OT: Corona virus

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mind_messing
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I don't think the problem is education , it's educators. I went to college from 1979 to 1985 (no , I wasn't trying to do a "Bluto", nor was I particularly stupid , just a series of recall from the US Navy Reserve). After a disastrous 1st year trying to major in political science, I switched my major to history. I'd heard that the purpose of higher education wasn't to teach you information , but to teach you to think, to in effect , learn to use that knowledge. Traditionally that meant studying the classics. (Sorry , I do badly with languages , so no Latin or Greek for me). Once I had my BA , then I would go on to get a technical degree MA.

The other thing I did was to pick the oldest , stodgiest professors I could find. I referred to them behind their backs as the "bow tie brigade". What I found was that they generally taught in the "Classic way". I would learn "historiography", the "scientific method" and the most damning and hated (but most effective) of all, "The Socratic method". When these old geezers taught me , I really felt that I learned to THINK. (My high school chemistry teacher used to say every morning "I don't mean to swear at you so early in the morning people , BUT THINK!!!!").

Some of my younger professors didn't get this technique. Or approve of it. I secretly think they were more interested in indoctrination than teaching you to think for yourself , then effectively debate your point of view.

Current graduates are as one of my favorite columnist likes to say (Professor Glenn Reynolds of "instapundit" fame) "Today's graduates are CREDENTIALED , not educated". [:D]

That's a fair point. There's a lot going on that has caused this shift (in my mind) around the economics of it.

- The classics don't have anywhere near the value they held previously.
- There's significantly less value on education for the sake of self-betterment, or for educations sake alone, and instead on making it tied to careers and earnings.
- The cost of education is massively higher (despite increased access) compared to previous generations, so there is strong emphasis on getting a good RoI for individuals.

The end result is that there's less concern about the more intangible benefits (ie. the critical thinking/information processing side of it) and more around the tangible benefits (passing X exam that provides Y credential which adds Z to my final salary).

I will disclaimer that I am not hugely familiar with the US situation but imagine that it would be reasonably similar with that of England (no tuition fees in Scotland!).
fcooke
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by fcooke »

Good points Steve....

In the course of my education I had the good fortune to have the 'this is how to think/analyze' education vs some of the 'this is the answer' stuff I got later in college approach.

Sadly I got 5 years of Latin and 4 years of French in the mix. I am pretty good with numbers.....not so much with languages.

But generally speaking, learning how to use your noodle makes more sense than repeating what someone tells you are the facts.
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HansBolter
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I don't think the problem is education , it's educators. I went to college from 1979 to 1985 (no , I wasn't trying to do a "Bluto", nor was I particularly stupid , just a series of recall from the US Navy Reserve). After a disastrous 1st year trying to major in political science, I switched my major to history. I'd heard that the purpose of higher education wasn't to teach you information , but to teach you to think, to in effect , learn to use that knowledge. Traditionally that meant studying the classics. (Sorry , I do badly with languages , so no Latin or Greek for me). Once I had my BA , then I would go on to get a technical degree MA.

The other thing I did was to pick the oldest , stodgiest professors I could find. I referred to them behind their backs as the "bow tie brigade". What I found was that they generally taught in the "Classic way". I would learn "historiography", the "scientific method" and the most damning and hated (but most effective) of all, "The Socratic method". When these old geezers taught me , I really felt that I learned to THINK. (My high school chemistry teacher used to say every morning "I don't mean to swear at you so early in the morning people , BUT THINK!!!!").

Some of my younger professors didn't get this technique. Or approve of it. I secretly think they were more interested in indoctrination than teaching you to think for yourself , then effectively debate your point of view.

Current graduates are as one of my favorite columnist likes to say (Professor Glenn Reynolds of "instapundit" fame) "Today's graduates are CREDENTIALED , not educated". [:D]


Thank you for chiming in.

I consider myself to be somewhat highly educated, having pursued life long studies of astronomy, cosmology, a smattering of quantum physics, military and geopolitical history, art and architecture.

What I don't have and have never found the need to seek is external validation, ie...credentials.

Many years ago I taught myself technical specification writing for my chosen profession. This is the highly technical side of architecture wherein one must specify everything down to the types and sizes of fasteners. Very few of the 'designer' types ever want to learn it, which makes it a rare skill within the profession, making me a valuable asset and a desirable hire for any firm.

About a decade ago I was working in a firm where I was one of only two people with this skill. The other one, a licensed Architect, was constantly pushing me to acquire a Construction Specifications Institute (CSI) certification so I could add CSI after my name on my business cards. I thanked him for the repeated suggestions, but neither took him up on it, nor told him just what I think of 'certifications'.

Hans

Sammy5IsAlive
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This is just lovely.

The contention here, two weeks ago, was that college professors don't have a liberal bias. So which is it?

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

There is a well-documented association between education levels and liberal views, even if there are a lot of factors at play.

Flawed logic on your part: not all of those who are educated are in academia.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This is just lovely.

Mind_messing contending that higher education is liberal, two weeks after contending (right here, in this thread) that college professors don't have a liberal bias.




Higher education does NOT equate to intelligence, competence or wisdom.

There is published evidence that there is in fact a link between intelligence and educational achievement.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/wlsresearch/pu ... .A.H.E.pdf

And if you fancy something a bit more modern (and larger scale), then here you are:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/St ... vement.pdf

Is there an established scientific definition for competence or wisdom separate from Spearman's g?


I think there is a slight gap in the reasoning though.

There may be evidence to show that higher intelligence correlates with educational achievement.
There may also be evidence to show that educational achievement correlates with more liberal views.
What doesn't follow as a logical necessity is that higher intelligence correlates with more liberal views.

I know that this example is overused but it always sticks in my head
Ice cream sales increase in hot weather.
Hot weather correlates with increased deaths from drownings
This does not mean that ice cream sales are causing people to drown.
mind_messing
Posts: 3394
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I don't think the problem is education , it's educators. I went to college from 1979 to 1985 (no , I wasn't trying to do a "Bluto", nor was I particularly stupid , just a series of recall from the US Navy Reserve). After a disastrous 1st year trying to major in political science, I switched my major to history. I'd heard that the purpose of higher education wasn't to teach you information , but to teach you to think, to in effect , learn to use that knowledge. Traditionally that meant studying the classics. (Sorry , I do badly with languages , so no Latin or Greek for me). Once I had my BA , then I would go on to get a technical degree MA.

The other thing I did was to pick the oldest , stodgiest professors I could find. I referred to them behind their backs as the "bow tie brigade". What I found was that they generally taught in the "Classic way". I would learn "historiography", the "scientific method" and the most damning and hated (but most effective) of all, "The Socratic method". When these old geezers taught me , I really felt that I learned to THINK. (My high school chemistry teacher used to say every morning "I don't mean to swear at you so early in the morning people , BUT THINK!!!!").

Some of my younger professors didn't get this technique. Or approve of it. I secretly think they were more interested in indoctrination than teaching you to think for yourself , then effectively debate your point of view.

Current graduates are as one of my favorite columnist likes to say (Professor Glenn Reynolds of "instapundit" fame) "Today's graduates are CREDENTIALED , not educated". [:D]


Thank you for chiming in.

I consider myself to be somewhat highly educated, having pursued life long studies of astronomy, cosmology, a smattering of quantum physics, military and geopolitical history, art and architecture.

What I don't have and have never found the need to seek is external validation, ie...credentials.

Many years ago I taught myself technical specification writing for my chosen profession. This is the highly technical side of architecture wherein one must specify everything down to the types and sizes of fasteners. Very few of the 'designer' types ever want to learn it, which makes it a rare skill within the profession, making me a valuable asset and a desirable hire for any firm.

About a decade ago I was working in a firm where I was one of only two people with this skill. The other one, a licensed Architect, was constantly pushing me to acquire a Construction Specifications Institute (CSI) certification so I could add CSI after my name on my business cards. I thanked him for the repeated suggestions, but neither took him up on it, nor told him just what I think of 'certifications'.

I consider myself to be somewhat highly educated, having pursued life long studies of astronomy, cosmology, a smattering of quantum physics, military and geopolitical history, art and architecture. What I don't have and have never found the need to seek is external validation, ie...credentials.

<<Cognitive dissonance detected>>

External validation is a curious way to phrase that. Professional validation would be a more accurate phrase.

Given your experience with the architectural profession you'll know the value of working to specific standards, so why would you consider a professional accreditation process illegitimate?
mind_messing
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This is just lovely.

The contention here, two weeks ago, was that college professors don't have a liberal bias. So which is it?




Flawed logic on your part: not all of those who are educated are in academia.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter



Higher education does NOT equate to intelligence, competence or wisdom.

There is published evidence that there is in fact a link between intelligence and educational achievement.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/wlsresearch/pu ... .A.H.E.pdf

And if you fancy something a bit more modern (and larger scale), then here you are:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/St ... vement.pdf

Is there an established scientific definition for competence or wisdom separate from Spearman's g?


I think there is a slight gap in the reasoning though.

There may be evidence to show that higher intelligence correlates with educational achievement.
There may also be evidence to show that educational achievement correlates with more liberal views.
What doesn't follow as a logical necessity is that higher intelligence correlates with more liberal views.

I know that this example is overused but it always sticks in my head
Ice cream sales increase in hot weather.
Hot weather correlates with increased deaths from drownings
This does not mean that ice cream sales are causing people to drown.

The phrase you're looking for is a spurious correlation: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

I've not claimed that its a logical necessity - just that there is a link.

The association could be driven by many factors:

- more educated people may have been more liberal to begin with
- more conservative people may place less value on education above X level, so not go to college
- etc etc

However, while we don't know the driving factors, there is evidence for the association. If we can't unpick it precisely, we can take a reasonably good guess at what the driving factors are (in your case hot weather as the common driver behind increased swimming and ice cream sales).
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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”

- F. Scott Fitzgerald






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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

“Each generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it.”
-George Orwell






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BBfanboy
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Flawed logic on your part: not all of those who are educated are in academia.




There is published evidence that there is in fact a link between intelligence and educational achievement.

https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/wlsresearch/pu ... .A.H.E.pdf

And if you fancy something a bit more modern (and larger scale), then here you are:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/St ... vement.pdf

Is there an established scientific definition for competence or wisdom separate from Spearman's g?


I think there is a slight gap in the reasoning though.

There may be evidence to show that higher intelligence correlates with educational achievement.
There may also be evidence to show that educational achievement correlates with more liberal views.
What doesn't follow as a logical necessity is that higher intelligence correlates with more liberal views.

I know that this example is overused but it always sticks in my head
Ice cream sales increase in hot weather.
Hot weather correlates with increased deaths from drownings
This does not mean that ice cream sales are causing people to drown.

The phrase you're looking for is a spurious correlation: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

I've not claimed that its a logical necessity - just that there is a link.

The association could be driven by many factors:

- more educated people may have been more liberal to begin with
- more conservative people may place less value on education above X level, so not go to college
- etc etc

However, while we don't know the driving factors, there is evidence for the association. If we can't unpick it precisely, we can take a reasonably good guess at what the driving factors are (in your case hot weather as the common driver behind increased swimming and ice cream sales).
Rather than intelligence or education, I think the difference is "curiousity". Those who are curious about everything will keep an open mind and learn a wide range of things that help them frame the world more realistically. Those who take the attitude that "they already know enough" do not take interest in sciences or worldwide events, wasting their time on TV reality shows and such. Worst are those who claim a position based on "faith" in their particular prophet, and will not change their minds despite all evidence and the prophet's obvious flaws (which make him/her human rather than divine). It's just obstinacy because they cannot admit they made a mistake following that path and redirect themselves.

I am amazed at how many people still seem to have no idea how their personal choices about avoiding social contact can have dire consequences for people a couple of contacts away from them. Think of the six degrees of separation paradigm - you can connect people worldwide with just six "contacts".
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
mind_messing
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I am amazed at how many people still seem to have no idea how their personal choices about avoiding social contact can have dire consequences for people a couple of contacts away from them. Think of the six degrees of separation paradigm - you can connect people worldwide with just six "contacts".

Some notable contributors to this thread should take note of this - you know who you are.
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Cheesesteak
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cheesesteak »

So many generalizations flying around, we are about two posts away from turning into a generational blame-game. Disappointing.
"Knowledge is Good" - Emil Faber
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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Rather than intelligence or education, I think the difference is "curiousity".


Knowing something is not the same as understanding it.






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Cap Mandrake
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

I've learned to PRETEND not to be smart because it makes people nervous.


Take Detroit or Baltimore...absolutely crammed with voters who align themselves with liberal views. Must be a lot of people who speak classic Greek and recite sonnets, eh?
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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Widow Of Man Who Drank Fish Tank Cleaner Being Investigation For His Murder
Apr 29, 2020


https://ktrh.iheart.com/featured/michae ... is-murder/


"The Mesa City Police Department's homicide division is investigating the death of Gary Lenius, the Arizona man whose wife served him soda mixed with fish tank cleaner in what she claimed was a bid to fend off the coronavirus. A detective handling the case confirmed the investigation to the Washington Free Beacon on Tuesday after requesting a recording of the Free Beacon's interviews with Lenius's wife, Wanda.

Gary Lenius, 68, died on March 22. Wanda, 61, told several news outlets last month that both she and her husband had ingested a substance used to clean aquariums after hearing President Donald Trump tout one of its ingredients, chloroquine phosphate, from the White House briefing room."






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Canoerebel
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Per Worldometers, UK reporting 4,419 deaths today, which is wildly higher any previous report. This is probably an accounting adjustment - the totals catching up, reporting newly confirmed cases that had been pending for some time. But I've also seen Worldometers make an incorrect report, later correcting it.

Any of you UK folks know what's going on with this report?
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Sammy5IsAlive
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Per Worldometers, UK reporting 4,419 deaths today, which is wildly higher any previous report. This is probably an accounting adjustment - the totals catching up, reporting newly confirmed cases that had been pending for some time. But I've also seen Worldometers make an incorrect report, later correcting it.

Any of you UK folks know what's going on with this report?

They have included deaths outside of hospital i.e. by and large those in care homes. I think c.3.8k of that figure is for the whole period not for a single day[X(], with c.600 being the 'daily' total

That is only the figure for those testing +ve for Covid - the true figure is likely significantly higher. Along those lines yesterday the ONS released the overall death statistics for week ending 17/04 which may be of interest -

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 7april2020

Edit - MakeeLearn - Jinx!
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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Coronavirus death toll 54% higher in England and Wales than daily stats showed
April 29, 2020


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/uk/uk-de ... index.html



"London (CNN)The true death toll from the coronavirus in England and Wales up to April 17 was 54% higher than the UK government's daily figures, according to Britain's Office of National Statistics (ONS).
There were 22,300 coronavirus-related deaths in England and Wales up to April 17, according to the ONS data. These were registered by April 25. By comparison, the UK government said 14,451 people died from the disease in England and Wales up to April 17.
The 54% difference is caused by multiple factors."






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Canoerebel
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Thanks, Sammy. There've been similar perturbations in reporting by various states and the US on occasion, when results from a backlog of tests come in suddenly or when tabulating methods changed. Heck, we saw that with China back in January or early February, following a change in the definition of "Covid death."
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

"Where is your Digital ID proof of your Vaccine Certificate!"


Hypothetical Scenario

A somewhat normal summer then a second wave of infections causing extreme upheaval.






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MakeeLearn
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by MakeeLearn »

Meat plant workers to Trump: Employees aren't going to show up
4 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... li=BBnb7Kz

"Meat processing plant workers are concerned about President Donald Trump's executive order that compels plants to remain open during the coronavirus pandemic. Some say they expect staff will refuse to come to work. "






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