Making Money in 1.04

[Sliverine]

how about programming the AI to stop going into a colonization frenzy? Maybe make it such that if there are 4 or more worlds (out of the list) whos population/development is not past a certain level, the AI will not attempt to colonize any other worlds? Its not a very clever fix since that means that the AI will absolutely not colonize any other world regardless of strategic value or whatnot (even if another world has loros fruit AND korobbian spice on it). To make it more intuitive the AI can then be further programmed with further options such as a drastic want to colonize any planet that is extremely valuable regardless of development level of other colonies. Possibly maybe implement some fuzzy logic that takes into account distance of new colonies and current empire income etc. as direct factors to the final decision value?

[deanco2]

My game with 1.04:

I am managing to stay in the black, able to rush research and trade/buy  tech from other civs from time to time and still have 100k in the bank.  I'm not rolling in cash, but I'm steady.

I have Hive Mind as gov, one of the warlike civs, can't remember which.

250 star map, everything set more or less to normal, start with 1 colony and beginning tech.

My strategy: everything that costs money, I set to manual.  I choose the ships to build, the troops, colonies, and the spies.  I make a 'purchase' when my econ is not only positive, but has been positive for 15-20 min or so.  At that point, I will buy my new fleet or make sure there are enough troops on my planets, etc.  I then wait to see what happens with the cash.

I control the cost of mining bases by controlling how many construction ships I have, which are all on auto, except one, which I use to make gas stations and research.  I have 9-10 colonies right now, and just now bought my 3rd 'auto' constructor.  The AI can't bankrupt you if you can only build mines so fast.  I'm guessing that is the main problem with the AI, it doesn't look at the profit/loss before heading out to make another mine.

Also very careful about new colonies, only do a couple at a time, once again wait to see what happens with the cash.

Of course, I'm far from winning the game (in 5th), but I do have a positive cash flow. 

Hope this helps.

[Fishman]

I think this perception of "harder economy = harder game" may be actually be counterproductive. Consider: If the economy is harder, and the automated systems are not coping with it, you are forced to micromanage it. However, the AI can't micromanage it, so if the AI ends up suffering much more, the game will actually become easier, because AIs are generally much worse at coping with complex resource-scarcity management problems than humans are. If cash is easy to get, the human player may get disgustingly rich easily, but the AI will also be rich enough to handle itself.

[Sliverine]

ORIGINAL: deanco2

Of course, I'm far from winning the game (in 5th), but I do have a positive cash flow. 

How is the AI considered lousy? When entirely AI controlled opponents manage to supersede you (who micromanaged) in galactic ranking?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: sanderz

ORIGINAL: jscott991
It still astonishes me, however, that it is almost impossible to tell what colonies are netting revenue and what colonies are costing it.

Is the above statement true or not? Cos i have the same problem in that i can't find enough info to make informed decisions.

The colony screen shows you how much revenue you are getting from each colony and the empire screen shows you your total revenue and costs, so it seems pretty straightforward to me that you can see which colonies are generating revenue. Most of the costs cannot be attributed to a single colony though, so they are aggregated at an empire level, but it's a fair bet that a colony with 0k revenue is effectively costing you money.

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: sanderz

ORIGINAL: jscott991
It still astonishes me, however, that it is almost impossible to tell what colonies are netting revenue and what colonies are costing it.

Is the above statement true or not? Cos i have the same problem in that i can't find enough info to make informed decisions.

The colony screen shows you how much revenue you are getting from each colony and the empire screen shows you your total revenue and costs, so it seems pretty straightforward to me that you can see which colonies are generating revenue. Most of the costs cannot be attributed to a single colony though, so they are aggregated at an empire level, but it's a fair bet that a colony with 0k revenue is effectively costing you money.

how about things like mines - it seems i can't tell before i build something whether it will be profitable, and even after its built you can't tell how its performing or even if its needed at all

apologies if i am missing something here but i am struggling to see how to make informed decisons on what to build and when

[Erik Rutins]

Mines don't actually generate income directly and you can pull up their design before building them to see what their maintenance cost will be. You need them if you have a resource that is increasing in price due to scarce demand, then a mine will be well worthwhile as it effectively lowers the cost of that resource once it starts feeding into the distribution network. Sometimes having a new mine in a nice strategically close position can also help speed things up, if you only have one source of a resource and it's far away.

[SiempreCiego]

@ Jscott

just looking at the images you supplied. I noticed that of your 29 colonies you only have 11 spaceports in total. Build a small space port at every colony.
colonies with no space port can only have one private ship docked at a time. Alos fewer space ports mean that private ship contruction is substantially slower.
If you build a small spaceport at each colony you should see a substantial dip in revenue at first, but it will stimulate demand for certain resources, ship production and general commerce.

[deanco2]

ORIGINAL: Sliverine

ORIGINAL: deanco2

Of course, I'm far from winning the game (in 5th), but I do have a positive cash flow. 

How is the AI considered lousy? When entirely AI controlled opponents manage to supersede you (who micromanaged) in galactic ranking?

Sorry, where did I say that the AI was lousy?

Rereading, I said the AI tends to keep building mines without regards to your income, but I didn't say 'lousy'.

Perhaps you are replying to someone else?

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: sanderz

ORIGINAL: jscott991
It still astonishes me, however, that it is almost impossible to tell what colonies are netting revenue and what colonies are costing it.

Is the above statement true or not? Cos i have the same problem in that i can't find enough info to make informed decisions.

The colony screen shows you how much revenue you are getting from each colony and the empire screen shows you your total revenue and costs, so it seems pretty straightforward to me that you can see which colonies are generating revenue. Most of the costs cannot be attributed to a single colony though, so they are aggregated at an empire level, but it's a fair bet that a colony with 0k revenue is effectively costing you money.

If this is true and any colony that is making even 1k in revenue is "netting" money, then I am completely flabbergasted why everyone in this thread is railing against rapid expansion.

There has to be a way that colonies that say they are producing tax revenue aren't actually "netting" revenue. That way is pretty simple: colonies have troops, freighters, starports, and patrol ships associated with them. The cost of troops, starports, and freighters are directly associated with the colony. Plus are the costs of resources mined on the planet factored into its revenue cost in the colony screen? I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

So the colony screen is telling you next to nothing except tax revenue. A heck of a lot more goes into whether a colony is profitable and anything resource-related is pretty cleverly hidden from the players view.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: SiempreCiego

@ Jscott

just looking at the images you supplied. I noticed that of your 29 colonies you only have 11 spaceports in total. Build a small space port at every colony.
colonies with no space port can only have one private ship docked at a time. Alos fewer space ports mean that private ship contruction is substantially slower.
If you build a small spaceport at each colony you should see a substantial dip in revenue at first, but it will stimulate demand for certain resources, ship production and general commerce.

The empire in my screen shots was fully automated. If there are not enough spaceports, it is because the AI chose not to build them.

[Gertjan]

However, the AI can't micromanage it, so if the AI ends up suffering much more, the game will actually become easier, because AIs are generally much worse at coping with complex resource-scarcity management problems than humans are. If cash is easy to get, the human player may get disgustingly rich easily, but the AI will also be rich enough to handle itself.

 
I am also worried about this.

[SiempreCiego]

really????

you literally did nothing?

that is interesting. I wonder if its due to the government selection? maybe the AI automates as if the gov is democracy/republic?

Erik is that possible?

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: SiempreCiego

really????

you literally did nothing?

that is interesting. I wonder if its due to the government selection? maybe the AI automates as if the gov is democracy/republic?

Erik is that possible?

You can set the AI to control your empire at all levels under options (it's called something like ruling in absence).

As for why this happened, it's because the AI has certain priorities that don't seem to work that well under 1.04's harsher economic model.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Sliverine

i think the most important thing here is to limit your expansion. You mostly start out with one pretty developed world along with 3 other worlds in the same system as you that you can immediately colonize. You should then look to getting a constant supply of 4 (or more) luxury goods (of which 2 should be already in your starting system) to further your development. If im not wrong i read somewhere that when worlds have a supply of more then 4 luxury goods they start to develop. Fully developing worlds is the important thing here. Its better to have 4 fully developed worlds bringing you loads of income rather then 39 poorly developed ones fighting for their share of development essential luxury goods and with that one developed world being your sole source of income (i.e. your capital). Therefore, in a nutshell, expand slowly but surely!

that is prioritizing, not limiting... I still expand the same as before... I build as many ships as I can afford as fast as possible... I just send them to a planet with 1 luxury good over a planet with 5 ship building goods.
Because ship building goods is useless for the economy AND will be acquired easily anyways (via being on planets with luxury goods, or via mining)

[Warspite3]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The economic changes are probably here to stay, so while bugs might be ironed out in 1.04, the core of the patch, I think, is set.

With that being said and acknowledging that I'm an inexperienced player, I find the game a touch too challenging at the moment and need to know more about how I'm supposed to be making money. I started 3 1.04 games last night and each one kind of "crapped out"; I was bankrupt within 5 years.

So, how do you make money? How much micromanaging is really necessary? (Hopefully, not much. I would hate for 1.04 to have changed the economic system to make it harder for micromanagers and now it requires the micromanaging that the game touts is unnecessary.)

My strategy in 1.03 (and so far in 1.04) is to colonize pretty much every world I find, with particular attention to alien populations (which I set to rare). I try to focus my construction ships on resources with either empire or galactic priority, but I'm not all that familiar with how resources actually relate to making money. My construction ships are on auto. My ship construction is on suggest. I usually deny the suggestions. My fleet is quite small; construction ships actually take up far more maintenance than anything else.

I've noticed my resort and shipyard income fluctuates wildly. I assume that's intentional. My taxes are set to auto, and actually stay pretty steady.

I turn pirates off and monsters to the lowest setting. I play with few alien empires and put them all normal or distant.

So, what am I doing wrong? How do you set up a successful economy in the beginning of the game?

So you want to be rich? No? How about a multi-millionair king of the stars? Yes? Ok read this thread... [;)]

tm.asp?m=2438984

No seriously, it seems it is possibly to get into trouble as the game goes on relying on this to make you money. Although I done this one game pretty effectively, not sure how well it will work when I start a new game. Guess I will find out. In the end, do keep selling techs in mind to make some money if you are strapped but best if you have a strong economy to start with.

[ceyan]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

If this is true and any colony that is making even 1k in revenue is "netting" money, then I am completely flabbergasted why everyone in this thread is railing against rapid expansion.

There has to be a way that colonies that say they are producing tax revenue aren't actually "netting" revenue. That way is pretty simple: colonies have troops, freighters, starports, and patrol ships associated with them. The cost of troops, starports, and freighters are directly associated with the colony. Plus are the costs of resources mined on the planet factored into its revenue cost in the colony screen? I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

So the colony screen is telling you next to nothing except tax revenue. A heck of a lot more goes into whether a colony is profitable and anything resource-related is pretty cleverly hidden from the players view.

I was wondering where you got the idea that Colonies cost something. Colonies have troops on them, but the troops are completely mobile, so they aren't associated with a colony. Freighters are completely independent from colonies, if a "colony" has one its simply because they're waiting in orbit for a job/mission. Starports may exist in line with a colony, but they're by no means required to do so, so they aren't directly tied to a colony. And resource revenue is generated (as far as I understand) via direct trade, unless there is some abstract mechanism by which a colony sells its goods without having to transport them (in which case I'm not aware of it). Worse still is the fact that all the stuff you mentioned has separate individual expense lines in the Empire Summary page, so I'm not exactly sure how in the world you go the idea that they're tied to a colonies prosperity.

So while you may have a point that it could be possible to get more granular about expenses, you're barking up the wrong tree on this issue. Colonies are the easiest thing in the game to determine how much money they're making.

Edit:
I suppose, to put it in more direct (and IMO better) wording, you're looking for a breakdown of total expenses at lower levels. Maybe instead of Empire wide, have the ability to say System X is making Y but costing Z between all resources within it. But then again, how would you factor in the profit from trade into that equation? That's always been my biggest question with the economy, trying to associate my trade dollars with something.

[taltamir]

if anything, rapid colony building can help offset the costly and useless mining bases the AI builds

But while extra colonies don't have anything to do with freighters, they have everything to do with the construction of space ports... which are costly to maintain. (and happen automatically if you enabled it)

[Resan]

What I would like, is a way to see how much of a resource my empire are currently using. As far as I understande, the demand number is unfiled demand. This doesn't really tell me if my luxury resource productioncan cope with another colony or not. Or if I'm mining just enough steel or way to much, I only see it when I'm mining too little.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Resan

What I would like, is a way to see how much of a resource my empire are currently using. As far as I understande, the demand number is unfiled demand. This doesn't really tell me if my luxury resource productioncan cope with another colony or not. Or if I'm mining just enough steel or way to much, I only see it when I'm mining too little.

go to expansion planner, it gives you exact amounts.