Secession, right or wrong?

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Greyshaft
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Your wrong. Your opinion is simply incorrect... The meaning of rebellion and the meaning of Insurrection are clear, your legalistic attempt to muddy the water notwithstanding.
Legalistic??? You dispute my reasoning because it is legalistic? Well I suppose it is. So if my reasoning is based on legal principles then I must ask what are the principles on which you base your argument? If you are not looking at the legal principles then you can't claim to be holding an unbiased viewpoint.
As to the specifics on the Civil War, North Carolina had , with the help and permission of the Governor and the legislature siezed illegally Federal property, using your excuse the Federal Government had NO recourse since to act would be an "act of Treason"
Your position seems to be that Lincoln had no option but to invade the southern states therefore his actions were justified. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. That's a political question. All I'm doing is pointing out that by invading North Carolina he committed Treason.

RERomine, I don't dispute that North Carolina started warlike actions prior to their secession. I just maintain that Lincoln committed Treason by declaring a blockade while the state was still a member of the Union.

Katrina? Come on now... don't trivialise the argument. No-one suggests that the troops deployed during Katrina were there to overthrow the state government. The key here is the word 'war' in Article III section 3 "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort..." Can you show that the Katrina troops were levying war? No? Neither can I. On the other hand there is plenty of evidence of 'levying war' during the 1860's

Utah did not become a state of the USA until January 4, 1896. Prior to that time it could not claim the protections afforded to states by the constitution so Buchanan's invasion was not Treason.
/Greyshaft
RERomine
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
RERomine, I don't dispute that North Carolina started warlike actions prior to their secession. I just maintain that Lincoln committed Treason by declaring a blockade while the state was still a member of the Union.

Taking measures to suppress rebellion isn't treason. Rebellion is treason.

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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: RERomine

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
RERomine, I don't dispute that North Carolina started warlike actions prior to their secession. I just maintain that Lincoln committed Treason by declaring a blockade while the state was still a member of the Union.

Taking measures to suppress rebellion isn't treason. Rebellion is treason.
"Treason doth not prosper; whats the reason?
if it prosper none dare call it treason"

...Sir John Harrington 1601

If a` President can trash the constitution whenever he finds it necessary to achieve his political objectives (regardless of the noble nature of those objectives) then that is not the rule of law. You justify Lincoln's treason on the grounds that he had to use treason to fight treason. That may or may not be true but the indisputable fact remains that, according to the constitution, Lincoln committed Treason.

So far the only rebuttal of my point has been that he was justified to do it.
/Greyshaft
Paper Tiger
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Paper Tiger »

I return once again to the end of the Rebellion of the USA against Britain, at the end of that rebellion the question of states who did not wish to secede from Britain and be a part of the USA (Vermont) was raised, and at that point it was made very clear that the states of the USA were indivisible. Vermont could not remain a part of Britain even if the majority of it's population wished to do so. Precident on secession I think, in the same way Vermont could not secede from the USA to remain part of the United Kingdom the other states could not secede to form the CSA. The decision regarding the states of the CSA was consistent with that from 1783 regarding Vermont.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by keystone »

What no one is hitting on is that this was a power struggle. The South wanted more slave states, more power for them. The South was losing it's power in Congress and were paranoid about abolitionists gaining ground in the North. If the South could acquire more Slave owning states they might be able to stem the tide. This was also a time when being a Virginian meant more than being an U.S. citizen. It wasn't just written law that mattered to most, but a feeling that no govt. should be able to tell a state, or person what to do. This is where Lincoln and many others differed, and Lincoln would (and did) do anything to keep the United States together. Does anyone remember what Lincoln did in Maryland? Anyone that thinks that the constitution at the time forbade succession also believes that the Civil War was about freeing the slaves.
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RERomine
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

I guess I'm still missing the basis for what you are calling treason. Yes, the Federal government, lead by Lincoln, did "make" war on the rebellious portions of the country. One cannot wish rebellion away. It wasn't the first time a President had to use military force to suppress a rebellion.

Is the basis of your argument Lincoln made war on the United States, simply because North Carolina hadn't seceded yet? If that's the case, you argument states North Carolina basically could perform any acts of treason they desire, as long as they don't secede.

Or is this pertaining to the international interpretation that a blockade is generally considered to be an "act of war"? This might be a correct interpretation if North Carolina was considered to be a sovereign nation. Still, a blockade is not always always an "act of war". There are instances where one country blockaded another and no war resulted. The more important aspect of a formally declared blockade was it allowed the United States navy to inspect cargo on foriegn vessels in open seas. Blockade or not, it is the right of any sovereign nation to control and inspect traffic within their own waters.

Through all of this, where did Lincoln commit an act of war against the United States? Suppressing a rebellion within the United States is not treason. Blockading a state in rebellion, whether or not they have seceded is not treason. Lincoln didn't believe the ordinances of secession were worth the paper they were written on, so why on earth would he feel it necessary to wait for North Carolina to complete one?
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

I return once again to the end of the Rebellion of the USA against Britain, at the end of that rebellion the question of states who did not wish to secede from Britain and be a part of the USA (Vermont) was raised, and at that point it was made very clear that the states of the USA were indivisible. Vermont could not remain a part of Britain even if the majority of it's population wished to do so. Precident on secession I think, in the same way Vermont could not secede from the USA to remain part of the United Kingdom the other states could not secede to form the CSA. The decision regarding the states of the CSA was consistent with that from 1783 regarding Vermont.

The only rub there is the U.S. Constitution didn't go into effect until March 4, 1789. Many pro-crown colonist I think picked up and went to Canada somewhere along the line, solving some of the problems.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

I return once again to the end of the Rebellion of the USA against Britain, at the end of that rebellion the question of states who did not wish to secede from Britain and be a part of the USA (Vermont) was raised, and at that point it was made very clear that the states of the USA were indivisible. Vermont could not remain a part of Britain even if the majority of it's population wished to do so. Precident on secession I think, in the same way Vermont could not secede from the USA to remain part of the United Kingdom the other states could not secede to form the CSA. The decision regarding the states of the CSA was consistent with that from 1783 regarding Vermont.
I don't know who "... made very clear that the states of the USA were indivisible." Perhaps you could provide a reference so we can determine if they had the authority to make that claim.

Since Vermont did not become a state of the USA until 1791 then it was not bound by the decisions of that Union until that point. In the meantime you might want to see what Vermont plans for the future ...

Vermont to secede from USA?
/Greyshaft
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Twotribes »

The Civil War was NOT about freeing the Slaves. Lincoln was quite clear on that point. That occurred only because it helped prevent Europe from aiding the Rebelling states. Lincoln was quite clear, he would do what ever it took to maintain the Union, and THAT was his JOB. It is the job of EVERY President.

Trying to claim that by "invading" a rebelling State one commits treason is on its FACE ridiculous. I notice we got no answer to the question... If the federal Government can ONLY act if the Governor asks for it, what happens when in fact the Governor is the one rebelling?

And trying to twist it to ignore the other 2 questions wont work either. The claim is made that ONLY if the Governor or legislature request Federal assistance can troops of the Federal military provide security, protection or do anyhting other than train and exsist on Federal Reservations. When the President mobilized , activated and ordered National Guard troops to enforce the desegregation of the South in the early 60's was THIS an act of treason? The Governor and the State Legislature SPECIFICALLY refused to enforce the desegregation and was opposed to Federal Forces being used to enforce it.

Lincoln was in fact acting to PRESERVE the Union, that is NOT treason. In the specific case of North Carolina , they were in active rebellion, even if one assumed the claim they could leave the union was correct, NC siezed Federal Property BEFORE they "withdrew" from the Union. Clearly an act of rebellion. To further claim that when the Governor and legislature of the State are responsible FOR that rebellion the Fedrel Government can not act because the rebelling "authorities" havent ask them too is LUDICROUS.

What next? Gonna claim that since a bank robber hasnt agreed to be arrested, when he is, it is a violation of his rights?

President Lincoln acted on HIS power and also called for Congress to reconvene. Until such time as Congress did such, the President alone is responsible to make decisions regarding the conduct of all Federal Power, ensuring he protects the Union. And once Congress did reconvene it approved all his actions. So much for a claim of treason.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: keystone

What no one is hitting on is that this was a power struggle. The South wanted more slave states, more power for them. The South was losing it's power in Congress and were paranoid about abolitionists gaining ground in the North. If the South could acquire more Slave owning states they might be able to stem the tide. This was also a time when being a Virginian meant more than being an U.S. citizen. It wasn't just written law that mattered to most, but a feeling that no govt. should be able to tell a state, or person what to do. This is where Lincoln and many others differed, and Lincoln would (and did) do anything to keep the United States together. Does anyone remember what Lincoln did in Maryland? Anyone that thinks that the constitution at the time forbade succession also believes that the Civil War was about freeing the slaves.

This is one area where Lincoln was loose with the rules. Missouri is another were the rules were cast aside to a certain extent, but Lincoln wasn't as well informed about activities there.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Oldguard »

ORIGINAL: RERomine
The Supreme Court used Article IV of the Constitution when it declared secession illegal.
Article IV is a reach if you're arguing the illegality of secession - secession does not always and inevitably involve armed insurrection.

This is obviously still an emotional issue for some people - else we wouldn't have someone in this thread claiming ultimate knowledge of the Constitution without being able to cite supporting Articles (that's not a direct reference to you, RERomine). But the fact is that it was only settled by the results of armed conflict in the Civil War, which utterly destroyed the last vestiges of State Sovereignty in this nation and lead us to the Federal system we have today - right along with its Beltway politics and feeding-tube Federal aid to states that keeps them sedated like some kind of government version of the Matrix.

Sovereignty
The question whether the individual states, particularly the so-called 'Confederate States' of the American Union remained sovereign became a matter of debate in the USA, especially in its first century of existence:

According to the theory of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and John C. Calhoun, the states had entered into an agreement from which they might withdraw if other parties broke the terms of agreement, and they remained sovereign. These individuals contributed to the theoretical basis for acts of secession, as occurred just before the American Civil War. However, they propounded this as part of a general theory of "nullification," in which a state had the right to refuse to accept any Federal law that it found to be unconstitutional. These self-same southern states accepted that non-slave states had such nullificatory rights, but protested that the Federal government enforce the Fugitive Slave Act over any state's attempt to nullify it-- but only by sanction, never by military force. However the premises of the Act was explicit in the Constitution under Article IV, Section 2, which required that all prisoners or slaves who escaped into other states, must be returned to their state of origin. Some states argued that, in addition to violating the rights of the alleged slave, because the Constiution provided for no mechanism of enforcement by the federal government, it was reserved to the states,

Likewise, according to the theory put forth by James Madison in the Federalist Papers "each State, in ratifying the Constitution, was to be considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution [was to be] a federal, and not a national constitution." In the end, Madison likewise compromised with the Anti-federalists to modify the Constitution to protect state sovereignty: At the 1787 constitutional convention a proposal was made to allow the federal government to suppress a seceding state. James Madison rejected it saying, "A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound."

During the first half-century after the Constitution was ratified, the right of secession was asserted on several occasions, and various states considered secession (including, for example, the New England states during the War of 1812; in response, not a single state objected on the grounds that such was unlawful. It was not until later, c. 1830, that Andrew Jackson, Joseph Story, Daniel Webster and others began to publish the theory that secession was illegal, and that the United States was a supremely sovereign nation over the various member-states. These writers inspired Lincoln's later declaration that "no state may lawfully get out of the Union by its own mere motion", based on the premise that "the Union is older than the Constitution."

Modern legal scholars, however concur with Madison's initial claims that the states ratified the Constitution acting in the capacity of sovereign nations.

White v. Texas is more of a case regarding contract law and the power of a governor than it is specifically about the right to secede.

Link: White vs. Texas (U of Texas - SW Historical Society)


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Greyshaft
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: RERomine

I guess I'm still missing the basis for what you are calling treason. Yes, the Federal government, lead by Lincoln, did "make" war on the rebellious portions of the country...
OK we agree that Lincoln "made war" on North Carolina.
The Constitution calls that kind of behavior Treason in Article IV Section 4.
So Lincoln committed Treason.
Lincoln's motives may have been honorable and his actions justified from a particular political standpoint but it was still Treason.
I can't say it any simpler.
Lincoln was in fact acting to PRESERVE the Union, that is NOT treason.
Says who??? Show me the part of the constitution which says that a President may ignore Article IV Section 4 providing that he is acting to PRESERVE the union. All of the sections of the constitution are operative all of the time and the President must work within those rules.
Lincoln didn't do that. He assumed powers he was not entitled to assume. Another example of Lincoln's illegal actions was revealed when the Supreme Court overturned his suspension of habeas corpus (see link: Habeas Corpus )

Come on guys... please start providing some references for your statements or this discussion just becomes a "yes he was" "no he wasn't" "yes he was" exchange of dogma.

EDIT: Put bold on link
/Greyshaft
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

ORIGINAL: RERomine

I guess I'm still missing the basis for what you are calling treason. Yes, the Federal government, lead by Lincoln, did "make" war on the rebellious portions of the country...
OK we agree that Lincoln "made war" on North Carolina.
The Constitution calls that kind of behavior Treason in Article IV Section 4.
So Lincoln committed Treason.
Lincoln's motives may have been honorable and his actions justified from a particular political standpoint but it was still Treason.
I can't say it any simpler.

The Militia Act of 1792 gave Lincoln all the legal authority necessary to perform the actions he performed.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm
Paper Tiger
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Paper Tiger »

Rough crossings by Simon Sharma ISBN 0-563-49365-8
Chapter 5
The person raising the question of "whether, in the event of states disagreeing with Congress, they could be allowed to go their own way" (Vermont) being raised by General Carlton of the British and the response being from Governor Clinton.

For anyone who doesn't know Sharma he is one of the top contemporary historians, he does a lot of work for the BBC and pretty much anything he does is worth reading or watching for anyone with an interest in history.
From a personnal point of view I have not read that much regarding the American Civil War or indeed the rebellion and I picked this book up more for it's references to the early work of abolitionists in the United Kingdom, including Granville Sharp who hails from the same area of the UK as myself. The passage regarding a state having the right to leave secede from the USA stuck in my mind for some reason and when this topic came up here I referenced the book and found what I was looking for.
Sufficient to say that in 1783 it was made quite clear that the USA was a club that an individual state could not unilaterally leave. (even if as has been pointed out the state had not formally joined at that point.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: RERomine

The Militia Act of 1792 gave Lincoln all the legal authority necessary to perform the actions he performed.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

Here is section 1 of that act...
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States, to call forth such number of the militia of the state or states most convenient to the place of danger or scene of action as he may judge necessary to repel such invasion, and to issue his orders for that purpose, to such officer or officers of the militia as he shall think proper; and in case of an insurrection in any state, against the government thereof, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States, on application of the legislature of such state, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) to call forth such number of the militia of any other state or states, as may be applied for, or as he may judge sufficient to suppress such insurrection.



1. Was this a situation where "... the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe," Absolutely not. The CSA had made it clear that they had no territorial designs on the other states. Besides which, Lincoln claimed that they never seceded so how could he view them as a 'foreign nation'?

2. "...and in case of an insurrection in any state, against the government thereof," makes it very clear that the insurrection must be against the STATE government (which it wasn't in the case of North Carolina) and that the STATE government must make an application for assistance (which never happened).

This Act doesn't support your case.
The person raising the question of "whether, in the event of states disagreeing with Congress, they could be allowed to go their own way" (Vermont) being raised by General Carlton of the British and the response being from Governor Clinton.

Sufficient to say that in 1783 it was made quite clear that the USA was a club that an individual state could not unilaterally leave. (even if as has been pointed out the state had not formally joined at that point.
The governor of a state does not have the authority to interpret the constitution in a manner that is binding on all of the states. He is entitled to his personal opinion but it is no more valid than yours or mine. I was hoping you could quote a judge of the Supreme Court or one of the authors of the Constitution or one of the signatories to the constitution.
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Greyshaft
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by Greyshaft »

I encourage people to visit this link. It shows that the right to secession was claimed by some states as a condition of joining the USA. If the USA did not acknowledge that right then it could not have accepted them as members.

For example, Virginia's ratification of the US Constitution began like this...

We the Delegates of the People of Virginia duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us to decide thereon Do in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will: that therefore no right of any denomination can be cancelled abridged restrained or modified by the Congress by the Senate or House of Representatives acting in any Capacity by the President or any Department or Officer of the United States except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes ...

These are the words of the people who signed the Constitution into law for Virginia. It is clear that they claimed the right to revoke that agreement whenever they chose and that they were only joining the USA on the condition that they retained that right. That right was not challenged by the rest of the states for over seventy years until Lincoln became President.

/Greyshaft
RERomine
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

This Act doesn't support your case.

Actually, it does. Don't forget section 2 of the Militia Act:

Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act, the same being notified to the President of the United States, by an associate justice or the district judge, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States to call forth the militia of such state to suppress such combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. And if the militia of a state, where such combinations may happen, shall refuse, or be insufficient to suppress the same, it shall be lawful for the President, if the legislature of the United States be not in session, to call forth and employ such numbers of the militia of any other state or states most convenient thereto, as may be necessary, and the use of militia, so to be called forth, may be continued, if necessary, until the expiration of thirty days after the commencement of the ensuing session.

Forget my or your interpretation of the act. The Militia Act of 1792 was used by President Washington in 1794 to field a militia force of 13,000 volunteers to put down the Whiskey Rebellion.

No secession was involved. A president fielded troops and entered a state of the Union, without invitation of the state governor, to put the rebellion down. Sounds very much like the situation we've been discussing about North Carolina and it set the precedence for how the Federal government may react to rebellion. It also helped define treason, allowing citizens to disagree with the government without them being defined as traitors.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Oldguard

White v. Texas is more of a case regarding contract law and the power of a governor than it is specifically about the right to secede.

Link: White vs. Texas (U of Texas - SW Historical Society)

Quite true, but the U.S. Supreme Court used the decision to determine the legality of secession, once and for all. Part of that decision was that Texas had not left the Union because it had no legal right to do so.
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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by RERomine »

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
The person raising the question of "whether, in the event of states disagreeing with Congress, they could be allowed to go their own way" (Vermont) being raised by General Carlton of the British and the response being from Governor Clinton.

Sufficient to say that in 1783 it was made quite clear that the USA was a club that an individual state could not unilaterally leave. (even if as has been pointed out the state had not formally joined at that point.
The governor of a state does not have the authority to interpret the constitution in a manner that is binding on all of the states. He is entitled to his personal opinion but it is no more valid than yours or mine. I was hoping you could quote a judge of the Supreme Court or one of the authors of the Constitution or one of the signatories to the constitution.

I believe we agree on something [:D]

You probably could have stopped with "The governor of a state does not have the authority to interpret the constitution period"

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RE: Secession, right or wrong?

Post by AU Tiger_MatrixForum »

This is like watching CSPAN.
[>:]
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