Frozen frogs! Stef78 (axis) Stelteck (Russia) - Stelteck welcome

[Mamluke]

WOW you are doing it stef! you are actually managing to pull of a stalemate in summer 1944!!
even if the winter takes away all the advantage of the large rivers, the low winter mobility will make the battle for the Ukraine far more manageable!
and it seams not even the Soviets could sustain such enormous tank loses in such a sort period of time... interesting even with out encirclement.

it will be interesting non the less to see what a desperate and powerful red army can do in 1945.



and BIG props for Stelteck for staying with this! it must be disheartening to get such meager results, but much respect for keeping up with a bad situation.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: Mamluke

WOW you are doing it stef! you are actually managing to pull of a stalemate in summer 1944!!

It's the first time that I get good results in summer 1944. My previous campaigns proved to be disasters during this period

even if the winter takes away all the advantage of the large rivers, the low winter mobility will make the battle for the Ukraine far more manageable!
and it seams not even the Soviets could sustain such enormous tank loses in such a sort period of time... interesting even with out encirclement.

it will be interesting non the less to see what a desperate and powerful red army can do in 1945.

we shall see what can be done... NM is still falling...

and BIG props for Stelteck for staying with this! it must be disheartening to get such meager results, but much respect for keeping up with a bad situation.

Agreed, Stelteck is a good player (and a very nice and reliable person!) but I think he lacks of experience of late war campaign.

And he built an army based on tank/mech corps and has now to deal with it...

[STEF78]

Turn 169, 7th september 1944

I cannot be strong everywhere... and Stelteck has a very mobile army. He created a dangerous situation north of Minsk



Some counterattacks and also some ground given to prevent encirclement.



In the South some other attempts to cross the Dniepr. I need to hold the river till mud. Otherwise, I will have to give at least 30 miles per week.

[beender]

If soviet mobile formations in 1944 is anything close to that of Germans in 1941, then yes i agree the bulge near minsk is a risk worth immediate attention.

By the way its quite impressive to see a panzer division repelling an attack by more than 10 times of men. Suppose that does not happen a lot even in wite.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: beender

If soviet mobile formations in 1944 is anything close to that of Germans in 1941, then yes i agree the bulge near minsk is a risk worth immediate attention.

From my opinion and experience 3 tank corps in late summer 1944 are equivalent to 2 good Pzd

By the way its quite impressive to see a panzer division repelling an attack by more than 10 times of men. Suppose that does not happen a lot even in wite.

Look closely at these 2 defensive fights
1) No tac bombing prior attacking
2) Good defensive terrain
3) Defender under same command
4) Attacker under different command
5) Reserve activation
6) When I loose, no valuable support, a weak unit called as reserve and an average german commander
7) When I win, strong support (always 3 to each Pzd) and the best german commander. Only one guard rifle corps.

Good result, but not only good random dices.

I will detail later the way I use to maximize russian losses while counterattacking (I was on holidays and had time to take picture of each step [;)])

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I will detail later the way I use to maximize russian losses while counterattacking (I was on holidays and had time to take picture of each step [;)])

Nice I'll be looking forward to that Stef
Some nice tips on how to counter attack successfully as Axis later in the war will be a great read

[beender]

yes, it's not just dice rolls. The original CV was 867(a single panzer div) vs 1083(230k infantry), and that is where i am impressed. Apparently you have managed to keep at least some of the German elite units in quite good shape.

[STEF78]

Turn 170, 15th september 1944

Heavy pressure from Dvina to Berezina. Nothing useful can be done against russian rifle corps on the long term



I decide to give some ground to soften attacks.



Near Cherkassy 2 bridgeheads are created, only one can be destroyed. No way to expell russian units from rough terrain. Note that this tank régiments are now stronger than a Stug brigade.



2 bridgeheads are also created acroos the lower Dniepr, only one can be destroyed (bis). Russian units in marshes can't be sent back... mud will be welcome!

[BrianG]

2 turns ago

did I see the Russians lost 26 planes when the Germans sent none up to meet them?

Was it a flax fest or just ?.

btw defense of river has been stellar.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: BrianG

2 turns ago

did I see the Russians lost 26 planes when the Germans sent none up to meet them?

Was it a flax fest or just ?.

Air fights results are sometimes weird.
I have concentrated lots of fighter squadrons near Minsk and it's hard to determine why interception works or not.
And concerning Flak efficiency, I must admit my ignorance. Anti air weapons are more powerfull on the late war but I also find some results difficult to explain

btw defense of river has been stellar.

Thanks.... next natural stop after Dniepr/Dvina is the Vistula/Carpathian mountains line

[STEF78]

Turn 171, 21th september 1944

Some grinding in the north. Russian tank corps are refiting...



Another bridgehead over the Dniepr...



... but only temporary. I took 2 pictures of the fight in order to show the impact of the retreat. art and AFV don't like retreating.



Situation is becoming worrying on the lower Dniepr. Fortunatly, supply isn't easy through swamp and major river.

[STEF78]

Turn 172, 28th september 1944

New breakthrough attempt near Minsk...



... Pzk did the job. Heavy AFV losses on the russian side



Same story than previous week near Cherkassy. Lots of air units involved



On the lower Dniepr, russians failed to extend their bridgehead. But time is definitively not on my side...

[Mamluke]

but steff, in this situation at the Dniepr, times is on your side, you just need to hold a few more turns and mud! fallowed by snow.
I mean, you are almost at October, maybe a early mud?

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: Mamluke

but steff, in this situation at the Dniepr, times is on your side, you just need to hold a few more turns and mud! fallowed by snow.
I mean, you are almost at October, maybe a early mud?

True, I shouldn't complain after such a summer.

But I was more thinking about the whole campaign. If the german has not won end summer 1942, it's over.

We are playing non random, so no surprise on weather.

[chaos45]

you should still win by points with the new scenario scoring no?

As yo are doing much better than historical by far.

I think the main mistake the soviet player has made is not concentrating all armor, mech, and cav corps backed by lots of artillery BDE/DIV in the same sector. To me this is critical, the German panzerball is nigh unstoppable until 1943 and then from 1943 on the soviet player has to do the same. As just grinding wont smash the German army fast enough.

I still think best overall strategy for both sides is about the same as real life-- whichever side has the mobility edge from 1942+ on should fight in the south as there is less defensive terrain....then are you drag all the opposing mobile elements into the south it allows the north to either stay stagnant or for the soviets 1943+ infantry corps to slowly push the german infantry line out of lvl 3 forts...at which point the soviet infantry should be able to easily beat up late war German infantry units.

Thus my critique of the soviet play...armor elements still scattered and thus not effective at all against German counterattack operations. Is also some extremely bad moves for the soviets to let their armor get decimated week after week...thus not building up elite levels of morale. Until you get at least a 2 hex breach in the German lines to fully exploit you need to use the armor to do hit and run attacks on the german lines. This one helps to build morale and two allows you to successfully repair more soviet armor by not being adjacent to German units in the repair phase. Then try to use soviet infantry to be adjacent to German armor to help limit their repair rates.

again my 2 cents [8D]

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

you should still win by points with the new scenario scoring no?

Not sure what you're speaking about. We are playing bitter end and I didn't noticed that victory conditions changed

As yo are doing much better than historical by far.

... but the fate will be the same[;)]

I think the main mistake the soviet player has made is not concentrating all armor, mech, and cav corps backed by lots of artillery BDE/DIV in the same sector. To me this is critical, the German panzerball is nigh unstoppable until 1943 and then from 1943 on the soviet player has to do the same. As just grinding wont smash the German army fast enough.

I still think best overall strategy for both sides is about the same as real life-- whichever side has the mobility edge from 1942+ on should fight in the south as there is less defensive terrain....then are you drag all the opposing mobile elements into the south it allows the north to either stay stagnant or for the soviets 1943+ infantry corps to slowly push the german infantry line out of lvl 3 forts...at which point the soviet infantry should be able to easily beat up late war German infantry units.

Thus my critique of the soviet play...armor elements still scattered and thus not effective at all against German counterattack operations. Is also some extremely bad moves for the soviets to let their armor get decimated week after week...thus not building up elite levels of morale. Until you get at least a 2 hex breach in the German lines to fully exploit you need to use the armor to do hit and run attacks on the german lines. This one helps to build morale and two allows you to successfully repair more soviet armor by not being adjacent to German units in the repair phase. Then try to use soviet infantry to be adjacent to German armor to help limit their repair rates.

again my 2 cents [8D]

I believe the problem is more about the structure of red army: too many tank corps, not enough artillery early 1944, not enough IL2M

[beender]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

... but the fate will be the same[;)]

I agree that simply losing Berlin a little or even much later than history does not feel like a "victory" [:D]

[Stelteck]

Hi from the soviet [:'(]:

My opinion about some questions in this thread :

Scoring :
This bitter end scenario is lost for the soviet. I do not believe in fact the you can win point wise if you loose both leningrad and moscow. They give tons of points to the german each turn. (You can probably loose one, but not two).

Too many tanks corps, not enough artillery and infantry :
Yes and No. I do not believe i have too many tank corps. I have the equipment to use them.
It is true that i could use more infantry corps and artillery. (Not in main axe of offensive where it is already crowded, but everywhere else because quiet part of the front are currently a little too quiet for the german).
In fact i stopped producing new units end 1943 and i should not have done that. New units to do not weaken the red army. Currently my manpower production is growing and better than the one in 1942 due to returning disabled and capture of new towns.
I restarted the production mid 1944.
With proper management, i could probably had the current amount of tank corps and more others stuffs at the same time.

You should concentrate soviet tank ball more :
Not sûre and in fact i already concentrated large amount of troops at the same point with not very good results. You cannot stack so much unit due to the 3 stack limits, and also if you concentrate top soviet troops somewhere you will face top german troops. And top german troops still better than top soviet troops.
Maybe i fail at deception [:D]

You should not let your tanks corps being attacked :
It was in fact on purpose. I noticed that tank corps on the defensive inflicts tons of casualties on attacking german troops and i was expecting to attrit the german army
by forcing it to do costly counter attack each turn. So i kept my troops in contact.
It was not effective, probably because german manpower production is higher than i was expected. (Not counting german tanks that are very hard to damage, it is ever harder to attrit german tank production).

More IL-2 :
I have in fact tons of IL-2 squadron, but using them in detail take too much time and would have lead to a game burn out.
Unfortunately, automatic ground support is not very efficient with very, very limited impact on the battle results.

I could probably have caused from 2000 to 5000 casualties to german each turn by micromanaging 100 air raids each turn, but it really take too much time.
The worst is not doing the raid, (i managed to configure the automatic system to do quite efficient raid in one click). The worst is to rotate air squadron in and out reserve for morale management. The interface is terrible you need tons of click for each air squadron.

I'am also not sûre at all these casualties would have changed the game as i caused 30000+ casualties each turn to the german in 1943 with no noticeable effect.


You lack experience of late war WITE :

Really true, i did a lot of mistakes and mostly lost a lot of time with stuff that are in fact not very usefull.
WITE have tons of parameters, but not all these parameters have a real effect on the game.

I'am also not used to be on offensive it is a different sensation for a soviet player [:D]

And of course let's not forget Stephane state of the art defense. [&o]

[STEF78]

Thanks to Stelteck for sharing his analysis of the game.

I agree with him on the russian "panzer ball" but I would have concentrated more strength on the DZ area. Dniepr is easier to cross here, even if the german set his best units in this sector.

Maybe he is right on the organisation of red army with lots of tanks corps... there is not so much games entering 1944 in order to compare.

I only disagree with the use of IL2M. It's boring (even if useful) to use them against level 3 entrenchment but bery efficient against retreating or non entrenched units. You can get 500+ kill with a single tac bombing in this case. It really makes the difference on the long term.

[STEF78]

Turn 173, 5th october 1944

Last turn of clear weather. Stelteck did an interesting attack in the center. As indicated few turns ago, I will detail step by step the way I use to maximize russian losses

The situation after russian moves. It's dangerous for my 3 stacks between the russian pincers but ground is also very interesting with impassable hexes, swamp and a major river...



First: heavy tac bombing. Units without entrenchment suffer significant losses and disruption.



An intuition told me not to retake hexes under russian control and first counter attack proved me to be right! Due to the stacks and ZOC, the russian units retreat to the west!



I decide to play all my cards to get a very good result. Second counterattack and same result... it begins to be very interesting!



Counterattack of the northern pincer



Sealing the Pocket!



Last counterattack against the northern pincer



Final view, no rescue possible. 8 russian corps trapped. Well I wanted to show how to use ZOC's to maximize russian losses but results are far beyond my expectations! Russian november offensive will be less efficient.