Game is not broken, History is!

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Gilbert
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Gilbert »

ORIGINAL: Captain



This thread actually made me dust off some of my old history books on Midway. Part of the reason why the attacks were so devastating was because the Kaga, Akagi and Soryu had planes on their decks and hangar being rearmed.

Soryu had its second strike on the flight deck armed and fueled and was turning into the wind to launch when it was jumped by US SBDs. Again, 5-10 minutes more and most of those planes are on their way to strike the US CVs.

Hi Captain,
This is an old Midway Battle myth. According to John Parshall & Anthony Tully's book "Shattered Sword" there were no planes on deck on any CVs, but a few CAP Kansen.

regards
Gilbert
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Captain
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Captain »

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

ORIGINAL: Captain



This thread actually made me dust off some of my old history books on Midway. Part of the reason why the attacks were so devastating was because the Kaga, Akagi and Soryu had planes on their decks and hangar being rearmed.

Soryu had its second strike on the flight deck armed and fueled and was turning into the wind to launch when it was jumped by US SBDs. Again, 5-10 minutes more and most of those planes are on their way to strike the US CVs.

Hi Captain,
This is an old Midway Battle myth. According to John Parshall & Anthony Tully's book "Shattered Sword" there were no planes on deck on any CVs, but a few CAP Kansen.

regards
Gilbert

my info is from S.E. Morison's 15 vol. "History of the U.S. naval operations in WW2" which states that all 3 IJN CVs were in the midst of rearming/refueling their planes. The information on the Soryu is from the interrogation of the executive officer of the Soryu who survived the war. Morison has a lot of faults, but is usually precise about these type of facts.

I am not familiar with Parshall and Tully. What new info did they uncover to come to that conclusion?


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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Captain

This thread actually made me dust off some of my old history books on Midway. Part of the reason why the attacks were so devastating was because the Kaga, Akagi and Soryu had planes on their decks and hangar being rearmed ...

Were any of these books written by a former IJN officer and Midway survivor named Fuchida?
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Gilbert
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Gilbert »

ORIGINAL: Captain
ORIGINAL: Gilbert

ORIGINAL: Captain



This thread actually made me dust off some of my old history books on Midway. Part of the reason why the attacks were so devastating was because the Kaga, Akagi and Soryu had planes on their decks and hangar being rearmed.

Soryu had its second strike on the flight deck armed and fueled and was turning into the wind to launch when it was jumped by US SBDs. Again, 5-10 minutes more and most of those planes are on their way to strike the US CVs.

Hi Captain,
This is an old Midway Battle myth. According to John Parshall & Anthony Tully's book "Shattered Sword" there were no planes on deck on any CVs, but a few CAP Kansen.

regards
Gilbert

my info is from S.E. Morison's 15 vol. "History of the U.S. naval operations in WW2" which states that all 3 IJN CVs were in the midst of rearming/refueling their planes. The information on the Soryu is from the interrogation of the executive officer of the Soryu who survived the war. Morison has a lot of faults, but is usually precise about these type of facts.

I am not familiar with Parshall and Tully. What new info did they uncover to come to that conclusion?



They have mainly studied the official Japanese war histories (Senshi Sosho) and interviewed many veterans of the battle. According to the latter, "No armed and fueled aircraft were on deck but in the hangars when Akagi, Kaga and Soryu were struck". OTOH, Senshi Sosho analysis "left no doubt that Nagumo's counterstrike was far from being ready when the fatal American dive-bomber attack occured"
"This directly called into question the fateful five minutes rendition that Fuchida had put forth, and in the eyes of most knowledgeable observers in Japan, he was discredited"
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Vladd
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Vladd »

Shattered Sword is the best western account - by a country mile - of the Japanese perspective on events. It's a recent release, is meticulous in approach and does present new evidence.

Highly recommended, Captain...
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Vladd

Shattered Sword is the best western account - by a country mile - of the Japanese perspective on events. It's a recent release, is meticulous in approach and does present new evidence ...

New for the West: the Japanese knew the actual account for abt a quarter of a century; see http://www.combinedfleet.com/MidwayBook.htm
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Caractacus »

ORIGINAL: fbs

Alright, then I change my election to the torpedo on Bismarck's rudder. That was like roll 20 twice on d20.

The Swordfish that were sent on the last ditch attack on the Bismark before she escaped also cocked-up and launched at a British cruiser on the way. When they did, all of their magnetic torpedoes malfunctioned or exploded on contact with the water.

This forced them to return to the carrier with just enough time to re-arm with old fashioned contact torps. They managed to make it back to Bismark in time to score that critical hit with a contact torp.

So I vote that the preceeding unlikely mistake which made the fatal fluke possible equals rolling 20 four times on a d20 [:)]

Can I add Marathon, Agincourt, the defeat of the Ottomans at Malta, and pretty much the whole of the First Crusade to the list?
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by bradfordkay »

ORIGINAL: baghdadbob

The strangest of all was when the USS Nimitz appeared out of nowhere near Hawaii just before the IJN attack on Pearl Harbor...[:D]


In one way this movie really disappointed me. I really wanted to see the expressions on the faces of the american sailors when the Nimitz pulled into Pearl Harbor for resupply after the attack...
fair winds,
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Vladd »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

[New for the West: the Japanese knew the actual account for abt a quarter of a century; see http://www.combinedfleet.com/MidwayBook.htm

Indeed. It was new to me, anyway [:)]
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by gladiatt »


ORIGINAL: Knavey

I did look at every one of them. In wiki, but still got a good idea of the battles. Fascinating set of battles you have listed there. Its no wonder I haven't heard of any of them. A couple I recognize the results (probably from reading about that particular battle somewhere) but I could not associate the name with the results nor even the opponents.

The really sad part was that I translated Ceasars "Commentaries on the Gallic Wars" in Latin class and did not remember the Battle of Alesia...of course, that was 25 years ago and many turns of WitP/AE so please forgive me on that one.

Thanks for the history lesson though!

a quick reply to Knavey before i let you guys read all the stuff about Midway and else.
Of course Knavey,you are forgiven if you didn't knew at start what these battles were. I try as best as i can to respect people, and those who don't know what I know earn respect too ( when saying this i am not thinking of anyone particular on the forum, rather stupid people in my family); and of course people know things that i don't know.
I am much pleased to have learn you a little bit, and i give you a warm salute [:)]
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by gladiatt »

ORIGINAL: Caractacus

Can I add Marathon, Agincourt, the defeat of the Ottomans at Malta, and pretty much the whole of the First Crusade to the list?

good choice of examples [&o]
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Vladd

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

[New for the West: the Japanese knew the actual account for abt a quarter of a century; see http://www.combinedfleet.com/MidwayBook.htm

Indeed. It was new to me, anyway [:)]

Although I live in New England on the East Coast, from Japan we're all "the West"; if it wasn't for the work of the authors of Shattered Sword we'd all still marvel at the myth of the "Miracle at Midway".
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by fbs »

If there is one really freak incident, that was Doolittle's B-25 bomber flying flying so close to the transport aircraft carrying General Tojo's on Apr 18 1942, that one of Tojo's secretaries could "see the face of the pilot flying that aircraft".

The B-25 could actually have shot him down. I wonder what the Japanese would have thought of the Cosmic Random Number Generator if their prime minister was shot down on the very first raid on Japan [:D]

Thanks,
fbs

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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Captain »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


New for the West: the Japanese knew the actual account for abt a quarter of a century; see http://www.combinedfleet.com/MidwayBook.htm

I read the article. The authors have an interesting theory and it is well argued. However, at least in my case, it raises more question. As I understand it, the basic premise is that previous accounts were flawed because they relied too much on the USSBS interrogation of japanese officers ("USSBS"), Nagumo's report ("NR")and Fuchida's 1955 book, with emphasis on the latter.

Not to turn this into a batlle of historians, but Morison first published his Midway book in 49 and 1st revised it in 53. He relied primarily on USSBS and NR. In his 2nd revised edition dated 59 which is the one I have, he acknowledges having read Fuchida's book to doublecheck his Midway chapter although Fuchida is not quoted as a source. USSBS and NR remained his primary sources.

The problem every historian has faced trying to write the story of Midway from the Japanese side is the fact that all of the logs from the 4 CVs were lost and many of IJN officers involved did not survive the war.

Let's look at one of the main issue, namely whether any planes were on the CVs deck during the crucial 0730 - 1020 period.

Morison states that at 0730, a ready force of 93 planes were on the decks ready to take off. Patch and Tully state that they must have been in the hangars based on IJN carrier doctrine. This may well be true, Morison does not quote a source. It may have been a misunderstanding by the US authors as to how IJN CVs worked.

As additional proof, they use a reconstituted log of Akagi's flight operations pulled from the NR which shows fighters taking off and being recovered regularly as proof that no dive or torpedo bombers could have been on the deck during that period.

You can find the report here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/I ... ay/Nagumo/

the important bit is here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/I ... umo/#III-2

you have to look at June 5th since the fleet used Tokyo time. The important part is that the log only mentions flights from the Akagi, there is no mention of the other 3 CVs. The authors presume the 3 other CVs were doing the exact same thing, but there is no documentation of their flight activities. The other problem when dealing with the NR is that no one knows under what conditions it was written since Nagumo did not survive the war. It appears to have been written purely from memory, so no one knows how accurate it is.

Again if we move on to the period just before the attack, the authors state that there would have been no planes on the decks except fighters when the SBDs attacked. Morison mentions nothing about planes on the Akagi, presumably because he had no info. He states that Kaga had about 40 planes being fueled and armed. The source appears to be capt. Aoki of the Kaga. The Soryu is supposed to be turning into the wind to launch a strike. The souce for this is Capt. Ohara, the executive officer of Soryu. This is more of an issue for me since Morison quotes actual eyewitness accounts while Patch and Tully again appear to be relying primarily on their log.

I dont know if the book contains more supporting documentation, but would be interested in finding out. So far I do not find their evidence to be as solid as they make it out to be.
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Captain

... The problem every historian has faced trying to write the story of Midway from the Japanese side is the fact that all of the logs from the 4 CVs were lost and many of IJN officers involved did not survive the war.

But the flight logs did survive; a chronolgy of IJ fighter operations and a consolidated operational log of all 4 IJN CVs is published in the appendices of Shattered Sword.
ORIGINAL: Captain
Let's look at one of the main issue, namely whether any planes were on the CVs deck during the crucial 0730 - 1020 period.

Morison states that at 0730, a ready force of 93 planes were on the decks ready to take off. Patch and Tully state that they must have been in the hangars based on IJN carrier doctrine. This may well be true, Morison does not quote a source ...

Senior officers Lt. Dick Best and Lt. Cdr Maxwell Leslie reported few if any planes on the IJN CV decks during their attacks.

These and other eye witness accounts are all documented in Sword's Chapter 12 -- The Fallacious Five Minutes - 1020-1025
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Captain »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

But the flight logs did survive; a chronolgy of IJ fighter operations and a consolidated operational log of all 4 IJN CVs is published in the appendices of Shattered Sword.

That is interesting. If they have uncovered new documents, it would interesting to pick up the book just to see what all the fuss is about...

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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by Fishbed »

Documents were there - no-one cared about translating them into English before though.

Buy the book and come back to us afterwards Captain, very nice reading. Read it in a matter of days, that's just pure fun [8D]
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Captain
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
But the flight logs did survive; a chronolgy of IJ fighter operations and a consolidated operational log of all 4 IJN CVs is published in the appendices of Shattered Sword.

That is interesting. If they have uncovered new documents, it would interesting to pick up the book just to see what all the fuss is about...

For us, the "'fuss" is about historical accuracey, but for the wounded Japanese warriors of Midway, it proved an additional price they were forced to pay to maintain a state-sponsored fiction: they were returned to Japan under tight security and forbidden all outside contacts until they could be "healed, heartened, hushed and reassigned" in that order.

In practice, many of these wounded were sequestered in clinics -- where they were shamed by their own med staff -- to keep the destruction of the Kido Butai a secret. They were eventually shipped back to the Pacific from where many would never return w/o any leave, thus never saying a final goodbye to their families.

The Japanese public was informed that Midway was a great victory; they were given a "revised" IJN damage list of 1 CV sunk and 1 CV and 1 CA damaged w/the loss of only 35 AC.
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by JeffroK »

I hope that relying on Shattered Sword does not led us into another era of being misled.

The new book is very interesting, and clears up a lot of misunderstood  areas.

But it also needs time and other researchers to review and possibly challenge it.

Re the comment that the IJN plan for Miday was flawed is spot on. IFF everything went right at sea, and the IJN
made it to Midway, they were not capable of landing and capturing the island.
IFF they just went to draw out the USN CV force they totally botched the operation.
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RE: Game is not broken, History is!

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

... IFF they just went to draw out the USN CV force they totally botched the operation.

Well, the Kido Butai did draw out the USN CVs, they just drew them out sooner than they anticpated.

Of course, one can argue it was breaking the IJ code that drew the USN's CVs to Midway.
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