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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Chimera:

In version 1, a corps could enjoy special supply repeatedly. Now THAT was too much, but personally I feel that the current version's tone-down to once per corps/week is OK.


Hi Chimera,

Yes, I agree. One Special Supply per week, from one HQ, is good.

Originally posted by Chimera:
Incidentally, I was kinda wondering how Arnaud decides what to modify/improve and if so, by how much since I don't believe I've ever seen him post on this forum.

I don't know how he catagorizes bugs and works on some but not others. I know he's avoiding AI bugs for now, but after that I don't know. Rick may know more.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by BrickReid:

It absolutely makes sense. You take your supplies from where you've got them and place them where you need them. It was commonly done by all parties in the war.


Funny, I've never heard of a combat unit getting supply from 2 different chains of command.


AND 2: Generally, yes it would. Until something interrupted one of them.


If this were true, we would have been routinely using multiple HQs for a single combat unit since modern warfare first began.


False argument, never happened. But hypothetically, yes, it would.


I believe "never happened" proves my point.


I think the mod that made it so a unit can only be special supplied 1 time is an unrealistic restriction. (It also creates the need to use the transfer and second supply exploit.)


I see, we take away one exploit of a bug and you switch to another.

Why did Gary not make it possible to for multiple HQs to support a combat unit, if this was just about supply?


It gains you a realistic ability that was used extensively by all armies of the conflict.
And, the use of HQ mules are simply a variation of managing the war's supply system by using ingenuity. Think of them aa not combat HQs anymore, but as Logistical HQs. A legitimate usage in my opinion. The Americans used logistical commands extensively. They had to considering how far they were from the front lines and all the supplies that were required to conduct OPERATIONS.


You may know a lot about supply but you don't seem to realize that multiple major HQ structures don't share combat units. I have never heard of the military, with the need for a clear chain of command and control, co-managing units that you call "realistic". Redundent logistical systems also strike me as grossly inefficient.

I simply must remain in disagreement with your assertion that special supply should be a common weekly routine that involves a bizzare use of headquarters units.

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>
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Post by BrickReid »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



You may know a lot about supply but you don't seem to realize that multiple major HQ structures don't share combat units. I have never heard of the military, with the need for a clear chain of command and control, co-managing units that you call "realistic". Redundent logistical systems also strike me as grossly inefficient.

I simply must remain in disagreement with your assertion that special supply should be a common weekly routine that involves a bizzare use of headquarters units.

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]


I don't see it as sharing combat units. I see it as sharing supplies. The combat unit takes no commands from the mule, merely supplies. Further, they are not redundant logistical systems. They are HQs with command capabilities that are being utilized in a manner that a armchair quarterback, game player, believes may better utilize the supply system in a game that is intended to allow strategy wargame history enthusiasts some flexibility in recreating WWII to see if they can alter history using approximately the same resources as were present in the conflict. Now read it again. Think about it. Ok. Next. To me Special Supply is more a reserve of supplies that are available to an HQ to focus resources to where they are most needed. This seems to me a more realistic interpretation when you consider the original game had NO limitations on its usage. Why, you ask? Because they are meant to be used. "Bizzarre"? No. Outside of the box ingenuity? Yes! Ingenuity and out of the box thinking is what wins wars, my friend. Real wars.
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Post by BrickReid »

BTW: If we continue to make responses to quotes that are responses to a quote, I'm going to have to start taking medication. Its making me dizzy. In one of your quotes you quote me as saying a "Generally..." statement and another where I say "...hypothetically...". In both of those I was referring to your examples that were completely off the mark and missed the point but that I decided to respond to in their own right. It may have been more clear if the full quote and the quote THEY were responding to were included.

I find it hard to believe you don't think HQs, Corps, and divisions never transfer supplies between themselves. Besides, I made my point in the last post about the nature of the HQ mules I believe they represent and it makes your point moot.

"never happened" does not prove your point in the slightest.

Taking away multiple special supply ability was, IMO, the farthest thing away from an exploit that you'll find in this game. What was taken away was the flexibility of the game that allowed HQs to do with their reserve supplies as they wished. Oh, and, HE DID MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR OTHER HQs TO PROVIDE SUPPLIES TO OTHER UNITS. Otherwise Grigsby would have made it so that a unit would only be allowed to change HQs one time in a turn. Oops, gave the development team an idea with that one. Once again, this is about flexibility to conduct the war as the game player sees fit using realistically possible methods. (Don't bother saying it is not realistically possible just because it didn't exactly happen that way - Cause it could have if they had wanted it to.)
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Post by Svar »

Originally posted by Josan:



BTW I dont know yet how to use the airlift mission with no making a unrealistic movement. Can I airlift if the corps stay in supply 0 but no move?
or only I can with supply 1? or when ? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Josan.

Josan,

I can only tell you what I do. I don't purposely move units into positions where they will be in a zero supply level the next turn. However when it does happen, I don't move it until it is back in supply mainly because it will lose men and equipment if it does. I use the Ju-52s to supply any unit that is in need including any that may be in a zero supply state. After all there is absolutely no purpose for the Ju-52 except air transport, see page 20 of the manual.

Svar

PS. It is very rare that I use any A/C for air transport except the Ju-52s.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by BrickReid:
They are HQs with command capabilities that are being utilized in a manner that a armchair quarterback, game player,


If this was really true, every military in the world would be doing this. They're not because it doesn't make sense.

If you want to redefine what an HQ is in WiR then you can obviously "win" this argument. You say its supplies, I say its more than that, and that is where we're at.


believes may better utilize the supply system in a game that is intended to allow strategy wargame history enthusiasts some flexibility in recreating WWII to see if they can alter history using approximately the same resources as were present in the conflict. Now read it again. Think about it. Ok. Next. To me Special Supply is more a reserve of supplies that are available to an HQ to focus resources to where they are most needed. This seems to me a more realistic interpretation when you consider the original game had NO limitations on its usage. Why, you ask? Because they are meant to be used. "Bizzarre"? No. Outside of the box ingenuity? Yes! Ingenuity and out of the box thinking is what wins wars, my friend. Real wars.


My friend, if you really mean the "allow strategy wargame history enthusiasts some flexibility in recreating WWII" then we've got an intractible problem. You see, "strategy wargame history enthusiasts" is exactly what I am. I favor historical accuracy, but what you're claiming doesn't strike me as anywhere close to historical accuracy. To me this is far from being "flexible", instead its a bug that you are exploiting, and it certainly isn't recreating WWII, because combat units are not supplied by duplicate logistical systems. In any military anywhere, I'm sure.

Beyond this I'm just repeating myself. Play the game the way you think it should be played, the way Gary meant it to be played, which you claim to know, and I'll play it my way using a little common sense.

So until the next argument, have a nice one.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Post by Josans »

Originally posted by Svar:


Josan,

I can only tell you what I do. I don't purposely move units into positions where they will be in a zero supply level the next turn. However when it does happen, I don't move it until it is back in supply mainly because it will lose men and equipment if it does. I use the Ju-52s to supply any unit that is in need including any that may be in a zero supply state. After all there is absolutely no purpose for the Ju-52 except air transport, see page 20 of the manual.

Svar

PS. It is very rare that I use any A/C for air transport except the Ju-52s.


Thank you Svar. I will do the same if you dont copyrighted <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> But is still unrealistic move a corps to a key hex ( cut supply) even stay in supply 0 next turn? There are many times when you manages to get a breaktrough that you can restore the supply to the unsupplied corps in the next turn... In fact is a risk to the player send a corps behind enemy lines with no airsupply now.Can be destroyed more easily.

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Post by PMCN »

Josan writes...
There are many things that only the guys that created the game knows.With the lack of a more accurate supply system for me special supply is a valid action and always will do it. Is the key of the game and its juice. But Im not sure that resupply two times an unit are not an error of the engine.
Well given that the rules say you can only do so once anything which allows you to do it twice is illegal. I'm afraid there is no way around that, unless the rules as listed in the manual are wrong.
Josan writes...
I think this not changes in the new version (correct?) so a personal agreement between the players (house rules) will be need.
I agree 100%. I had not realised how many stupid things could be done with this game until I played PBEM. I still can't get over the number of them that there are.
Josan writes...
BTW I dont know yet how to use the airlift mission with no making a unrealistic movement. Can I airlift if the corps stay in supply 0 but no move?
or only I can with supply 1? or when ?
On a brighter note here I can help you. The airlift operation will raise the readiness level of your isolated Korps. The important number is 20%, if the Korps has at least that readiness than no loss of equipment/troops will occur. However, you can only move a unit in 0 supply 2 hexs (or is it 1 now) and that movment will cause a loss of readiness which could be bad. You can continue to airlift to an isolated Korps for as long as you want. The airlift operation will not change the supply level of the hex however, so the unit will recieve no new supplies beyond what you airlift in. I have used this when I outran my supply lines during the loss of blitzkreig supply or when a rail line was slow to convert. The current rules are much better than the orginal rules or the replacement, in my opinion anyway. I hope I answered your question.
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Post by Josans »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:


On a brighter note here I can help you. The airlift operation will raise the readiness level of your isolated Korps. The important number is 20%, if the Korps has at least that readiness than no loss of equipment/troops will occur. However, you can only move a unit in 0 supply 2 hexs (or is it 1 now) and that movment will cause a loss of readiness which could be bad. You can continue to airlift to an isolated Korps for as long as you want. The airlift operation will not change the supply level of the hex however, so the unit will recieve no new supplies beyond what you airlift in. I have used this when I outran my supply lines during the loss of blitzkreig supply or when a rail line was slow to convert. The current rules are much better than the orginal rules or the replacement, in my opinion anyway. I hope I answered your question.


Thank you Paul for the information but it seems that airsupply behind the enemy lines as long as I want is unrealistic so its an exploit if I do that. Or maybe is unrealistic to move the corps behind enemy lines knowing that will stay unsupplied in the next turn ?

Really Im very confused <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Josan " the <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> player "
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Josan:

Thank you Paul for the information but it seems that airsupply behind the enemy lines as long as I want is unrealistic so its an exploit if I do that. Or maybe is unrealistic to move the corps behind enemy lines knowing that will stay unsupplied in the next turn ?


As it is now, the corps is fine if it keeps its readiness high enough to avoid equipment losses. It can remain behind enemy lines maintaining its strength indefinitely. This is quite easy to do unfortunately, perhaps too easy. I can keep a panzer corps supported indefinitely using 4 bomber groups and the Ju-52 groups, and most of these groups were not at full strength. Worse, the unit does not suffer attrition losses while moving behind the lines, again as long as you keep the readiness above 20% or 30%. They may get into trouble if they move and attack, or get attacked heavily, but I think 1 or 2 more bomber groups flying supplies in could allow the corps to fight and move without penalty indefinitely.

Many do not like my solution to this, and you already know what I think from the last time this issue came up, so you're just going to have to listen to what everyone says and then make up your own mind. If you think this is unrealistic as, of course, I do, then a "house rule" with your next opponent outlawing this action would be a reasonable idea.

That is just my opinion though Josan, play the game the way you think it should be played.

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>
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Post by BrickReid »

Without trying to start a new argument. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> Why is this an issue? Is it that difficult for a player to simply go and kill the marauding unit? Or at least surround it so it can no longer move and then bring in a killing force? Sherman's march was a case of a large force operating behind enemy lines without ANY supply line. Stalingrad was a failed attempt at the same thing. I would propose that; had not the Soviets brought in airpower to stop the airdrop resupplies, and also engaged in a massive offensive on Sixth Army, they would have been able to operate in a fashion on limited food and ammo rationing. So, to me the problem is one of the defender taking care of his backfield as I believe a Corps can be supported, provided it is not engaged in large scale combat and the supply a/c are not being intercepted.
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Post by Svar »

Originally posted by BrickReid:
Without trying to start a new argument. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> Why is this an issue? Is it that difficult for a player to simply go and kill the marauding unit? Or at least surround it so it can no longer move and then bring in a killing force? Sherman's march was a case of a large force operating behind enemy lines without ANY supply line. Stalingrad was a failed attempt at the same thing. I would propose that; had not the Soviets brought in airpower to stop the airdrop resupplies, and also engaged in a massive offensive on Sixth Army, they would have been able to operate in a fashion on limited food and ammo rationing. So, to me the problem is one of the defender taking care of his backfield as I believe a Corps can be supported, provided it is not engaged in large scale combat and the supply a/c are not being intercepted.
BrickReid,

Check out this thread.
http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000468

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Post by PMCN »

So far as supplying a unit behind the lines goes there is nothing historically inaccurate about it. The germans during the winter of 42 managed to keep several isolated garrisions supplied...althougth they failed miserably at Stalingrad. But there was a large number of reasons for that.

In game terms it is not unreasonable. Also an isolated unit which moves does not convert ground nor does it last very long in combat. I realy doubt you could keep a panzer korps that was moving and fighting above 20% readiness no matter how many air supplies you throw at it. I have used the air resupply when I have outrun my supply lines and I have not seen a tremendous advantage to it. It is usefull only if the unit resupplied stays put. So Josan if you use it you are doing the proper thing but it is up to you what you do with the isolated unit. My advice would be to lager up and break thru to it with your other forces (or move it towards your lines). Going on a rampage behind enemy lines is going to result in you loosing that force and the stronger it is to begin with the worse you will be...as it is very hard to keep a Pz Korp supplied since the number of attached units dilutes the effect of the supplies. I think the current rules are pretty realistic, certainly better than what was done in the past.
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Post by Josans »

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



As it is now, the corps is fine if it keeps its readiness high enough to avoid equipment losses. It can remain behind enemy lines maintaining its strength indefinitely. This is quite easy to do unfortunately, perhaps too easy. I can keep a panzer corps supported indefinitely using 4 bomber groups and the Ju-52 groups, and most of these groups were not at full strength. Worse, the unit does not suffer attrition losses while moving behind the lines, again as long as you keep the readiness above 20% or 30%. They may get into trouble if they move and attack, or get attacked heavily, but I think 1 or 2 more bomber groups flying supplies in could allow the corps to fight and move without penalty indefinitely.

Many do not like my solution to this, and you already know what I think from the last time this issue came up, so you're just going to have to listen to what everyone says and then make up your own mind. If you think this is unrealistic as, of course, I do, then a "house rule" with your next opponent outlawing this action would be a reasonable idea.

That is just my opinion though Josan, play the game the way you think it should be played.

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Ed,

Is clear for me that airsupply a corps indefinitely behind the lines are not realistic so I will dont make it. But the question is if realistic send a panzer corps behind the lines to make encirclements or cut supply even known will be in supply 0 next turn. As I stated before there are many times in the game that you send a corps to the enemy rear and you can restore the supply in the next turn ( or 2 if soviets are disturbing near). Also you can send the corps and in the next turn come back to your lines.
Im very interesting to know historical group thinks about this movements. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Thank you in advance.

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Post by Josans »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
So far as supplying a unit behind the lines goes there is nothing historically inaccurate about it. The germans during the winter of 42 managed to keep several isolated garrisions supplied...althougth they failed miserably at Stalingrad. But there was a large number of reasons for that.

In game terms it is not unreasonable. Also an isolated unit which moves does not convert ground nor does it last very long in combat. I realy doubt you could keep a panzer korps that was moving and fighting above 20% readiness no matter how many air supplies you throw at it. I have used the air resupply when I have outrun my supply lines and I have not seen a tremendous advantage to it. It is usefull only if the unit resupplied stays put. So Josan if you use it you are doing the proper thing but it is up to you what you do with the isolated unit. My advice would be to lager up and break thru to it with your other forces (or move it towards your lines). Going on a rampage behind enemy lines is going to result in you loosing that force and the stronger it is to begin with the worse you will be...as it is very hard to keep a Pz Korp supplied since the number of attached units dilutes the effect of the supplies. I think the current rules are pretty realistic, certainly better than what was done in the past.

Paul its possible to maintain a strong panzer corps behind the lines moving and fighting with airsupply only. I do that. The 4th JU-52 air goups (after 5) can raise the readiness in 40-50%. If you add bombers to airsupply (with He-177) you can raise again to arrive 70-80% of readiness. The soviets has too much problems to stop this.

Always I think that the lastest version is better than the prior one <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> so I hope the very delayed new version will be the best.

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Post by PMCN »

Josan,
If you devote over 1000 planes to keeping a Korps in supply then yes indeed you can keep it a reasonable supply state. There is nothing historically wrong with that. But if you have He-177 then this is 42 or 43 and for that I have no idea what the soviet side is doing. That isolated Korps is dead meat period, it should be surrounded and destroyed inside of 2 weeks. He can also surround it with sufficient fighters that he can slaughter the inbound cargo planes. Plus in the combat phase of his turn it should be weak, and it should not survive the counter attacks as the soviets should hit it with 6 armys, plus it should not get any resupply so it will get progressively weaker.

It does you no good to have that unit there unless it is occuping a critical city or something. It doesn't do anything but block supply in the hex it is sitting in and it can only move 2 hexs. So what are you gaining for the diversion of a major part of your airforce? It is hardly on a rampage... Unless I am misunderstanding the situation greatly I would just consider that you have provided an idea training unit for the russians.
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Post by Josans »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
Josan,
If you devote over 1000 planes to keeping a Korps in supply then yes indeed you can keep it a reasonable supply state. There is nothing historically wrong with that. But if you have He-177 then this is 42 or 43 and for that I have no idea what the soviet side is doing. That isolated Korps is dead meat period, it should be surrounded and destroyed inside of 2 weeks. He can also surround it with sufficient fighters that he can slaughter the inbound cargo planes. Plus in the combat phase of his turn it should be weak, and it should not survive the counter attacks as the soviets should hit it with 6 armys, plus it should not get any resupply so it will get progressively weaker.

It does you no good to have that unit there unless it is occuping a critical city or something. It doesn't do anything but block supply in the hex it is sitting in and it can only move 2 hexs. So what are you gaining for the diversion of a major part of your airforce? It is hardly on a rampage... Unless I am misunderstanding the situation greatly I would just consider that you have provided an idea training unit for the russians.

Really you make me happy if this is historical <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

In the other case dont think is easy to crush the korps. Always I have seen the soviets with problems to face this new threat. I suppose that nobody have maked this against you but I can guarantee you that is effective.

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Post by Mist »

I also do not see keeping static panzer korps supplied for limited period of time ahistorical.
CAn't say that this exact thing was done during WWII but Demyansk group held several weeks in 41-42 winter while being encircled until Germans chopped corridor for ground supplies. Though it did not include full strength panzer korpses.
However moving panzer korps is very different thing and it is much harder to supply because of difficulties with delievering supplies to constantly changing positions and no "permanent" airfields available. It was heavily discussed in the thread about Caucasus attack(see link several posts above) and general opinion was more tending to impossibility of adequate air-supplying of moving panzer korps.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
So far as supplying a unit behind the lines goes there is nothing historically inaccurate about it. The germans during the winter of 42 managed to keep several isolated garrisions supplied...althougth they failed miserably at Stalingrad. But there was a large number of reasons for that.


Aaarrrrrgggghhh! Not this again! Please Paul, read the thread Svar pointed to before making a statement like this.
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Post by Ed Cogburn »

Originally posted by Josan:
But the question is if realistic send a panzer corps behind the lines to make encirclements or cut supply even known will be in supply 0 next turn. As I stated before there are many times in the game that you send a corps to the enemy rear and you can restore the supply in the next turn ( or 2 if soviets are disturbing near). Also you can send the corps and in the next turn come back to your lines.


This is fine. A panzer corps that stays out of supply for a short period of time is historical. Usually they just waited until supplies caught up to them, but if its just one turn then its reasonable for them to be able to move and attack in that turn too.

The game doesn't handle this well, though (IMO). A unit moving and fighting in that turn, should at least run the risk of taking losses for moving out of supply, regardless of its readiness (again IMO).
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