Best german general of the war

War in Russia is a free update of the old classic, available in our Downloads section.
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by JustAGame:

We now have evidence that Stalin was already moving his own forces to the border for his own invasion in July of 41.
Russian historians have been arguing about this for years, and will go on doing so, as the truth is hard to uncover, and the most important archives in Russia are still not open to the public. In any case, militarily, the Soviets were in no condition to attack in '41. Suggesting Stalin had a different strategic "plan" for Europe that was more offensive-minded beyond the purely defensive one assumed in the west, is one thing, but suggesting the Red Army could attack in '41 is another matter entirely. Their Army wasn't on "alert", it may have been in "offensive" postions, but Red Army doctrine at the time was always an offensive minded one, so the Red Army being in an "offensive posture" doesn't really prove anything. And other facts suggest something else, say for example the fact that German reconnaisance planes were continuosly over-flying the Soviets but they did nothing about it, allegedly by order of Stalin. Now if you were planning an attack, the last thing you would do is allow the defender to get a good look at your forces and their dispostions. As far as the Germans were concerned, they saw no threat from the Soviet forces facing them, and if there was a plan to attack Germany, they never heard of one.

Most importantly though, it is not Stalin's actions that are important here, it is Hitler's actions that are important, as you are trying to imply Hitler acted in "self-defense" when attacking the USSR, and there is no evidence that I've ever heard to substantiate that. In hindsight, we know from what Hitler has said that war with the USSR was inevitable, and the aggressor would be Germany, His comtempt for "Slavs" was almost as bad as his hatred of Jews. Mein Kamphf proves that. Whatever Stalin's plans were, and whatever position, offensive or defensive, the Red Army was in, this war was a war of aggression started by Hitler. What is also in hindsight now, is the extreme unlikelyhood that Germany could win the war in the East, at least after the German advance in '41 was halted before Leningrad and Moscow.


At this point, Hitler is criticized for diverting a large portion of the invading armies away from Moscow.

And rightly critisized. Look at a map, the southern regions are huge and would leave forces there under threat of being out flanked to the north. In fact what we're talking about here is largely what happened in 1942, and that year ended with a Soviet counterattack to the north that destroyed one army at Stalingrad, and forced the Germans to start retreating from the southern Caucases to avoid being cut off. History proves Hitler wrong, he never could have held the south if he allowed the Soviets to hold Leningrad and Moscow to the north.


Had his high command been less stubborn and undisciplined and followed the plan, who knows who would have won.

I know who would have won, the Soviets. Allowing the Soviets to keep the two most important cities to Soviet industry while running off to the south and trying to hold a vast amount of space in a time of mobile warfare against an enemy that was numerically equivalent was folly.


The original plan was genius in all respects.

Hardly.
Phocks
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Arizona

Post by Phocks »

I have to say that first of all, wether or not Stalin intended to attack in July 1941 is irrelevant to Hitler's strategic insight- I have seen quite a few documents relating to the invasion of the USSR, and none, NOT ONE, from the Nazi's mention an anticipated or even possible Soviet offensive in 1941. Considering the numerous measures undertaken by the Soviets to maintain the German "Alliance", it seems unlikely at best, and considering the state of the mechanized corps, it makes a lot more sense that maybe 1942 might have been a different story.

As far as the Fall 1941 campaign (that is, after the border Military Districts were conquered), Hitler decided to attack on three widely seperate axii, and stepped in several time to force operational instructions on Corps/Army commanders. While there are many arguments about the effects of taking Moscow in 1941, it seems obvious, and even more so in hindsight, that the Germans could be guaranteed success on only one axis, with the possibilty of switvhing after the first was reached. In the event, the Soviets in the Ukraine ran away after Kiev fell, and Hitler insisted on pursuing "economic" goals rather than the Red Army. True, the Germans took most of the Ukraine, but at the cost of Moscow and Leningrad. While the Germans were chasing Timoshenko in September and October, Stavka gathered huge reserves at Moscow and then proceeded to punish the Germans when they attempted to resume their offensive in the poor weather of November/December. At this point, Hitler ordered all his units to "Stand fast", which was not necessarily the disaster it would be later in the war against more competent Allied forces.

I think that many people follow Hitler's argument that the Ukraine was a vital industrial and resource area yada yada... If the Soviet Army had been bled to death in defense of Moscow (as both sides expected it to) then the Eastern Ukraine would have been taken in the Spring of 1942 regardless. Instead, the Wermacht was bled white.(although in all fairness to the Soviets, it isn't certain that that wouldn't have been the case even with an earlier Typhoon- the reserve formations available to Stavka in November were immmense).

Finally, an important pont is that Hitler didn't take over the actual planning and conduct of operational matters until after the Soviet Winter counteroffensive was already underway- until then, he interfered by giving orders to individual commanders as he saw fit (aka, Panzergruppe Guderian, please go help encircle Kiev), but on the whole, the Heer ran the war in 1941.

I would like to make one last point- Hitler's "success" with the "Stand Fast" order caused him to use it far more than any commander with a realistic grasp of the situation would have. Stalingrad, anyone?
Damien Fox
"Wherever books are burned men also, in the end, are burned"
JustAGame
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Most importantly though, it is not Stalin's actions that are important here, it is Hitler's actions that are important, as you are trying to imply Hitler acted in "self-defense" when attacking the USSR, and there is no evidence that I've ever heard to substantiate that. In hindsight, we know from what Hitler has said that war with the USSR was inevitable, and the aggressor would be Germany,
It is a leap to say that I was "trying to imply that Hitler acted in 'self-defense' when attacking the USSR". Although, I would love to be the one arguing that Hitler was delusional in an "under seige" mentality. There is a great deal of difference in how I view things and how Hitler viewed them.

Your position assumes that Hitler wanted to rule the Soviet Union for the sake of soothing his meglomania or perhaps you are "trying to imply" that Hitler planned to conquer the world so he could exterminate all the slavs and Jews.
And rightly critisized. Look at a map, the southern regions are huge and would leave forces there under threat of being out flanked to the north. In fact what we're talking about here is largely what happened in 1942, and that year ended with a Soviet counterattack to the north that destroyed one army at Stalingrad, and forced the Germans to start retreating from the southern Caucases to avoid being cut off. History proves Hitler wrong, he never could have held the south if he allowed the Soviets to hold Leningrad and Moscow to the north.
Had his generals continued on to taking Moscow and Leningrad, they would be exposed to a flank from the large armies in the south and possibly have been encircled. My point was that his generals were overzealous such that they delayed the move to the south because they felt Moscow was easy pickings. This delay resulted in less time to secure their position to resume offensives the following year from a stronger position.

As far as the industrial might of Moscow and Leningrad, it is minute compared to the population base and resources of the Ukraine and Crimea. Don't forget that Germany needed those resources as much as they needed to deny them to Stalin.
I know who would have won, the Soviets. Allowing the Soviets to keep the two most important cities to Soviet industry while running off to the south and trying to hold a vast amount of space in a time of mobile warfare against an enemy that was numerically equivalent was folly.
Your omnipotence is either worthy of worship or amusing. For what did happen, we benefit from the value of hindsight. For what didn't happen, I'll resist accepting your word as gospel and consider them as "what-ifs" with the appropriate answer of "who knows".
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
JustAGame
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by RickyB:


The Soviets planned fairly well for the German attack, but were surprised by how poorly their men did along the frontier. They kept massive reserves in their operational echelon, rather than pushing them all up to the border, where Zhukov said after the war they probably wouldn't have survived anyway (maybe hingsight though). This seems to be the result of two wargames held in early January between Zhukov and Pavlov (who just happened to end up the only senior General ordered killed by Stalin after the disasters at the start of the war). In one, Zhukov led the "Blue" (German) forces and was considered the winner in attacking the "Red" forces in a wargame on the entire front. In the second, Zhukov led the "Red" force against Pavlov's "Blue" in the Lvov salient area representing a Soviet attack into Hungary and the Balkans. The only comments I have heard on this wargame is that Stalin was "perturbed by the outcome". At this point, Stalin and Zhukov developed a new plan to defend the USSR, which is the plan carried out above.

This is refreshing. Information without opinion. Thanks. I didn't know this.
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
JustAGame
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by RickyB:

The other thing that makes me discount Stolfi's work is the complete or near-complete lack of primary Soviet sources to support any facts that he presents. He lists huge numbers of German records, interviewed Germans, and used numerous English, American and German books as sources. However, he lists 4 Soviet sources - 1 economic report from the late 50s, a "political military survey" from the early 60s, a book related to Stalingrad, and finally a book by Victor Suvorov. The book by Suvorov is the sole source for Stolfi's claim that Stalin was going to attack in 1941. Suvorov was a Spetsnatz who defected to the West and wrote numerous books at that point. I have not read his books but there is at least some controversy about them. Without seeing what his sources are I would have a very tough time believing Suvorov's claims, and since Stolfi didn't gather any primary source information himself to support this claim of imminent attack, I put no faith in it without some kind of further details.

Stolfi bases almost everything he concludes on German sources, and the German sources must be considered suspect as related to Soviet strength issues as they state themselves time after time the surprise they had in the number of men put into battle by the Soviets. Their operational and strategic intelligence was terrible and yet Stolfi uses this intelligence to support his arguments. Stolfi presents no evidence of Stalin attacking in his book - the evidence would have to come from Suvorov's book on the subject.

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]
On one hand, we have the German sources, Suvurov's research, testimony from liberated Soviet POWs and on the other hand we have Stalin painted as a trusting and honorable ally. I'm more skeptical that Stalin wasn't acting in an uncharacteristic manner for just this one time.

I understand your having reservations, but I am beginning to feel that unless someone finds Stalin's diary and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be authentic and not edited by him at times later than the date of the posts and he wrote that he planned to attack Germany, that the gamers on this board will not accept any other views than those found at Nurenburg.
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by JustAGame:

It is a leap to say that I was "trying to imply that Hitler acted in 'self-defense' when attacking the USSR". Although, I would love to be the one arguing that Hitler was delusional in an "under seige" mentality. There is a great deal of difference in how I view things and how Hitler viewed them.

Ok, I'll say instead that his "impeccable timing" was actually an accident, not from some innate skill of Hitler. Is that better?


Your position assumes that Hitler wanted to rule the Soviet Union for the sake of soothing his meglomania or perhaps you are "trying to imply" that Hitler planned to conquer the world so he could exterminate all the slavs and Jews.

Mein Kamphf pretty much spells out Hitler's vision. What he was going to do with the rest of the world is irrelevent since he had two big obstacles to that goal, those being Britian and the USSR. The USSR had to fall first before any of the rest of his plans could even be considered.


Had his generals continued on to taking Moscow and Leningrad, they would be exposed to a flank from the large armies in the south and possibly have been encircled.

Huh? Those large armies in the south were as bad as the ones the Germans annihilated in the north. I see Army Group South advancing well enough to cover the right flank of the push to Moscow. A Stalino-Kharkov-Kursk line would be good enough. Once you achieve this send your panzers north to help with the taking of Moscow.


My point was that his generals were overzealous such that they delayed the move to the south because they felt Moscow was easy pickings. This delay resulted in less time to secure their position to resume offensives the following year from a stronger
position.

My point is a southern strategy in 1941 leaves Leningrad and Moscow and quite a bit of Soviet territory west of those cities in Soviet hands. If those northern forces aren't destroyed they can launch attacks to the south towards Stalino to cut off German forces further south. Holding all that territory means spreading German infantry real thin (again, just like '42). The only issue is how much oil is denied to the Soviets, but the USSR had oil further east, and I imagine the Western Allies would have helped with that if necessary, but more importantly, Germany's southern flank would be exposed to Western Allied attack coming from the British colonies to the south (Persia). Germany would end up with large front that forces them to spread their forces out. This makes attacks by Soviet troops more likely to be successfull, unlike the historical situation where Germany had a relatively short front (Leningrad to Stalino) and thus had its forces concentrated more, causing more Soviet attacks to fail.


As far as the industrial might of Moscow and Leningrad, it is minute compared to the population base and resources of the Ukraine and Crimea. Don't forget that Germany needed those resources as much as they needed to deny them to Stalin.

"minute" is an exaggeration, they were very important. The problem is how do you hold all that territory when facing the Soviets from the East, the Western Allies from the South, and partisans from within?


Your omnipotence is either worthy of worship or amusing. For what did happen, we benefit from the value of hindsight. For what didn't happen, I'll resist accepting your word as gospel and consider them as "what-ifs" with the appropriate answer of "who knows".

Turn this on your own arguments. Your attempt to show Hitler as a competent military commander is a little amusing too, and I also will not accept your word as gospel in this matter since you are also arguing about something that didn't happen, thus we have no advantage in hindsight.
JustAGame
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Turn this on your own arguments. Your attempt to show Hitler as a competent military commander is a little amusing too, and I also will not accept your word as gospel in this matter since you are also arguing about something that didn't happen, thus we have no advantage in hindsight.
All I have to say to that is:
I know who would have won, the Soviets.
by Ed Cogburn
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
Yogi Yohan
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Yogi Yohan »

About Hitler as a commander, I'd say that (while he was still sane) he possesed the qualities to make an outstanding military commander except one: proper training.

Since the Generals he ordered around DID posess such training, they contempted his military ability and not always did as they were told - sometimes (especially late in the war) to the benefit of the German Army, but sometimes with disastrous consequences, becasue quite a few times, Hitler WAS right.

I won't go into the debate on Moscow vs Ucraine this time, but the fact remains that the Eastern strategy Hitler, the Commander-In-Chief of the Wehrmacht, finally did choose was sabotaged by his Generals.

At AG Centre, Bock and Guderian tried in every way to force the hand of the OKH much in the same manner they had done in France the previous year with so brilliant results. Instead of preparing for the Ucraine campaign by resting and refitting the troops (the Panzers especially needed an overhaul) they kept the troops ready for a continued advance on Moscow with the result that a lot of time was lost.

Later, at AG North, Leeb used the Panzer Divisions he was supposed to send to AG Centre for the Moscow offensive to try to storm Leningrad, contrary to orders. This abortive attack and the following rest and refit required for the mangled Panzer Divisions delayed the Moscow offensive even further.
moni kerr
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Post by moni kerr »

RE: Suvorov

In an entirely different forum (onwar.com) his research was thoroughly trashed by some Russian members of the forum. He apparently has no credibility as an historian, and is more suited to the althistory crowd.

I favour the "take Moscow first' over the 'take Ukraine first' strategy. Capturing Moscow completely disrupts Soviet communications. Ukraine would fall afterwards as it would be too difficult for the Red Army to conduct operations from there.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin
Don Shafer
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Pocahontas, IA USA

Post by Don Shafer »

Originally posted by Nemesis:
What did Churchill say about Rommel during war in Africa? "Rommel, Rommel, Rommel! What else matters besides defeating him?". That's translated from finnish, so it's not propably accurate quote.

Yes, Rommel was a brilliant general, but more that that, he was a real gentleman who treated his enemies with respect. And he cared for his troops. He usually led the battle close to the front-lines, not from a distand command-post far away.

He was successfull during the assault on France. He insisted that SS-troops committing atrocities on civilians should be punished, but of course, his demands were ignored.

When he arrived in Africa, axis forces (mostly italians) were losing big time. He changed the tide of that battle. That was not a small feat (we all know the quality of italian army in WW2).

And he didn't like Hitler. He was involved (indirectly) in Hitlers assassination. That's why he was forced to kill himself.

Inaccurate. His Chief of Staff tried to get him involved, but Rommel refused. He was aware of the plot but did nothing to aid it. Also the facts around his death are still unclear. He was picked up, after that no one is clear as to whether or not he shot himself or was shot. The unofficial rumor was that he was offered to commit suicide or be executed. It is assumed that he committed suicide.

Sure, there might be generals that were better at waging war, but none was better as a human being as Rommel was. And for that, he get's my respect. I don't know that was he the "best" german general, but he was greatest german general.
This message posted by permission of and in accordance with the regulations as mandated by our self-appointed High Lord and Master Ed Cogburn.
All hail the Dictator of War in Russia etiquette and morality!
His is a superior intellect and with hi
Don Shafer
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Pocahontas, IA USA

Post by Don Shafer »

My choice for best German General would have to be General Oskar Meyer. He invented the frankfurter.
This message posted by permission of and in accordance with the regulations as mandated by our self-appointed High Lord and Master Ed Cogburn.
All hail the Dictator of War in Russia etiquette and morality!
His is a superior intellect and with hi
JustAGame
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Post by JustAGame »

Originally posted by moni kerr:
[QB]RE: Suvorov

In an entirely different forum (onwar.com) his research was thoroughly trashed by some Russian members of the forum. He apparently has no credibility as an historian, and is more suited to the althistory crowd.
[QB]
Hmm. I wonder what else is more suited to the althistory crowd as opposed to the objectively educated Rusians. I'm not informed enough about Suvorov to claim to be an expert on his credentials, but I hardly find Russians online as credible critics of historians.

By the way, what is the "althistory crowd"? That name has a stigma to it that conjures a relationship to fantasy.

Was it the "althistory crowd" that pointed out that imperial colonialism was not really a case of the civilized nations saving the savage natives from their imminent damnation?

Was it the "althistory crowd" that pointed it out that Americans indians were not the soulless bushwacker cowards who were bent on killing the white man for the fun of it?

Was it the "althistory crowd" that de-Stalinized, de-kruschevized and de-Breznevized Soviet history.

Was it the "althistory crowd" that revealed the true nature of the Holy Crusades?

A revealing truth about the study of history is that one learns a great deal about societies and cultures by looking at their interpretations of history at any given time. A classic example is the "history" of the American Civil War, War Between The States, The War of Northern Aggression or whatever your biases may fancy. Depending on the source, it was a war over slavery, a war over the States rights versus federal authority, a war to preserve the Union, or, again, whatever your biases may fancy. A classroom example of this is how the "history" of the following "Reconstruction" period is told at different time. One could look at the turn of the century film "Birth of a Nation", the 1930's movie Gone With The Wind and the more recent book by Ted Tunnel and see very dramatic differences in how the history of the same time period was believed to have happened at different times periods.

This thread began with Kuniworth saying
I would say Manstein. What do you think?
The thread was opened with an opening to free thinking, but somewhere along the line became an "I'm right and you're wrong and only an idiot could reach a different conclusion than I have" type of debate where presented evidence that is contradictory to a chosen opinion is filtered out or dismissed.

While I believe Hitler was far more capable than the vast majority of you, if I were to argue that Moscow was a more important "immediate" goal, then I would argue on a basis that is still largely different than what I've seen here so far. Besides being the epicenter for transportation and communication lines, it was the nerve center of a police state of diverse cultures and otherwise unrelated identities held together by power and authority. Maintaining that the city's industrial capacity was inconsequential in the grand scheme of choices, all production was managed from Moscow. Additionally, and more importantly, one could easily argue that by cutting off that head, the rest of the Soviet Union would not only be easier to conquer, but would have likely been embroiled in many rebellions by the numerous ethnic regions. It has been conservatively estimated that if the Germans hadn't lined the Ukranians in ditches and executed them, that as many as a half million would have volunteered to fight against the Russians.
Will our dirty little war against Yugoslavia be known in the future as the "War of the Blue Dress"?
Lokioftheaesir
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Oz
Contact:

Post by Lokioftheaesir »

Originally posted by JustAGame:


The thread was opened with an opening to free thinking, but somewhere along the line became an "I'm right and you're wrong and only an idiot could reach a different conclusion than I have" type of debate where presented evidence that is contradictory to a chosen opinion is filtered out or dismissed.

While I believe Hitler was far more capable than the vast majority of you, if I were to argue that Moscow was a more important "immediate" goal, then I would argue on a basis that is still largely different than what I've seen here so far. Besides being the epicenter for transportation and communication lines, it was the nerve center of a police state of diverse cultures and otherwise unrelated identities held together by power and authority. Maintaining that the city's industrial capacity was inconsequential in the grand scheme of choices, all production was managed from Moscow. Additionally, and more importantly, one could easily argue that by cutting off that head, the rest of the Soviet Union would not only be easier to conquer, but would have likely been embroiled in many rebellions by the numerous ethnic regions. It has been conservatively estimated that if the Germans hadn't lined the Ukranians in ditches and executed them, that as many as a half million would have volunteered to fight against the Russians.
Just a game

Alt history is just a matter of 'what if!!
Yes in a way it is fantasy but i can see the appeal.(i read a lot of fiction and also non fiction) Many are smart enough to know that history as we learn it is scewed and many more are not. I am one of those who reject authority history and persue my own trail to the 'satisfactory truth' of the matter.
Anyone with a brain and some common sense will reject pretty much straight away the official version of events as they are created from the desire for states to seem to be in the right even though all states hide the despicable acts of 'their' forces that are hidden by omission.
The Matrix board on WIR is about a game but the game is about real life.The germans slaughtered millions. The Soviets under Stalin slaughtered tens of millions(as did the chinese latter) and even the pristine US and UK committed their little slaughters to be hidden between lines.

This game is about war and war is a filthy thing, there is no honour or just causes. There is only power.

Nick

PS. Please contribute more. I await your comments.

[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Mist
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:00 am
Location: Russia, Moscow

Post by Mist »

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
The germans slaughtered millions. The Soviets under Stalin slaughtered tens of millions(as did the chinese latter) and even the pristine US and UK committed their little slaughters to be hidden between lines.
reading this thread with much interest and regreat that I have no time to step in discussion(which continues IMHO from the very creation of this board). But I can't miss your words without reaction.
Not that I am fan of Stalin... but did you mean that Soviets slaughtered more(tens millions) peacefull civilans during the war then Germans(millions)? Certanly every single living sould is precious. But please could you be more precise?
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

JustAGame:
All I have to say to that is:
You quoting me:
I know who would have won, the Soviets.

I simply stated my opinion, without any insults. You seem to have forgotten your original remark:
JustAGame:
Your omnipotence is either worthy of worship or amusing
[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
[QB]About Hitler as a commander, I'd say that (while he was still sane) he possesed the qualities to make an outstanding military commander except one: proper training.
[/b]

Some of his Generals would have said much more than this, and none of it nice. Unfortunately, by making this a Hitler-versus-his-generals thing, you automatically discount what they had to say.

Since I maintain the opinion that a Southern strategy in '41 would ultimatly lose the war for the Germans, I believe Hitler was very wrong on this point, and his generals largely agreed with that, thus their resistence to his orders shifting units to the south instead of moving on Moscow, and moving other units around willy-nilly as he reprioritized the objectives every other week.

[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by JustAGame:
but I hardly find Russians online as credible critics of historians.

I happen to know a very smart Russian with an open mind as to the history of the war in the east. He's a member of the unpaid beta testing group working on WiR, so you can have an improved game to play. I hope he doesn't read this insult.

Your doin' just great JustAGame, considering how many people you've insulted in the 39 posts from you so far, at this rate you'll manage to insult everyone here within a month.

[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]
Ed Cogburn
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
Contact:

Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Mist:
did you mean that Soviets slaughtered more(tens millions) peacefull civilans during the war then Germans(millions)?

Depends on what you count, although the difference is definitey not tens of millions versus millions. If you add the Soviet prisoners sent to gulags after the war because they "allowed" themselves to be captured, or the millions of ethnic Soviets sent to Siberia because some of them may have, or may not have, collaborated with the Germans, or the German POWs who never made it back to Germany alive, or the atrocities against Eastern European peoples (Poland for example), or the atrocities committed by Soviet partisans against Soviet civilians during the war, all these numbers start to add up, but this requires including the 3 or 4 years after the war, and the purges in the late '30s, not just '41 to '45.

I saw a Russian documentary on Stalin, just after the breakup of the USSR, and their conclusion was Stalin was responsible for the deaths of more Soviets than the Germans were.
Don Shafer
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Pocahontas, IA USA

Post by Don Shafer »

You forgot to add in the atrocities committed by Stalin on the Kalmuks after Operation Uranus. Stalin felt that these people aided the German Army on it's advance on Stalingrad (despite the fact that they actually fought a guerilla type war against the Germans). If they hadn't fled into other countries, Stalin would have decimated them into oblivion. From what I have read, the death toll from this action alone reached over a million.
Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Depends on what you count, although the difference is definitey not tens of millions versus millions. If you add the Soviet prisoners sent to gulags after the war because they "allowed" themselves to be captured, or the millions of ethnic Soviets sent to Siberia because some of them may have, or may not have, collaborated with the Germans, or the German POWs who never made it back to Germany alive, or the atrocities against Eastern European peoples (Poland for example), or the atrocities committed by Soviet partisans against Soviet civilians during the war, all these numbers start to add up, but this requires including the 3 or 4 years after the war, and the purges in the late '30s, not just '41 to '45.

I saw a Russian documentary on Stalin, just after the breakup of the USSR, and their conclusion was Stalin was responsible for the deaths of more Soviets than the Germans were.
This message posted by permission of and in accordance with the regulations as mandated by our self-appointed High Lord and Master Ed Cogburn.
All hail the Dictator of War in Russia etiquette and morality!
His is a superior intellect and with hi
Don Shafer
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Pocahontas, IA USA

Post by Don Shafer »

Wow, I should check this board more often. This is good. Just where do you stand on the Holocaust issue?
Originally posted by JustAGame:


I'm not a fan of Hitler, but history shouldn't be so clouded by propaganda.

For decades, Hitler has been painted as an insane incompetant. Less impassioned and more objective study reveals a very different man. It is still easy to despise the man, but judging his character is altogether different from evaluating his abilities.

Since Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union is so often cited as a case study for his incompetence, I will challenge that myth.

First of all, the timing was impeccable. We now have evidence that Stalin was already moving his own forces to the border for his own invasion in July of 41. Within a matter of a few weeks, 8 out of 9 Soviet armies were destroyed and nearly 1 million Soviet troops had been killed, wounded or captured compared to about 54,000 German casualties.

At this point, Hitler is criticized for diverting a large portion of the invading armies away from Moscow. Hitler's original plan was secure a fortress Europe to the Volga. In that pursuit, his plan was to capture the economic and population rich lands for the benefit of Germany and to deny Stalin of them. His generals were slow to divert south as the plan called because they believed Moscow to be a greater prize.

While the decades have written a history that says Germany could've won the war in 1941 if Hitler hadn't diverted away from the disorganized defenders of Moscow, there is a great deal of assumption. We have always assumed that was the goal, yet evidence shows that Hitler was more interested in pushing the border such that Germany would be beyond Soviet bomber range and Stalin would be without the resources west of the Volga. We also assume that the Soviets would've collapsed without Moscow which is a stretch at the very least. Even if Army Group Center continued on to Moscow, what of the Soviet armies to the east and north? The likelihood of being flanked and encircled was ever present.

His strategy for heading south was also intended to encourage Iran in resisting an imminent invasion from Anglo and Soviet forces.

Had his high command been less stubborn and undisciplined and followed the plan, who knows who would have won. The original plan was genius in all respects.
The German High Command stubborn? (Yes) Undisciplined? (Hardly) The original plan of taking Leningrad and Moscow might of bordered on genius, if Hitler would have stuck to it. He himself was responsible for ordering Guderian to the south to help take Kiev, when in fact Guderian was pressing to head north and take Moscow. Of course, taking Moscow wouldn't have guaranteed a victory, since Napoleon and his Grand Armee found out, it's a long cold walk back to Germany.
This message posted by permission of and in accordance with the regulations as mandated by our self-appointed High Lord and Master Ed Cogburn.
All hail the Dictator of War in Russia etiquette and morality!
His is a superior intellect and with hi
Post Reply

Return to “War In Russia: The Matrix Edition”