Protectorate Problems

[Mr. Z]

Like I said above, these cases seem to happen when the original controlling nation retains some troops of the protectorate fighting for them;

Does anyone disagree with this--that in the cases where you should be able to convert a country, but can't, it always has a standing army?

[carnifex]

Nothing of the sort. As Turkey I take Transylvania from the Austrians. Transylvania has no army, no troops, and never had any. I can't protectorize it, only liberate it. As the Austrians I can protectorize it but as the Turks I can't. Transylvania is a one province country with itself as the capital. This happens with every single minor I conquer.

[jimwinsor]

I can't say with 100% certainty but it seems that way. Even a privateer still on board will suffice (effect happened with Cyrenica).

However...I'm in a game now where Saxony is like that. Was a Brit protectorate, France sieges and conquers, still says "British Protectorate" on list, and no "P" option for France.

Now I'm pretty sure I wiped out all the British Saxons prior to conquest...but due to fog of war he somehow may have a Saxon division hiding somewhere. Hard to tell.

Carnifex's Translyvania example...if Austria built a unit in Transylvania, it would be Transylvanian flagged wouldn't it? Thus can he really be sure there are no Translvanian troops in Austria's current forces? Again due to FOW its kinda to tell for certain, unfortunately.

[carnifex]

Yes, I can be sure because I set all nations to human controlled. Austria didn't build any troops nor did she receive any levies. This didn't just happen with Transylvania - when my Austria surrendered to my Turkey she lost all her border provinces, most of which could be protectorized when controlled by Austria but none of them when controlled by Turkey. I checked and they were all one province countries, so it's not like I was missing their capitol province or anything.

[Mr. Z]

Well, I wrote Eric, and he doesn't think it's related. FWIW, neither do I. But whatever the solution, it will probably fix anything in regards to troops, as well.

[Russian Guard]

I'll add that I have also observed that it is unrelated to whether a Nation has troops still active in their forces, from their previously controlled minor Country.

FWIW, I hope the "fix" with this, isn't to just automatically give control of any minor that is conquered, over to the "new" conqueror. As Mr. Winsor points out, the current mechanism allows for reflecting certain historical occurances where this _did_ occur, specifically Poland.

Since it was possible to code into the game the inability of certain Nations to, say, create Poland, I hope this same flexibility will allow for certain minor Countires to play their historical part and remain loyal to their previous owner, at least until all of the remaining troops from that minor are eliminated or (to handle the abuse of just "hiding" a singe division of these troops so as to hold on to that Protectorate forver), if the former Nations NML sinks below a certain point. At which point the Minor would roll over to their new master.

[Mr. Z]

FWIW, I hope the "fix" with this, isn't to just automatically give control of any minor that is conquered, over to the "new" conqueror. As Mr. Winsor points out, the current mechanism allows for reflecting certain historical occurances where this _did_ occur, specifically Poland.

As planned, I believe any fix will grant control of the province, but not necessarily of any forces it had.

[Mus]

Mr Z Im having trouble helping you guys figure out what the problem is because Im not sure that Ive ever seen the system function properly.

Am I supposed to be able to attach provinces that cant be made protectorates seperately to already established protectorates (such as Bavaria) to form "super protectorates" like the Confederation of the Rhine?

Maybe if I knew how it was supposed to work I could help out more with how its actually working (or not working as the case may be).

[Mr. Z]

Am I supposed to be able to attach provinces that cant be made protectorates seperately to already established protectorates (such as Bavaria) to form "super protectorates" like the Confederation of the Rhine?

i) The regional bonus unit rules were effective for 1.0 onwards, and so they don't have anything to do with joining protected countries to one another--in order to get the regional bonus units, all you have to do is be the protector of the provinces on the list for the region--they don't have to be joined together into one country or protectorate or what have you.

However, it's important to note that, for example, Nuremberg is on the list for the Confederation of the Rhine, but it can only be a protectorate as part of another country--you can't form a protectorate out of Nuremberg all by itself. It needs to be a part of another country (like Bavaria, which it usually is at the beginning of each scenario) that is made into a protectorate. Then, Nuremberg will join that country as a protectorate.

ii) The current design (effective 1.2.14 I think) is to be able to conquer or annex a country, and then be able to turn it into a protectorate later. When you do so, the idea is to be able to join it to some other country under that nation's control, forming a single country.

However, there may be a problem with the current behavior. Provinces of multi-province minors (i.e. multi-province countries) can become separated from one another by various means. For one thing, we're not sure the "make protectorate" feature introduced in 1.2.14 is turning all provinces of a conquered multi-province minor into a protectorate. It may only be turning the original capital province into a protectorate. (We'd like to hear reports on this.) In those cases, it seems, for example, that if you conquer Nuremberg and Bavaria provinces, Nuremberg can't be returned to the control of the country Bavaria (the country Bavaria originally controls both the province Bavaria and the province Nuremberg. We know this is confusing. If there's ever a CoG II, we'd like to change it. We could change it now, but may have some negative implications.) Only Bavaria (the country, and the province) can be converted into a protectorate--but Nuremberg remains annexed to your nation.

But this may be a problem for 1.0 as well--if Nuremberg becomes separated from Bavaria in any way, then the Confederation of the Rhine cannot be formed.

For example:

Nuremberg (province)
+ Bavaria (capital province)
---
= Bavaria (country; multi-province minor)

Austria conquers --> Nuremberg (province)
+ France conquers --> Bavaria (capital province)
---
= France conquers --> Bavaria (country)

France convers Bavaria (country, and capital province) to a protectorate; but Austria still controls Nuremberg. So, no regional bonus units for France.

And if Austria went back and conquered Bavaria, Nuremberg can't be re-attached to it, because provinces can't be attached to countries in the new system unless they're part of a country. Once Nuremberg becomes separated from Bavaria, it's no longer a part of any country--it's a part of the nation that conquered it!

So, two answers:

1) One problem is that you might find yourself in a game situation where Nuremberg can no longer be made into a protectorate of your nation, because it has been separated from its country and annexed by one nation or another (including your own)--and so you can, from that point on, never get the regional bonus units. This may be a problem both for normal behavior in 1.0, and for converting conquered countries into protectorates in 1.2.14. We're deciding whether and how to "fix" this.

2) And remember that, as noted above, you cannot attach a province to a country you're converting into a protectorate unless it's already a part of a country. I couldn't grab Illyria, for example, and stick it onto Bosnia willy-nilly. I could only grab Venetia (along with its two provinces, Veneto and Illyria) and join it to Bosnia. This is expected behavior, but may change, or it may not, depending on how we decide to "fix" 1).

[Mus]

Do you want me to make some games where I build up Prussia or another local power to the point where I (or someone else using the save game) can take various Bavarian provinces to test things out?

Im running 1.2.16 beta.

[TexHorns]

I've tried to print screen to be able to show the country detail list without success. I still am only able to protectorate Lorraine and no other minor countries that I have conquered including Bavaria, Batavia, Bosnia, Italia, Hanover and East Prussia. In fact after conquering Bavaria, Bavaria's capital moved to Berg and Bavarian flags and units now appear with Berg and two other countries. (not Nuremberg or Bavaria). In my opinion the protectorate conversion mechanic is not working. Additionally I was ceded Serbia, Moldavia and Besserabia in a treaty and am unable to protecorate them as well.
Started in 1792 and now in 1802.

[Mr. Z]

Do you want me to make some games where I build up Prussia or another local power to the point where I (or someone else using the save game) can take various Bavarian provinces to test things out?

Sure, if you want.

[gdpsnake]

Perhaps the solution is to have a 'choice' to create a Kingdom.

For example, I am France and can create several historical kingdoms like Poland, The Kingdom of Italy and so on. Other countries could create different Kingdoms such as Holland for England or The Ottoman Empire for Turkey.

I select a button for Kingdom creation and my choices are listed (along with requirements). The requirements should be the simple control of certain provinces either they are currently conquered or Protectorate. Should not matter about ANY previous ownerships or controls.

I own all the correct provinces to create the Kingdom of Italy so that choice is highlighted and I select it (some kingdoms may only be one province). The kingdom is created, all the provinces revert to that Kingdom and the Capitol becomes whichever is the correct capitol. The Kingdom also immediately becomes a protectorate of the creator.

Once created, a Kingdom's provinces can never revert to anything else and will remain as is to the end. They will produce their own kingdom units and will remain a protectorate of the creator unless conquered (All provinces and capitol) or is liberated by the creator. If completely conquered, the Kingdom becomes a protectorate of the conquering nation.

So there is a price to creating a kingdom and that is the provinces get 'tied' to that kingdom and can never become conquered provinces one can control - they will always be protectorate provinces once a Kingdom is created. The Kingdom won't change sides until you get all of it (so the units will still fight you until you get ALL of the territory when they will revert to your side.)

This is very historical and gives players a strategy for creating a kingdom and glory points as well. For instance, the Kingdom of Portugal and the Kingdom of Holland would be real targets for England since the Batavian republic is part of Holland. The strategies would then resemble more realistic confrontations France would try to get Poland as it is a 'gem' for Polish lancer production while others will not (they can't create it). Turkey will go for the Ottoman empire (the only way to declare herself one by the way...) Prussia and France will be loggerheads over the Germanic provinces. Spain and England will be loggerheads over Portugal, Russia and Turkey over the 'stan' provinces and so on.....

Some choices (I have not researched all the possible kingdoms):

France: Rhine confederation, Poland, North Italy, Dalmatia, Switzerland, Bavaria, Holland, Westphalia, Naples
Prussia: Saxony, Rhine conferderation.
Turkey: Ottoman Empire
England: Portugal, Holland, the Two Sicilies, Palistine?
Spain: Portugal, Papacy
Russia: Finland, Georgia, Armenia
Sweden: Finland, Denmark
Austria: Bavaria, Venice, Serbia.

Keep in mind that some countries can create some kingdoms that others can't and that will spark fueds over some 'double' tagged provinces. Cool start some diplomacy!

[TexHorns]

Hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but as I continue my game, I liberated a conquered Bosnia. Several turns later it asked me to protectorate it. I accpeted. Instead of slashes, it is solid. In the country details it says french protectorate.

Also, the Berg et al minors making up Bavaria finally asked to be protectorate. If you recall from above, Bavaria province and Nuremberg had been conquered and Bavarian capital assigned to Berg and Bavarian units appeared in Berg, and two other adjacent provinces. After Berg-Bavaria requested protectorate I checked the country details list and a blue P appeared next to Bavaria. FINALLY I thought I have the opportunity to protecorate a conquered minor (Bavaria province I'm thinking). After clicking the P I was asked what province did I want to attach to Bavaria and it listed 5 or 6 provinces, all of which were currently either french conquered or protectorate. I knew that Berg and the other two adjacent provinces were already protecorates, so I chose Bavaria province thinking since it was conquered it would go to protectorate status. When the turn was over I checked the next turn on the map and Bavaria province is still solid blue.

So I don't know what good clicking on protecorate did. I am finding that as the leader in glory, it is in my interest to liberate some conquered countries. Eventhough their opinion of me is horrible. About half the time they request me to protecorate. The only way I see at this point to counter the drain of waste from ownership of so many provinces. There isn't enough money to build up courts in all conquered provinces.

[jimwinsor]

OK, this raises the whole protectorate oddness to a whole new level!

What is happening is this: I'm Austria. I have this conquered province (Bavaria) which is adjacent to a neutral country (which calls itself Bavaria too...its actually Nuremburg). When Bavaria-in-Nuremburg (BIN) somehow declared its independance, I lost an entire CORPS container and a couple Cavalry units! It would appear that they defected to BIN, and were made neutral BIN forces. Note: they were Austrian units I had built in Austrian conquered Bavaria (ACB) a few turns previously. The "pure" Austrian units I had in that ACB corps were unceremoniously dumped out in nearby Bohemia.

But its get weirder. ACB is Austrian, superimposed by a small Bavarian flag, but I still control it and can still build units there. I build some more corps and cavalry there because it has nice Barracks. BUT as soon as those units are built they DEFECT to BIN! They do that thing when units in the game "teleport;" the flags drift over the map and settle on the destination.

How we got to this point: I'm Austria in an 1805 scenario. I beat the French GA in Styria after several hard fought battles. I go on to siege Bavaria (ie, Munich) and take it. Bavaria goes solid-tan Austrian conquered (but still has the small superimposed Bavarian flag on it).

I then take Nuremburg. Nuremburg stays French-striped (ie, protectorate) but with diagonal tan bands superimposed indicated Austrian occupation (I guess).

Then Prussia takes Berg. It goes Prussia conquered (solid purple), no trace of the Bavarian flag in sight there from then on out.

Then France surrenders to Austria. I get Nuremberg ceded to me in the peace. The peace goes through and Nuremberg is solid-tan Austrian now, but still has a Bavarian flag (cool, I think, I might be able to turn both provinces into Austrian protectorates!).

But no, not to be...Next turn Nuremberg declared its independance (as BIN) and that initial force defection occured as described above. Why did Nuremberg go independant at this point? Frankly I'm not sure; I DID have my Austrian Empire disolved that turn unfortuantely and took that -800 morale hit...but I was very high in morale before that so I was only down to -100 or so...so I don't see how that could have been an Insurrection...and in any case no mention of a status change was in the Political report, and no diplomatic shenanigans were reported to me which could have explained it...

Anyhow...I'm now in this wacky situation where I have this province I can build disployal units, whose first act out of training is to defect across the border to a neutral country.

There are three corps counters and three cavalry sitting in neutral BIN. They represent a FORTUNE in textiles that Austria looms laboriously spun into fine white uniforms and fancy gold-braid epaullettes...and and such I am desperate to recover them intact. So I find myself dumping tons of subsidies into BIN and Charming the pants off them with diplomats, in a race to woo them over (fortunately they hate every other nation -100s too, so my chances are good).

I'm saving a copy of this save file in another folder, in case the designers want to take a look at it. Lemme know and I'll zip it over...thanks!

[Mr. Z]

Hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but as I continue my game, I liberated a conquered Bosnia. Several turns later it asked me to protectorate it. I accpeted. Instead of slashes, it is solid. In the country details it says french protectorate.

That is strange. May be related to the other problem.

If you recall from above, Bavaria province and Nuremberg had been conquered and Bavarian capital assigned to Berg and Bavarian units appeared in Berg, and two other adjacent provinces.

Yes, that is expected. That was the requested change--the capital moves to the latest unconquered province of a multi-province minor. But if this isn't what was called for, we invite other suggestions.

After Berg-Bavaria requested protectorate I checked the country details list and a blue P appeared next to Bavaria. FINALLY I thought I have the opportunity to protecorate a conquered minor (Bavaria province I'm thinking). After clicking the P I was asked what province did I want to attach to Bavaria and it listed 5 or 6 provinces, all of which were currently either french conquered or protectorate. I knew that Berg and the other two adjacent provinces were already protecorates, so I chose Bavaria province thinking since it was conquered it would go to protectorate status. When the turn was over I checked the next turn on the map and Bavaria province is still solid blue.

Ok...let me just make sure I understand...you tried to make the country Bavaria (consisting of the province Berg and others) into a protectorate. You were given a list of other French-controlled countries to join to it. Yes? In that case, so far so good.

Now--you're saying that the province "Bavaria" was on the list? Are you sure it was the province? Or was it just a case of the country "Bavaria" appearing on the list (so you chose to attach it to itself)? I think that might actually have been what happened--in which case that is a bug in the patch that should be fixed. What I suspect is, the province Bavaria is now a non-independent province directly annexed by France, which is why it is still blue.

[Mr. Z]

What is happening is this: I'm Austria. I have this conquered province (Bavaria) which is adjacent to a neutral country (which calls itself Bavaria too...its actually Nuremburg).

So far so good.

When Bavaria-in-Nuremburg (BIN) somehow declared its independance, I lost an entire CORPS container and a couple Cavalry units! It would appear that they defected to BIN, and were made neutral BIN forces. Note: they were Austrian units I had built in Austrian conquered Bavaria (ACB) a few turns previously. The "pure" Austrian units I had in that ACB corps were unceremoniously dumped out in nearby Bohemia.

Ok, so...for the purposes of producing units, it still thinks that former provinces of multi-province minors are a part of that minor...that is useful information, thank you!

BUT as soon as those units are built they DEFECT to BIN! They do that thing when units in the game "teleport;" the flags drift over the map and settle on the destination.

Yeah, if it happened the first time, it will keep happening. Makes sense.

I then take Nuremburg. Nuremburg stays French-striped (ie, protectorate) but with diagonal tan bands superimposed indicated Austrian occupation (I guess).

Yep.

Then Prussia takes Berg. It goes Prussia conquered (solid purple), no trace of the Bavarian flag in sight there from then on out.

Yep. It just took Berg from Bavaria-in-Nuremberg.

I get Nuremberg ceded to me in the peace. The peace goes through and Nuremberg is solid-tan Austrian now, but still has a Bavarian flag (cool, I think, I might be able to turn both provinces into Austrian protectorates!).

Very interesting. Though we know Cede Province has problems in this regard...

But no, not to be...Next turn Nuremberg declared its independance (as BIN) and that initial force defection occured as described above. Why did Nuremberg go independant at this point?

I'm not sure either, but it must have been an Insurrection...unless Eric can think of something else...?

So, two issues:

1) need to make sure status of conquered provinces is correct in terms of producing units
2) why would Bavaria/Nuremberg declare independence without a line in the Political report?

[Mr. Z]

Thinking this over further, here's what I suspect is going on:

1) the province Bavaria somehow isn't completely independent of the country Bavaria. That's why you can produce units, but they "migrate" to Bavaria-in-Nuremberg. We need to make sure this is being broken correctly, which does indeed have to do with the other fix.

2) the Cede Province thing--the province was ceded to you. But I bet it didn't keep track of who controlled the country! Basically I just suspect the Cede Province gizmo in general hasn't been adjusted properly to the new system. That would solve a lot of the weirdness. Again, that has already been uncovered--so fortunately for us, I think these are just further implications of the problems we've already found.

[jimwinsor]

Yeah; there definitely was still some association still with Bavaria the province and Bavaria the country, as shown by the fact that the little Bavarian flag was superimposed over the Austrian one in that province after I conquered it initially.

[carnifex]

Eric: please, for the love of God, drop everything and FIX THE MINOR COUNTRIES, please please please please!!!

Another game abandoned:

My Sweden declares on Denmark. I besiege Zealand, the Russians intervene, I tell them to screw off and take Zealand. Zealand turns blue (Swedish) and becomes a 100% Swedish province.



The Russians surrender to me, and I waste all my surrender points telling Russia to liberate Denmark because I have to specify the four remaining Danish provinces individually. So much for the surrender payoff but anyway...

I re-declare war on Denmark and take Jutland. However, Jutland turns stripey because I'm chasing the Danish capital and obviously Jutland isn't it.



Ok, so I besiege Holstein. After EIGHTEEN MONTHS I take it, but whoa, what's this? Holstein, Trondheim, and Norway turn French (although occupied by me):



I'm now at war with France. No declaration, nothing in the log about Denmark becoming a French protectorate, nothing. Just a nice new war. Which I can't hope to prosecute, Paris being very far away.

So now I have Zealand as 100% Swedish, Jutland as Danish (yet stripey - conquered by me), and the remaining 3 provinces French. What to do? Turn off the game and complain here that's what

To top it all off, if I had taken Zealand before the Russians intervened, ALL OF DENMARK would have become mine in one turn as soon as Zealand fell. All five provinces in one fell swoop. But Denmark became a Russian protectorate, so once I kicked the Russians ass and made them liberate the four Danish provinces, I now had to chase the Danish capital around, which took YEARS. In all of the Napoleonic era there were like two epic sieges, and none of them took longer than a couple of months. Meanwhile I experience sieges of twelve months or more on a regular basis. But I digress...

Ok, now it gets better. I reload from a save and go through all the sieging again. Amazingly enough, this time when I take Holstein the remaining Danish provinces don't turn French. Wheee! But what's this? Jutland is still a Swedish occupied Danish province.



Denmark has no other provinces anywhere and I can't conquer them. All their provinces but Jutland are 100% Swedish and I'm still at war with Denmark and will be forever. Sigh.

Please, just fix the minor countries. Make them behave. And after you do that, please explain in detail what's going on and what's supposed to happen where and when, because no one knows, not even your beta testers.



Edit: I don't want to sound mean or pushy, but I am exasperated. I bought CoG on July 5th, which is going on six months, and the silly minor countries have been broken since day one. They are the single biggest game killer in the system. It's not the overflow text boxes, it's not the howitzer costs, it's not any of the numerous fixes and changes applied since, it's the minor countries. No matter how great any of my games have went, in the end my empire winds up a jumbled mess of provinces that I can or can't protectorize, or conquer, or liberate, or attach, or whatever. They come and go as they please, their armies disappear or don't when conquered, and no one knows anything after all this time. I will wait as long as necessary for the next patch, just please make them go. If you do this one thing for me (or rather us) I promise to STFU and never bitch and moan again [:D]