ORIGINAL: janh
Let's see whether we can disentangle that.
ORIGINAL: janh
Isn't the purpose of a game (also like this) to test possibilities, things that didn't happen by could have happened under the right circumstances?
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
But you're not testing possibilities, since you have no way of knowing or even predicting the results. This isn't science. In other words, someone needs to decide beforehand the effect of adding extra fighters to the home front, in order to code the parameters into the game. This element is the contentious bit, and I would argue, largely futile as well.
I'd say you are clearly wrong here. If the engine would or will be programmed to handle "possibilities" outside the historic path, then you can call it a simulation program for such eventualities and test what effect they could have had.
But you're not testing what effect they would have had, your testing what effect Gary and Joel think they would have had. Everything you do will be interpreted by the programme.
This is indeed science, and it is exactly what we are doing if we compute the properties of some local minimum structure of a molecule or material, which experimentally is -- presently -- not synthesizable. The question is only how good your quantum chemical approximations in your code are.
No idea what this means....
Of course that would mean there would have to be some sort of inclusion of the air war over the Reich.
Yes, but there is absolutely nothing the German player can do to alter the course of the air war. The most significant event for the German player in the western air war is when the Allied player switches large numbers of heavy bombers to targets in the occupied territories to prepare for Overlord. It isn't anything the Germans actually did. You really are just shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic.
I would favor even the very simple way it was in WiR, it added quite some new level for me. Or turning the whole argument upside down, one could state that "simulating a War on the Russian front in an entirely disconnected fashion from the western fronts, air war, or polito-economic developments in the Reich would be a very far reaching, simplification."
But it isn't disonnected. No doubt units are withdrawn as they were in real life to deploy to Italy, France and the skies over the Reich.
But imagine you allow a faster R&D,
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Why would we "imagine" that? On what grounds was faster R&D possible?
Argument above -- because we don't just want to replay history. In that case I prefer books.
This is the crux of the argument for every player who wants this sort of feature. Wherever you see it, you get Panthers in 1940 (eg HOI). It's pointless and completely ahistorical. You don't want to replay history, so the solution is ahistorical (unhistorical) R&D. Scrap the PZ111 and go for more Tigers.or scrap the Tiger and go for more PV IV.
The fact the Germans didn't have the necessary fuel to keep the tanks they had (never mind more) going, or the necessary steel to produce more hulls is conveniently ignored. This is an operational game, not a tactical one. The Germans were hopelessly outclassed in tank design in 1941, but won a series of stunning operational victories. Equipment has a part to play, but it's not
that important.
and assume the 262 would have not have been delayed by Hitlers weird fighter-bomber ideas, but been available for mass production as a fighter already in 1943?
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Hitler's "weird fight bomber ideas" were the least of the 262's problems. It's engines lasted about ten hours before frying. The Germans didn't have the raw materials and special metals needed to "mass-produce" the engines for this weapon. They produced about as many as they could so start date is a bit beside the point. This is where these sort of strategic decisions enter the realm of fantasy. People want to "increase" R&D, devote resources from Ju-88 production to bring forward the arrival time of the ME-262 without telling us where the rare metal for the engines or the fuel will come from. The 262 would never, under any circumstances, have been available for mass production.
Now, it is possible since you obviously can imagine that it could have put into service.
I can "imagine" it, but I can "imagine" the Wehrmacht invading armed with Leopard IIs. The point is what was historically feasible, and with the 262, the Germans got out of it about all they were likely to.
However, with initially crappy reliability (which is modelled in this engine). Put it in game and try whether you are just going to waste your efforts!? BTW, I don't buy the resource argument. The engines didn't require "rare metals". But they were indeed quite complicated and required a very high level of maintenance. Imagine you manage to hold southern Russia into the Steppes by mid 1942, and keep that throughout 1943. I find that would be a satisfying argument to allow for the German player extra resources.
But how are you going to build them? The Germans tested it extensively into 1944, and found problem after problem after problem. Then the Allies got at the production centres which had to be relocated. The engines needed overhauling after 10 hours and replacing after 25. Fuel was all but non-existant. Pilots were scarce and replacements poorly trained. Accidents were the norm rather than the exception. You could argue that the German player can solve some of these problems by holding the Caucasus into 1944, but if the German player manages this, I suspect he won't need the 262 to win.
Maybe the first series production could have engine troubles etc, but to me it sounds extremely interesting to figure out whether that would have been the roof that was needed in order to stabilize fighting in the east?
They all had engine trouble. Besides, the Germans were never really troubled by Soviet air power the way they were in the west. Likewise, 10 squadrons of magically created 262s would not have stabilised the eastern front.
ORIGINAL: IronDuke
No problem with this, provided we understand we are fantasising. The 262 was defeated for three key reasons. The Germans never had the fuel or experienced Pilots to fly them in great numbers. The Germans lacked the raw materials to produce them in any great numbers. The Allies quickly learned they were sitting ducks when landing, and so took to loitering over their airfields waiting for the turkey shoot. Therefore, whatever the roof was, the Germans were incapable of reaching it, unless you throw historicity to the wind and decide they discovered a precious metals mine in Berlin whilst digging the bunker.
Again, we are really not fantasizing if it is being modeled correctly. I agree with the pilot shortage, and you could bring them into squadrons with very low experience, or swap them against the few air groups with skilled pilots that were left. Or you could even add the components of an air training program, as modeled in WITP-AR. Another nice feature for the wishlist, for sure. Finally, the Schwalbe were attacked preferentially on the ground or during take-off and landing, correct. And what if the player managed by 1943/44 such a course of war on the eastern front that the russian air forces is no more threat, and transfers most of the figther squadrons west as cover force?
The German player did transfer most of his fighter squadrons west. In Jan 1944, Germany had around 425 single and twin engine fighters on the entire eastern front. In the west, they deployed just over 2000. Only 17% of the German fighter arm is actually in the east.This at a time when they were being swamped, not doing well as you suppose.
We could go on arguing like this forever, but my only point is that a game that offers plenty of possibilities and is modeling those accurately has surely nothing to do with fantasizing.
It is if the "possibilities" are not historically possible.
