What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? Now allowed for Oloren!

[terje439]

Turn 129

Overall
I REALLY need to do something about the supply situation now. Due to poor supply, I am almost at a standstill this turn. I eliminate a few pockets, and launch the first assault on Moscow (capitol hex), reducing the fort from 4 to 3, but not taking it.
As stated, supply is holding me back, and a mere 29 attacks were made this turn, causing 5 helds, 19 retreats, 3 routs and 2 surrenders.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
12.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
6.

Losses
USSR : 186.000 troops, 3.132 guns, 62 AFVs, 292 AC.
Axis : 39.000 troops, 254 guns, 102 AFVs, 50 AC.

USSR units lost
4 Rifle Corps, 2 Rifle Divisions, 1 Sapper regiment.

German units disbanded
None.

Partisans hunted down
11, leaving 5 on the map.
These guys are now a REAL pain.

German pools
Manpower : 274.213
Vehicles : 207.048
Armaments : 670.511
Hiwi : 215.984
Ok Mister Speer. Never thought I would say this, but less rifles, more trucks please!

Victory Points
229.

Screenshot
Some things just makes for a nice/warm/fuzzy feeling [:D]

[randallw]

All the Soviet OOB numbers are quite poor except for the Red Air Force, and aren't getting better. I just don't see a time period long enough for units to be rebuilt and trained up to even stabilize the line, let alone pushing the battle line towards the west. The frontline Soviet strength looks like what the Germans kept expecting to see in 1941.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: AFV

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Ok, I suppose the beatings will continue until morale improves.

Really, this is nothing but an exercise in logistics now. It's neither interesting nor sporting. Honor my ass.

This is the reason so many of us pushed for the alt victory conditions being in the range of attainable- and I truly wondered why some actually opposed it. *cough* Flavius-Aurelian-LiquidSky
If Terje can gather the required victory points, then it will end. Until then, it goes on, as it should.

I haven't changed my mind on the alt victory conditions. I can imagine circumstances where a Soviet comeback is still possible even at the 260 level, or at any rate the possibility of snatching a draw.

But not in this game. The Red Army is simply broken beyond repair. Has been for some time. Circumstances are such that drawing it out seems utterly pointless to me.

Raw VP calculations do not take into account conditions on the ground.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Honor my ass.

With the greatest respect, I will not

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: terje439

I also think there is another aspect that is easily forgotten in these games. To me, a pbem is not just a game that is to be won or lost. It is an agreement between two persons to fight it out. Where is the honour and fun in quitting just because things are not going well enough? I have had some opponents like that, and those I will never play again.

And ofc, by that standard, I should have surrendered this game at the end of -41 [;)]


Terje

Quite right

I had not realised honour was just a European thing these days. I hope Mexico does not attack the Alamo again. Today's Texicans would probably surrender after the first couple of hours because they couldn't win and their supplies were nerfed.

Yes, I am playing a yank (Smokindave) who looks like playing on to the bitter end but who said love,war or forums had to be fair? He is the first from many games to show signs of doing so.

[Fishbed]

The guys wanna fight to the bitter end, they fight to the bitter end - better leave them alone, jeez! We're either on a free forum, or in a free country, & as long as he doesn't need my real money to hire new virtual Soviet troops, I don't see why I should care about him minding his own business!

[Karri]

His only troops worth anything are probably in leningrad...you've destroyed everything else.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: terje439
I also think there is another aspect that is easily forgotten in these games. To me, a pbem is not just a game that is to be won or lost. It is an agreement between two persons to fight it out. Where is the honour and fun in quitting just because things are not going well enough? I have had some opponents like that, and those I will never play again.

And ofc, by that standard, I should have surrendered this game at the end of -41 [;)]

Terje

Indeed quite right. By blizzard I wouldn't have bet a cent on your Wehrmacht anymore. But you taught everyone here a very good lesson I'd conclude. This game offers much more possibilities, and a few good dice rolls at he right time, or an unlucky combination of mistakes or oversights on your opponents part, can still change the whole picture.

Your's is a good habit not to throw the towel too early. Same for your opponent, respects to hold on. If I'd imagine this habit had developed with the WitP community, this would have lead too many more games stopped after about 1 year, by early 43, since there the Allied superiority is much much more felt there after that. But even the demise can hold a few interesting moments, and defending can be as exciting as attacking.

[AFV]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I haven't changed my mind on the alt victory conditions. I can imagine circumstances where a Soviet comeback is still possible even at the 260 level, or at any rate the possibility of snatching a draw.

But not in this game. The Red Army is simply broken beyond repair. Has been for some time. Circumstances are such that drawing it out seems utterly pointless to me.

Raw VP calculations do not take into account conditions on the ground.

We can agree to disagree on the scenario. However...

I'm sure you can imagine circumstances where a Soviet comeback was possible at the 260 level- hell, you can imagine circumstances where its possible at the 292 level- but in either of those instances, the Soviet does not deserve a comeback attempt. They simply gave up to much land, and to many cities.

For people who do like to play to the end, the 260 level offers a honorable way to truncate a game gone lopsided. I guess it burns you up that this version is so popular, lol?

Also, the German should play to the end when the Soviet is bearing down on Berlin, right? When the German army is broken beyond repair, and has been for some time? The logical extension of your argument is that they should not.

[Flaviusx]

The difference is this: a German can still contrive to pull out a draw if he can hold out Berlin past the expiration date.

There is nothing like that to look forward to here for the Soviet. It is over. Really. Either the game ends in the summer of 1944 as the German nears the map edge, or, worst case, he wins a minor with the Wehrmacht still deep in the Soviet Union come 1945. This Red Army is played out. Either way, it won't recover. Stick a fork in it, it's done. Unless you want to play for "honor" whatever that means.

[Tophat1815]

No update today........[:(]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Unless you want to play for "honor" whatever that means.

Oh dear.

Honour (sic) is about knowing what is morally right and then doing it.

In the context of a game like this it means not giving up just because you are not winning, unless invited to do so by your opponent or in accordance with an earlier agreed code of conduct.

It is in my opinion not honourable for a 3rd party to encourage one side or both to stop playing. This is not to say it is entirely appropriate to give your assessment of the prospects of either side.

[Michael T]

Sadly David, honour is not often apparent around here.

[sillyflower]

or, possibly worse, rarely even spelt properly[;)]

[Flaviusx]

In this context what you call "honour" I call "quixotic." And I come down on the side of Sancho Panza every time.

[AFV]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The difference is this: a German can still contrive to pull out a draw if he can hold out Berlin past the expiration date.

There is nothing like that to look forward to here for the Soviet. It is over. Really. Either the game ends in the summer of 1944 as the German nears the map edge, or, worst case, he wins a minor with the Wehrmacht still deep in the Soviet Union come 1945. This Red Army is played out. Either way, it won't recover. Stick a fork in it, it's done. Unless you want to play for "honor" whatever that means.

So, thank you, you admit the actual outcome is doubt. Then play on. You have looped yourself several times in your faulty logic.

[Flaviusx]

I consider the possibility of an outright autovictory well in excess of 90% here, actually. It is barely possible that the Axis will come up short of 290.

For all practical purposes the Soviet has lost and badly. The issue is not in doubt. The only question is how much the score is going to get run up. Again, it's not the VP count that matters here but the state of the two armies.

[randallw]

I also see it like that; the tide is simply getting worse for the Soviet side and there's nothing due to happen that will establish a solid front line.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

No update today........[:(]

Sorry, ended up working 15 hrs instead [:(]
Going to check my mail now [:)]


Terje

[terje439]

Turn 130

Overall
Not much happened, we took one more Moscow hex, and a few hexes north of the city, but no pockets were formed this turn. I am currently shifting light green panzers southwards, I am also doing the same with the Luftwaffe. When they all arrive, I will start the plan "game, set, match" (see below).
No more than a total of 43 attacks this turn, the result was 6 helds, 31 retreats, 4 routs and 2 surrenders.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
6.

USSR units in pockets at end of turn
3.

Losses
USSR : 136.000 troops, 2.502 guns, 17 AFVs, 356 AC.
Axis : 42.000 troops, 418 guns, 83 AFVs, 64 AC.

USSR units lost
2 Rifle Corps, 1 Rifle Division, 1 PVO AA regiment.

German units disbanded
None.

Partisans hunted down
13, leaving 1 on the map.

German pools
Manpower : 280.026
Vehicles : 193.228
Armaments : 685.693
Hiwi : 221.636

Victory Points
232.