior leadership, tactical employment and doctrine will generally beat individual skill and equipment (something like the France in 1940).

So framing this discussion with historical evidence (kill ratios would be a good start) and an understanding of the synergistic effects of the unit on combat (the principle of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts) will have more credibility IMHO.

You can't compare USA vs. Japan in WWII with USA vs. Iraq nowadays.

That would simply be ridiculous.


Japan was truly world power in WWII with extremely highly trained 1st class Navy, Army and Air Force.


Also I don't see any suggestion of super (or "Uber") in both UV and WitP games.

You can ask my PBEM opponents - when I play as Allies I kill enemy Zero fighters - when I play as Japanese I kill with my Zero fighters.


Also let us not forget that historical truth is that Zero _DID_ surprise USA and that it was very very effective weapon at the begging of the war (i.e. entering dogfight with Zero meant certain death).

When time passed proper tactics (like _NEVER_ dogfight Zero) were introduced and Zero shortcomings become very obvious...


If you want to amuse yourself you can read USA reports from the beginning 1942 when it was firmly believed that:

- German pilots fly for Japanese (because all Japanese were small people with thick glasses).

- German planes are in fact Japanese planes (because Japan is such technologically inferior country unable to produce anything complex).


Leo "Apollo11"

[Vaevictis_386]

Regarding IJN pilots gaining experience in China -- how many were participating in the conflict after the early actions around Shanghai, etc. The Army Navy feud made the Navy extremely reluctant to 'waste' any assets on China, the army's pet project. No Japanese marines were fighting for Changsha or such. Did they let their pilots go inland though?

[denisonh]

That is one of the "right" lessons.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Caltone

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Combat experience in and of itself is not going to create a more effective unit.

Experience can be helpful, but well trained unit with solid Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures, quality leadership, and doctrine that matches personnel and equipment for the battlefield task is bettter prepared to suceed on the battlefield.

Codifying experience into knowledge on how to collectively solve battlefield problems is in great part a function of doctrine and training.

Expereience is wasted if the right lessons are not learned.

Absolutely. It goes without saying that the NCO's and Officers need to be of high caliber to insure the proper lessons are learned and bad habits are corrected. But when conducting a recon of the perimeter, you don't put the new guy on point.

[Mynok]

Please take my example in context. The Republican Guards were the cream of the Iraqi army, and had much more "combat experience" than the US forces facing them in Gulf War I.

The US superiority rested in training, tactics, and doctrine.

Don't leave out technology. Our weapons systems were so infinitely superior to theirs it has no parallel in history that I can recall. They had to be used effectively, of course, and that's where your three come in. However, let's be honest and recognize the Iraqis brought a noodle to a shooting war.

[Yamato hugger]

Did they let their pilots go inland though?

No. They flew from naval air bases and in some cases from CVEs and CVLs. They never based at "army" bases.

[tigercub]

So if some of you guys still think that the us cv pilots should be 90 exp were do you fit these pilots with real kills mostly flying ME109s what 200 exp give me a break!! .
This list very nice reading i must say.... the top pilots here would eat aces with 5 kills for breaky think about it, this why i say no pilot should have more than 80 exp with out combat exp....
"Bubi"

Erich Alfred Hartmann
(never lost a wingman
in 1456 missions)

352 * *

"Gerd"

Erich Gerhard Barkhorn
(1104 missions)

301 * * * * * * *

-- the highest scoring aces in the world --

Gunther Rall
(621 missions)

275 * * Rall's 262 update

"Bruno"

* Otto Kittel
(583 missions,
Top 190 Ace)

267 (KIA 16feb45) * *

"Nowi"

Walter Nowotny
(250 in 442 missions)!!!

258 (KIA 8nov44, Aus)

"Willi"

Wilhelm Batz
(237 in 445 missions)

237 * *



Erich Rudorffer
(13 kills in 17 minutes)

224 (86 in the west) *

"Pritzl"

Heinrich Bar
(125 in the west)

221 (16 w/a jet) * * * *

Hermann Graf
(200 in 13 months)

212 (1st to 200) *

* Heinrich Ehrler
(KIA 4apr45)

209 *

"Theo"

Theodor Weissenberger
208 * * *

"Fips"

* Hans Philips
(KIA 8oct43)

206 * * * *

Walter Schuck
206 * * *

"Toni"

* Anton Hafner
(KIA 17oct44)

204 * *

Helmut Lipfert
203 *

"Black Devil" by Nicolas Trudgian
"Krupi"
Walter Krupinski
197 * * * * * *

"Toni"

Anton Hackl
192 * * * * *

Joachim Brendel
189

"Max"

* Maximilian Stotz
(MIA 19aug43)

189 * * *

* Joachim Kirschner
188 (KIA '43) *

* Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle
180 (KIA 3nov43) *

Gunther Josten
178

"Macky"

Johannes Steinhoff
176 (interview) * *

Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert
174

Gunther Schack
174

"Bully"

* Emil Lang
(18 Kills in 1 day)

173 (KIA 3sep44)

"Johnny"

* Heinz Schmidt
173 *

* Horst Ademeit
166 (MIA 7aug44)

* Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke
162 (KIA 23mar44)

"Jochen" the "Eagle of Africa"

* Hans-Joachim Marseille
(17 Kills in 1 day) * *

158 (KIFA 30sep42)

* Heinrich Sturm
158-157

"Gerd"

Gerhard Thyben
157

* Hans Beisswenger
152 (KIA 6mar43) *

"Bonifaz"

* Peter Duttmann
152

Gordon Gollob
150 *

Fritz Tegtmeier 146
* Albin Wolf 144 (+32 unconfimed, KIA 2apr44)
Kurt Tanzer 143
* "Tutti" Friedrich-Karl Mueller 140
* Heinrich Setz 138
Rudolf Trenkel 138
Walter Wolfrum 137
* Horst-Gunther von Fassong 137-136
Herbert Ihlefeld 137-123
* Otto Foennekold 136
* Karl-Heinz Weber 136
Adolf Dickfeld 136
* Joachim Muncheberg 135 (KIA 23mar43)*
* Hans Waldmann 134
Alfred Grislawski 133
"Hannes" Johannes Wiese 133 (+75 probs)
* Walter Oesau 133-117 (KIA 11may44)*
* Franz Schall 133 - 117 (KIFA 10apr45)
Adolf Borchers 132
* Erwin Clausen 132
* Wilhelm Lemke 131
Herbert Ihlefeld 130
* "Bazi" Heinrich Sterr 130-127 (KIA 26nov44)
* Gerhard Hoffman 130-125
Franz Eisenach 129
Walter Dahl 129-128
Franz Dorr 128
Friedrich Obleser 127-120
Rudolf Rademacher 126
* "Jupp" Josef Zwernemann 126
* Freidrich Wachowiak 126+ (KIA 16jul44)
"Dieter" Dietrich Hrabak 125
* Wolf-Udo Ettel 124
* Wolfgang Tonne 122 (KIFA 20apr43)*
Heinz Marquardt 121


"Top Night Fighter" by Stan Stokes

Heinz -Wolfgang Schnaufer
(claimed 9 Lancasters 21feb45)

121 (Top Nightfighter)


"Bazzi" Robert Weiss 121
* Erich Leie 121-118
Reinhard Seiler 118-109
Franz-josef Beerenbrock 117
* Hans-Joachim Birkner 117 (in 284 missions, KiFA 13dec44)
* Jakob Norz 117
* "Piepl" Heinz Wernicke 117
* August Lambert 116
Wilhelm Crinius 114
Werner Schroer 114
* Hans Dammers 113
* Berthold Korts 113
* Helmut Lent 113-110 (102 at night)
* Gunther Lutzow 113-105 *
"Bu-Mann" Kurt Buhlingen 112
* "Kuddel" Kurt Ubben 110 *
Franz Woidich 110
Viktor Bauer 109-106
* Emil Bitsch 108
"Assi" Hans Hahn 108
Bernhard Vechtel 108
* Werner Lucas 106
Heinz Sachsenberg 104
"Dolfo" "Mufti" Adolf Galland 104-103 (7 w/jets)
Ebberhard von Boremski 104-90
Siegfried Freytag 102 (career w/French Foreign Legion after the war)
* Friedrich Geisshardt 102
* Egon Mayer 102 (KIA '44)*
* Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 102 (KIA 9aug42)*
* "Sepp" Josef Wurmheller 102 (KIA '44)*
Herbert Rollwage 102
* Rudolf Miethig 101
* "Vati" Werner Molders 101 (+14 in SCW, KIFA 22nov42) *
Rudolf Mueller 101
"Pips" Josef Priller 101 (all in West)
Ulrich Wernitz 101
Paul-Heinrich Daehne 100
Heinrich Bartels 99 * *
Wolfgang Spaate 99
Horst Hannig 98
Gustav Roedel 98
Hans Schleef 98
Helmut Mertens 97
Dieter von Eichel-Streiber 96
Heinrich Hoefmeier 96
Franz Hrdlicka 96
"Wumm" Siegfried Lemke 96
Hermann Schleinghege 96
Leopold Muenster 95
Rudolf Resch 95
Siegfried Simsch 95
Anton Doebele 94
Heinrich Kloepper 94
"Paule" Edmund Rossmann 93
* "Wumm" Siegfried Schnell 93 *
Helmut Bennemann 92
*Gerhard Loos 92 (KIA 6mar44)
Oskar Romm 92
Anton Resch 91
Gunther Heeger 90
Lothar Mai 90
Georg Schentke 90
Lothar May 90-45
Heinz Kemethmueller 89
Anton Mader 86
Ulrich Woehnert 86
Gerhard Koeppen 85
Heinz Ewald 85
Gerhard Koeppen 85
Walter Zellot 85
Peter Kalden 84
Werner Quast 84
Walter Ohlrogge 83
Otto Wessling 83
Hans Gruenberg 82
Emil Darjes 82
Hans Goetz 82
Horst Hasse 82
Helmut Missner 82
Franz Beyer 81
Hubertus von Bonin 81
Hugo Broch 81
Max-Hermann Luecke 81
Willi Nemitz 81
Wilhelm Philipp 81
Rudolf Wagner 81
Herbert Bachnick 80
Wolfgang Ewald 79
Otto Wuerfel 79
Georg-Peter Eder 78 (12 w/jets)
Heinrich Krafft 78
Karl-Gottfried Nordmann 78
Josef Haiboeck 77
Johannes-Hermann Meier 77
Hans-Joachim Kroschinski 76
Maximilian Mayerl 76
Alexander Preinfalk 76
Alfred Teumer 76
Edwin Theil 76
Herbert Huppertz 76-68
Johannes Bunzek 75
Helmut Grollmus 75
Karl Neumann 75
Johannes Pilcher 75
Hans Roehrig 75
Joachim Wandel 75
Gustav Fielinghaus 74
Otto Gaiser 74
Friedrich Haas 74
* Karl-Heinz Meltzer 74 - 35 (MIA 14aug43)
Anton Lindner 73
Gerhard Michalski 73
Otto Schultz 73
Klaus Mietusch 72
Wilhelm Mink 72
Karl-Heinz Schnell 72
"Addi" Adolf Glunz 72-71
Hans Fuss 71
Alfred Heckmann 71
Gunther Scheel 71 (in 70 missions !!)
Hans-Heinrich Doebrich 70
Heinz Gossow 70
Karl Hoffmann 70
* Hermann-Friedrick Joppien 70 (KIA 25aug41)*
Herbert Lange 70
Rudolf Linz 70
Emil Omert 70
Rudolf Richter 70
Helmut Rueffler 70
Ernst Suss 70
Armin Koehler 69
Ernst Weissmann 69
Eugen-Ludwig Zweigart 69
Kurt Dombacher 68
Walter Hoeckner 68
Heinrich Jung 68
Herbert Kaiser 68
Richard Lepple 68
Fritz Losigkeit 68
Gunther von Maltzahn 68
Hans Streloew 68
Otto Tange 68
Karl-Heinz Langer 68-30
Gustav Denk 67
Fritz Dinger 67
Herbert Findeisen 67
* Karl Fuchs 67 (KIA 10oct43)
Erbo Graf von Kageneck 67
Franz Scheiss 67
Franz Schwaiger 67
Hubert Strassl 67
Erwin Fleig 66
Reinhold Hoffmann 66
Werner Strieb (Streib) 67 - 60
Franz Czech 65
Heinrich Fuellgrabe 65
Berthold Grassmuck 65
Karl-Heinz Kempf 65
* Manfred Meurer 65 (KIA '44)
Waldemar Semelka 65
Bernd Gallowitsch 64
Juergen Harder 64
Rolf Hermichen 64
Walter Lindner 64
Viktor Petermann 64
Franz Ruhl 64
Walter Borchers 63
Franz Goetz 63
Karl Hammerl 63
Heinrich Hoffmann 63
Gerhard Homuth 63
Hermann Staiger 63

Kurt Welter
(highest scoring JET Ace
w/ 26 +4 prob kills) * *

63 (in 93 missions, 56 night)
Wilhelm Hubner 62
Helmut Neumann 62
Hannes Trautloft 61-57
Hans-Ekkehard Bob 60-59
Gerhard Beutin 60
* Horst Carganico 60 (KIA 27may44)*
August Mors 60
"Fox" Karl Munz 60
Alfred Rauch 60
Kurt Tangermann 60
Walter Wever 60
* Franz Eckerle 59 (KIA 14feb42)*
Alfred Franke 59
* "Fifi" Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 59 (MIA 7sep42)
Karl Steffen 59

Hermann Buchner (worlds first kill w/a jet)

58 (+48 tanks &?)*


Lutz-Wilhelm Burckhardt 58
Siegfried Engfer 58
Wilhelm Freuworth 58
Herbert Friebel 58
Hans-Joachim Langer 58
Heinz-Wilhelm Ahnert 57
Walter Brandt 57
Herbert Broennle 57
Hugo Dahmer 57
Heinrich Dittlmann 57
Kurt Ebener 57
Adolf Kalkum 57
Johannes Seifurt 57
Edmund Wagner 57
Hermann Wolf 57
Herbert Bareuter 56
Helmut-Felix Bolz 56
Alfred Burk 56
Manfred Eberwein 56
Heinrich Hackler 56
Isken Herrmann 56
Helmut Holtz 56
Eduard Isken 56
Helmut Schoenfelder 56
Gunther Seeger 56
* Helmut Wick 56 (MIA 28nov40)*

Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland 55
Erich Hohagen 55
Gabriel Tautscher 55
Johann Badum 54
Wilhelm Balthasar 54
Karl-Heinz Bendert 54
Wilhelm Hauswirth 54
Kurt Knappe 54
Heinz Leber 54
Herbert Puschmann 54
* Hans Reiff 54 - 48 (KIA 2dec44)
Franz-K Barten 53
Heinz-Edgar Berres 53
Albert Brunner 53
Hans-Joachim Heyer 53
Julius Meimberg 53
Friedrich Rupp 53
Karl Sattig 53
"Willy" Wilhelm Kientsch 53 - 52
Heine Cordes 52
Hans Ehlers 52
Alfred Gross 52
Ludwig Hafner 52
Rudolf Pflanz 52
Heinrich Wefers 52
Heinz Knoke 52-44
* Egmont Prinz zu Lippe-Weissenfeld 51 (KIA '44)
Rudolf Schmidt 51
Otto Schultz 51
Walter Duellberg 50
Hans-Joachim Jabs 50
Emil Knittel 50
Frank Lisendahl 50
Fritz Lueddecke 50
*Wilhelm Schilling 50 (KIA 20feb44)
Fritz Schroeter 50
Karl Willius 50
Helmut Merkel 50-25
Rudolf Ehrenberger 49
Klaus Quaet-Faslem 49
Fredrich Beckh 48
Peter Seigler 48
Heinz-Gerhard Vogt 48
Oskar Zimmermann 48
Heinz Golinski 47
Gunther Hannack 47
Eckhard Hubner 47
Fritz Karch 47
Herbert Kutscha 47
* Georg Seidel 47 (KIA 6mar43)
Gunther Ruebell 47
Erich Schmidt 47
Werner Stumpf 47
Wolfgang Boewing-Trueding 46
Gunther Fink 46
Rudiger Kirchmayr 46
Erwin Laskowski 46
Hans-Karl Mayer 46
Gunther Rammelt 46
"Quax" Karl Schnorrer 46
Franz Schulte 46
Alfred Surau 46
Ernst Borngen 45
Ernst Druenkler 45
Juergen Brocke 45
Ernst-Erich Hirschfeld 45
* Wilhelm Kuken 45 (K 2apr45)
Karl-Wolfgang Redlich 45
Gerhard Schopfel 45
Hans Frese 44
Juergen Hoerschelmann 44
Wilhelm Hofmann 44
Reinhold Knacke 44
Walter Matoni 44
Wilhelm Moritz 44
Richard Quante 44
Wilhelm Steinmann 44
Otto Vinzent 44
Karl Boris 43
Ludwig Franzisket 43
Kurt Goltzsch 43
Alois Lechner 43
Hubert Muetherich 43
Josef "Josi" Pohs 43
Paul Stolte 43
Rudolf Klemm 42
Emil Reinhard 42
* Herbert Schramm 42 (KIA 1dec43)
Robert Olejnik 41
Johannes Schmidt 41
Gerhard Schneider 41
Heinz Arnold 40
* Rudolf Busch 40 (KIA 17jan43)
Karl Boehm-Fettelbach 40
Peter Bremer 40
Wolf-Dietrich Huy 40
Wolfgang Neuhoff 40
Gerhard Schoepfel 40
Georg Seckel 40
Gunther Steinhausen 40
* Hermann Segatz 40 - 31 (KIA 8mar44)
Heinz Bretnuetz 39
Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin 39
Alfons Klein 39
Kurt Lasse 39
Bernhard Lausch 39
Dietrich Schmidt 39
Georg Seelmann 39
Rudolf Sinner 39
Fritz Stendel 39
* Robert Fuchs 39 - 22 (MIA 22oct41)
Hans Dortenmann 38
Pepi Gabl 38
Walter Loos 38
Stefan Litjens 38
Theodore Osterkamp 38(32 WWI)
Detler Rohwer 38
Erwin Sawallisch 38
Wolfgang Schellmann 38
Kurt Sochatzky 38
Gerhard Koall 37
Karl-Heinz Leesmann 37
Klaus Neumann 37
Waldemar Radener 37 (+14prob)
Wolfgang Traft 37
Helmut Belser 36
Helmut Bergmann 36
Georg Keil 36
Friedrich Koerner 36
Elias Kuehlein 36
Herbert Wehnelt 36
Hans Weik 36
Fuelbert Zink 36
Gunther Bertram 35
Graf Heinrich von Einsiedel 35
August Luy 35
Bruno Stolle 35
? Ulbrich 35+ - 33
* Joachim Hamer 35 - 30 (MIA 3sep43)
Paul Brandt 34
Hans von Hahn 34
Heinz-Horst Hissbach 34
Wilhelm Johnen 34
Karl Kennel 34
Johannes Naumann 34
Karl-Heinz Plucker 34
Herbert Schob 34
Walter Stengel 34
Horst Tietzen 34
Helmut Wettstein 34
Heinz Beyer 33
Harro Harder 33
Erwin Leykauf 33
Wolfgang Lippert 33
Waldemar Soffing 33
Hans Stechmann 33
Ferdinand Vogel 33
* Hugo Frey 32 (KIA 6mar44)
Rudolf Glockner 32
Joachim Hacker 32
Werner Husemann 32
Werner Machold 32
Gunther Specht 32
Gerhard Weigand 32
* Ralph Furch 32 - 30 (KIA 22jan43)
Peter Crump 31
Carl von Lieres 31
Hermann Seegatz 31
Gustav Sprick 31
Alfred Seidl 31 - 10
Erich Bartz 30
Max Bucholz 30
Gerhard Friedrich 30
Josef Foezoe 30
Werner Gerth 30
Friedrich Heimann 30
* Harry Koch 30 (KIA 22dec43)
Rudolf Pingel 30
Walter Adolph 29
Otto Bertram 29
Franz Blazytko 29
* Hermann Leiste 29 (KIA 8jun42)
Paul Szameitat 29
Heinrich Wohlers 29
Ernst Andres 28
Anton Benning 28 (18 were 4-engined bombers)
Hans-Joachim Heinecke 28
August Luebking 28
Helmut Pfueller 28
Willi Reschke 28
Franz Stigler 28
Hermann Wischniewski 28
Gunther Bleckmann 27
Emil Claude 27
Kurt Ebersberger 27
Fritz Gromotka 27
Anton Hoerwick 27
Hans Kolbow 27
Wilhelm Mayer 27
Horst Petzchler 27
Otto Russ 27
Werner Thierfelder 27
Friedrich Dahn 26
"Martello"Alfred Hammer 26
Hans Knauth 26
* Raimund Koch 26 (KIFA 2nov44)
Anton-Rudolf Piffer 26
Hans Remmer 26
Willi Reschke 26
Peter Werfft 26
Egon Albrecht 25
Otto Bach 25 (KIA 26nov44)
? Bellof 25
Walter Engel 25
? Flogel 25
August Kayser 25
Fritz Liebelt 25
Arnold Lignitz 25
Emil Schact 25
Karl Stadek 25
Gunther Stedtfeld 25
Eckehard Tichy 25
Horst Walter 25
Karl Wuensch 25
Franz-Josef Zoufahl 25
Rudi Zwesken 25
Emil Babenz 24
Harry von Bulow-Bothcamp 24(6 WWI)
Helmut Dahms 24
Helmut Hoppe 24
Karl Hulshoff 24
Hannes Keller 24
Hans-Heinrich Koenig 24
Florian Salwender 24
Klaus Scheer 24
Wolfgang Thimmig 24
Hans-Gerd Wennekers 24
Arnold Doering 23
Herbert Koch 23
Hans Pragen 23
August Schneider 23
Leo Schumacher 23
Horst Sternberg 23
Helmut Viedebantt 23
Gunther Landt 23-22
Artur Beese 22
Heinz Busse 22
Rudolf Dassow 22
Reinhold Eckardt 22
Herbert Kroh 22
Otto Mayer 22
Robert Menge 22
Erhard Peters 22
Rolf-Peter Pringle 22
Hans Richter 22
Guenter Scholz 22
* Friedrich Simon 22 (MIA 9mar45)
Hans-Joachim Steffens 22
Willi Unger 22
Hans-Juergen Westphal 22
Rolf Kaldrack 21
Horst Reuter 21
Johannes Schalk 21
Robert Spreckles 21
Heinrich Steis 21
* Franz von Werra 21 (POW '40 esc. from Canada, KIA 25oct41)
Maximilian Winkler 21
Robert Wolf 21
David Wollmann 21
Rudolf Artner 20
Paul Becker 20
Erich Gerlitz 20
Hans Hahn 20
Werner Haugk 20
Gunther Heckmann 20
Harald Jung 20
Lothar Keller 20
Johannes Kiel 20
Georg Munderloh 20
Willi Roth 20
Gerhard Schaschke 20
Paul Schauder 20
Erich Scheyda 20
Walter Schneider 20
Gerhard Schwartz 20
Gerhard Sommer 20
Wilhelm Spiess 20
Hans Tetzner 20
Hans Udet 20
Gotthard Handrick 20 -15 (1936 Olympic Pentathlon Champion)
* Helmut Baudach 20+ - 5 (KIA 22feb45)
Georg Christl 19
Hans Dipple 19
Karl-Heinz Krahl 19
Peter Reischer 19
Winifried Schmidt 19
Hermann Sommer 19
Fritz Stritzel 19
Oscar Boesch 18
Adolf Breves 18
Rudi Dueding 18
Heinz Ebeling 18
Hannes Gentzen 18
Gunther Gerhard 18
Hermann Grabmann 18
Erich Groth 18
Helmut Haugk 18
Kurt Holler 18
Kurt Matzak 18
Eduard Meyer 18
Walter Meyer 18
Hans Peterburs 18
Wolfgang Schenk 18
Ernst Scheufele 18
Heinz Schumann 18
Friedrich-Wilhelm Stakejahn 18
Alfred Wehmeyer 18
Dietrich Weinitschke 18
Joachim Blechschmidt 17
Paul Galland 17
Peter Jenne 17
Theodore Rossiwall 17
Horst Ulenberg 17
* Werner Cohrs 17 - 15 (KIA 11jun44)
* Erich Simon 17 - 15 (KIA 7oct43)
Arthur Beth 16
Erich Demuth 16
Heinrich Dreisbach 16
Georg Fengler 16
Wutz Galland 16
* Hans-Joachim Hartwein 16 (MIA 21aug42)
Rudolf Huebl 16
Heinz Mahikuch 16
Conny Meyer 16
Erich Mix 16(3 WWI)
Karl Wenschelmeyer 16
Ulrich Diesing 15
Hermann Guhl 15
Richard Heller 15
* Hans-Gunther Koch 15 (KIA 3apr45)
Josef Kunz 15
Fritz Sengschmidt 15
Gunther Tonne 15-20
Waldemar Wuebke 15
Sophuu Baagoe 14
Heinz Birk 14
Walter Blume 14
Felix-M Brandis 14
Wendelin Bruekel 14
Albert Espenlaub 14
Wilhelm Gath 14
Georg "Schorsch" Kraft 14
Hans Witzel 14
Hermann Foerster 13
Werner Gayko 13
Werner Gerhard 13
Heinz Halstrick 13
Emil Kaiser 13
Gunther Kelch 13
Willi Kothmann 13
Eduard Neumann 13
Joachim Schlichting 13
* Andreas Hartl 13 - 11 (KIA 8apr44)
Johann Aistleitner 12
Jakob Augustin 12 (+?)
Xaver Ellenrieder 12
Gerhard Gleuwitz 12
Heinz Gomann 12
Erich Javer 12
Gerhard Kepler 12
Eduard Koslowski 12
Erich Krainik 12
Franz Kunz 12
Johannes Lutter 12
Ernst Maak 12
Karl-Heinrich Matern 12
Erhardt Meek 12
Heinz Nacke 12
Wolfgang Neu 12
Hans niederhoefer 12
Heinrich Rosenberg 12
Wolfgang Rost 12
Ludwig Scharf 12
Johannes Schmidt 12
Erich Schoefbock 12
Franz Weinhausen 12
Peter Ahrens 11
Walter Fieser 11
Joachim Gunther 11
Wilhelm Hachfeld 11
Engelbert Heiner 11
Freidrich Hoffman 11
Georg Kiefner 11
Wolfgang Kosse 11
Herbert Krenz 11
* Erwin Leibold 11 (K 1942)
Siegfried Ney 11
Gunther Reubell 11

Hans-Ulrich Rudel 11
Heinz Seidel 11
August Schneider 11
Erich Schwarz 11
Hans Vollett 11
Joseph Buerschgens 10
Hans Berschwinger 10
Gunther Bloemertz 10
Josef Burschgens 10
August Fischer 10
Heinz de Fries 10
Eugen von Geinanth 10
Viktor Gruber 10
Gerhard Guttmann 10
Ludwig Hartmann 10
Alfred Jacobi 10
Eberhard Kaross 10
Ernst Klager 10
Hans Klein 10
Wilhelm Mueller 10
Karl Pfeiffer 10
Werner Schumacher 10
Gunther Schwanecke 10
Hans Stolinberger 10
Karl Strohecker 10
Franz Stuckler 10
Robert Unzeitig 10
Siegfried Wandam 10
Emil Woltersdorf 10
Bruno Buzzi 9
Ernst Christof 9
Edgar Doerre 9
Heinz Hanke 9
Kurt Hermann 9 (POW 10mar41)
"Hajo" Hans-Joachim Herrmann 9
Kurt Jenisch 9
Heinz Krug 9
Rudolf Leuschel 9
Wilhelm Makrocki 9
Arthur Mendl 9
Horst Oberlander 9
Hugo Schneider 9
Gerhard Schulwitz 9
Willi Szuggar 9
"Hadi" Hans-Dieter Weihs 9
Heinfried Wiegand 9
Alexander von Winterfelt 9
Josef Zirngibl 9
Lorenz Andreson 8
* Jens Bahnsen 8 (KIA 19aug43)
Georg Beyer 8
Heinrich Beirwirth 8
Erwin Busch 8
Herbert Buttner 8 (POW 28uag44)
Wolfgang Falck 8
Deiter Gerhard 8
Alfred Heidl 8
Kurt Hein 8
Hermann Hoffmann 8
Ernst Jackel 8
Hans Johanssen 8
Friedrich Lang 8
Heinz Lennartz 8
Heinrich Lesch 8
Werner Methfessel 8
Karl Metnich 8
Rudolf Rademacher 8
Ralph von Rettberg 8
Martin Rysayy 8
Karl-F Schlossstein 8
Gottfried Schmidt 8
Hans Schubert 8
Otto Stammberger 8
Gunther Wegman 8
Theodore Weissenberger 8
Heinz-Gunther Adam 7
Hans-Joachim Bahr 7
Erich Beulich 7
Max Clerico 7
Karl Ebbinghausen 7
Helmut Eberspaecher 7
Karl-Heinz Ehlen 7
Gunther Eichhorn 7
Walter Gruenlinger 7
Gerhard Grzymalla 7
Eberhard Henrici 7
Walter Holl 7
Walter Horten 7
Werner Huebner 7
Herbert Kaminski 7
* Gerhard Koch 7 (KIA 25feb45)
Karl Laub 7
Theodore Lindemann 7
Bruno Mischkot 7
Rudolf Scheffel 7
* "Bubi" Alfred Schreiber 7 (KIA 26nov44)
Otto Stammberger 7
Joachim Zeller 7
Peter Andel 6
Sigfried Benz 6
* Heinrich Eickhoff 6 (KIA 23ug44)
Josef Gartner 6
Heinz Gottlob 6
Hans Hartigs 6
Bodo Helms 6
Otto-Heinrich Hilleke 6
Georg Hohn 6
Heinrich Jessen 6
Dietrich Kehl 6
* Robert Koch 6 (KIA 8aug44)
Rolf von Lillenhoff 6
Friedrich Luedecke 6
Rudolf Lueder 6
Willi Makenstedt 6
Fritz Mueller 6
Theo Osterkamp 6 (+32 in ww1)
Bela Preisler 6
Heinz Schmidt 6
Heinrich Vandeweerd 6
Otto Schreiber 6 - 5
Kurt Bohn 5
Paul Bohn 5
Hans-Joachim Borreck 5
Franz Bozicek 5
Gottfried Dietze 5
Hans Dirksen 5
Johannes Edmann 5
* Christain Eickhoff 5 (KIA 26jan43)
Franz Elles 5
Hans-Joachim Fast 5
Hans-Juergen Frolich 5
Erich Fuhrmann 5
Josef Grumm 5
August Hachtel 5
Hubert Heckman 5
Horst Hennig 5
* ? Heim 5 (KIA 10apr45)
Heinrich Heuser 5
Erich Klein 5
Karl-Heinz Koch 5
Herbert Kowalski 5
Gerhard Lang 5
Friedrich Lindelaub 5
Franz Leuders 5
Richard Lutzka 5
Kurt Mueller 5
Gerhard Mueller-Duhe 5
Wolfgang Polster 5
Emil Puttfargen 5
Eckhard Roch 5
Paul-August Stolte 5
Ulrich Steinhilper 5 (POW 27oct40)
Adolph Tabbat 5
[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[JohnK]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Japanese did great in all air battles vs. USN up until Midway

Then why is there no example of Zeros dominating USN Wildcats?

[Jon_Hal]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

So if some of you guys still think that the us cv pilots should be 90 exp were do you fit these pilots with real kills mostly flying ME109s what 200 exp give me a break!! .
This list very nice reading i must say.... the top pilots here would eat aces with 5 kills for breaky think about it, this why i say no pilot should have more than 80 exp with out combat exp....
"Bubi"

Holy cow! This statement proves that you need to re-consider the topic. One we are talking about Pre-war USN Carrier pilots and now, to prove your point, your compairing them to German pilots at the end of World War 2? Not to offend but Do you realize that comparison makes no sense? Your list is is well and good and impressive but This is a game about pacific Combat. Those high kill aces are impressive and men of amazing skill, however they are almost all Dead the end of World war 2. Their high command kept those pilots in combat for years! many for six years! With very few exeptions The USN and allies never kept their pilots in combat more then one or two combat rotations then they shipped home. Those 80 exp pilots of the pre-war US navy CVs mostly survived and went home and trained a whole new generation of pilots that crushed both Germany and Japan.

Add in the fact that you can't compair carrier pilots to non carrier pilots easily. Japanese pre-war aviators were excellent and divided up on carrier and land bases. invariably the pilots on land bases flew missions almost daily agianst the enemy while carrier pilots were busy if they flew combat missions more then a few times a month. As a result those Carrier Pilots had much high kill ratios then their Carrier counterparts.

regards,

Jon

[mdiehl]

The P 40 was never a patch on the Me 109 /fighter vers anytime!!

Thanks for that. I almost inhaled my coffee laughing. I'll put your comment right next to other pieces of "wisdom." Stuff that sounds smart but ain't supported by the facts, like, for example, "Never hunt deer with anything less than a .300 Wby Magnum because anything less just can't get the job done."

I direct you to, for example, "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson, any of the unit records of the Tuskegee airmen, or any comprehensive set of stats on the P-40 and comparable-year models of the Me109. Bottom line is that the early variants of the P40 were somewhat undergunned, sporting 2x rifle caliber MGs and 2x.50 BMGs. The P40 N was faster at altitudes below 17,000 feet (where most of the combats in the North Africa theater occurred), and had a better climb rate. With 6x.50BMG it could penetrate any armor on an ME109 from any angle, fark up every surface or structure that it hit, shoot at longer range than the 30mm slug thrower in the ME109, shoot more ammo into the target area per unit of time, and shoot for more time overall. It was also, below 18,000 feet, somewhat more maneuverable with a greater turn rate and a smaller turn radius than the ME109.

At altitudes above 21000 feet the 109G was faster and more maneuverable and had quite the edge in air to air combat. But then, those combats tended only to occur in the context of strategic bombing. The USAAF did not use the P40 for high altitude bomber escort.

[mdiehl]

In small unit operations veterans are the ones more likely to:

1. Know how to load a rucksack and adjust your webgear
2. Know what to carry
3. Know how to load a magazine
4. Spot a problem with non combatants
5. Recognize a bad situation before it gets ugly

Well, anyone who can't accomplish 1 or 3 is not just "not a veteran" they're "not trained." I agree to 2,4, and 5. I'm not sure the analogy holds for air to air combat. Particularly 5. You're pretty well trained to recognize a bad situation because that usually involves an enemy (or in training, a friendly playing the role of the enemy) approaching you from astern or some quartering direction where his guns are pointed at you but yours are not pointed at him. That sort of situational awareness really does get instilled by training, and lots of guys washed out of fighter school because they were laggerdly at the controls. Made fine bomber pilots however.

Interesting to read in Lundstrom's "The First Team" how early and rapidly the "don't turn with the Japanese" mantra was instilled in USN pilots based on their experiences in the Marshalls raid. Apparently the fighters at Roi were not Zekes but the earlier IJN monoplane with two squirrel guns in the nose and weighing about as much as my Toyota Echo. The Wildcat pilots were alert enough that even a few seconds of experience made it obvious that attempting to turn with one would not work. Boom and Zoom tactics were already setting in, in the USN anyhow, before the first F4F-A6M encounter ever happened. There's a lesson from combat experience, although I dare say that Thach and Flatley were already talking up the dive through attack even before that.

Interesting to say the least.

You mention that the pilots of WWII fought in a high tech arena, while that is true for that time, its very low tech compared to the advancements we've made since. No, I wasn't there, but I suspect the furballs back then were very much a close in affair and traits similar to what I mention above would play a key role.

I have a problem with the notion of the furball, the wild swirling melee, and so forth. That does not seem to describe any PTO combat in which USN pilots were engaged. True, you had to get close, but with high speed closing rates, any approach other than a stern or quartering stern approach was of necessity a slash through attack. You just don't find alot of effort to turn with the enemy in USN or USMC pilots. I think "fur ball" primarily applies to the Japanese experiences against the CNAF in the late 1930s, the BoB, and WW1, but not so much to the PTO in WW2.

Let me finish by saying that the xp of pilots feels about right in the game. In evenly matched encounters, we see 1 for 1 losses, as I'd expect. For Japan to win a carrier battle, they have to overwhelm the USN, as I'd expect.

We agree. But wait for the folks who will tell you that in any 1 for 1 CV encounter prior to May 1942 the Japanese should clean the slate. They're out there. And they're out there.

[mdiehl]

This list very nice reading i must say.... the top pilots here would eat aces with 5 kills for breaky think about it

Yawn. Whatever. Eric Hartmann. The best pilot ever to shoot down 200 or more transports that ever flew.

[Kereguelen]

And because of the superiority of the P-40, the USAAF employed the P-40N battling Me 109Gs...?

As far as I know, the P-40N was mainly employed as a fighter-bomber for ground support(and quite successfull in that role) and not to stand up against German fighters. Seems that the commanders of the USAAF did not share your wisdom (maybe someone should have told them, that the P-40 was better than the Me 109G[;)]).

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The P 40 was never a patch on the Me 109 /fighter vers anytime!!

Thanks for that. I almost inhaled my coffee laughing. I'll put your comment right next to other pieces of "wisdom." Stuff that sounds smart but ain't supported by the facts, like, for example, "Never hunt deer with anything less than a .300 Wby Magnum because anything less just can't get the job done."

I direct you to, for example, "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson, any of the unit records of the Tuskegee airmen, or any comprehensive set of stats on the P-40 and comparable-year models of the Me109. Bottom line is that the early variants of the P40 were somewhat undergunned, sporting 2x rifle caliber MGs and 2x.50 BMGs. The P40 N was faster at altitudes below 17,000 feet (where most of the combats in the North Africa theater occurred), and had a better climb rate. With 6x.50BMG it could penetrate any armor on an ME109 from any angle, fark up every surface or structure that it hit, shoot at longer range than the 30mm slug thrower in the ME109, shoot more ammo into the target area per unit of time, and shoot for more time overall. It was also, below 18,000 feet, somewhat more maneuverable with a greater turn rate and a smaller turn radius than the ME109.

At altitudes above 21000 feet the 109G was faster and more maneuverable and had quite the edge in air to air combat. But then, those combats tended only to occur in the context of strategic bombing. The USAAF did not use the P40 for high altitude bomber escort.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: Jon_Hal

Eastern Solomons? Where two Jap carriers sank the Hornet and put the Enterprise out of action?

But you're quite right. The USN did start making a come back on its own well before the new aircraft types and ships showed up.

Eastern Solomons was the Enterprise and Saratoga against the Sho, Zui and Ryujo. THe Ryujo was lost to the Damaged Enterprise

the Battle of Santa Cruz. The Japanese had 4 carriers to the Enterprise and Hornet the USN lost a larger carrier but it turned back a large Japanese surface force headed for the 'canal when it could have turned the tide there.

regards, Jon

Okay. I somehow amalgamated Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz into one battle. When it was all over and the Sara and Wasp had been torpedo-ed (Sara only damaged), the USN had one fleet carrier (Enterprise) left in the Pacific versus 3 or four Jap carriers so at that point Jap carrier air was still ahead, so they were doing sort of okay.