Half-assed Maps

[Sheytan]

I do not have this version of CC but I did own a number of the previous versions. I agree that all of these products are "just games". However having said that if you read the comments in this thread you will note how some of the LOS issues related to map irregularitys give people headaches. Because in some cases everything seems to appear fine, yet you cannot figure out why anomalies are happening. This is where the irregularitys come into play and understandably why some folks are concerned about this issue.

At any rate why do you care? Clearly you dont take the discussion seriously.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: CaptRio

Man....This is really screwed up.....

Best thing Ive done was stop playinf LSA till the patch....[:@]

I guess I'm just not a stickler for detail. I really hadn't noticed all the problems with the maps. I don't get why people get so worked up about mismatched elevations and stuff like that. It's just a game. You'd think it was a major life crisis or something.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

I do not have this version of CC but I did own a number of the previous versions. I agree that all of these products are "just games". However having said that if you read the comments in this thread you will note how some of the LOS issues related to map irregularitys give people headaches. Because in some cases everything seems to appear fine, yet you cannot figure out why anomalies are happening. This is where the irregularitys come into play and understandably why some folks are concerned about this issue.

At any rate why do you care? Clearly you dont take the discussion seriously.

I'm just a curious spectator I guess. I hate to see a bunch of people in this much anguish over a game. It makes me wonder if I'm supposed to be in anguish too.

[Sheytan]

LOL![:D] Good reply. I agree though, it is just a game, some are better then others. But I think the anguish you refer to is likely disappointment on the part of folks whom expected or expect more from each release of a series.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

I do not have this version of CC but I did own a number of the previous versions. I agree that all of these products are "just games". However having said that if you read the comments in this thread you will note how some of the LOS issues related to map irregularitys give people headaches. Because in some cases everything seems to appear fine, yet you cannot figure out why anomalies are happening. This is where the irregularitys come into play and understandably why some folks are concerned about this issue.

At any rate why do you care? Clearly you dont take the discussion seriously.

I'm just a curious spectator I guess. I hate to see a bunch of people in this much anguish over a game. It makes me wonder if I'm supposed to be in anguish too.

[CSO_Talorgan]

ORIGINAL: Dundradal

I'm guessing it has more to do with the nature of maps are drawn and coded. Clearly they aren't using the most modern method here

What would the most modern method be?

[Dundradal]

That I do not know since I'm not an artist. I just know that the method currently being used is the same method that was used when CC came out. I'd imagine there is a much better way of doing it now since technology has come so far.

As for the other debate, people get so worked up because THEY LOVE THE GAMES! They want them to be perfect because they enjoy them so much. No one would be posting to this forum just to bash a game they do not own or plan to own. I'm in anguish over some of the errors found because I want to help the guys get it right so we get a good game we can enjoy for years to come.

[Mafi]

ORIGINAL: Dundradal
That I do not know since I'm not an artist. I just know that the method currently being used is the same method that was used when CC came out. I'd imagine there is a much better way of doing it now since technology has come so far.

Sir, dear Mr. Dundradal,

you are talking about "technology"? You're saying "I just know that ... is the same method that was used when CC came out ...". Sir, you believe you know this? For sure? You know something, really! Look here and search for the words "Close Combat":
http://3dnature.com/events.html

CC2 was different to CC1. Atomic got some of the maps made by 3dnature, not even the graphics, but also the data. The whole CC2-data concept (terrain / elevation) and it's graphical representation was not an invention by Atomic. And you still believe that you know something about technology? In this case you are familiar with the WCS tools? Good to have you here to tell us how to modernize the technology...

Would be better to have "xe5" extending the thread than someone else... this "xe5" knows more about CC2-CC5 than anyone else posting here. And this is for sure. (and I hope you know who "xe5" really is, otherwise I can tell you ...)

Mafi

[Dundradal]

ORIGINAL: Mafi
Sir, dear Mr. Dundradal,

you are talking about "technology"? You're saying "I just know that ... is the same method that was used when CC came out ...". Sir, you believe you know this? For sure? You know something, really! Look here and search for the words "Close Combat":
http://3dnature.com/events.html

CC2 was different to CC1. Atomic got some of the maps made by 3dnature, not even the graphics, but also the data. The whole CC2-data concept (terrain / elevation) and it's graphical representation was not an invention by Atomic. And you still believe that you know something about technology? In this case you are familiar with the WCS tools? Good to have you here to tell us how to modernize the technology...

Would be better to have "xe5" extending the thread than someone else... this "xe5" knows more about CC2-CC5 than anyone else posting here. And this is for sure. (and I hope you know who "xe5" really is, otherwise I can tell you ...)

Mafi

Now what's with the "mocking" sarcasm here? I just stated I believed there was a better way of doing it. In so doing I seemed to have sparked two "angry" responses and that doesn't really make much sense.

Mafi, I don't know why you want to attack me and then tell me that xe5 knows more than anyone about CC. If you read the thread you will not at several points I commend him for his actions. So I'm not sure what's with the hostility. No need to be defensive. Makes you look silly.

I just proposed there might be a better way. The process now must be fairly labor intensive and take a fairly long time. Just watching at what xe5 and Oddball are showing makes it look like each map takes hundreds of man hours to produce.

So cut the mocking crap. I noticed you didn't offer anything in the way of positive feedback just defensive hostility. I didn't crap on your mom's front porch. I just brought up a point for discussion.

[Mafi]

ORIGINAL: Dundradal
I just stated I believed there was a better way of doing it.

Sir,
not at all, you wrote "I know...", not "I believe...".

Mafi, I don't know why you want to attack me

You feel yourself attacked? Maybe you are already encircled, now it is time to give up, soldier!

Makes you look silly.

As always. If you have not enough arguments, then make a personal counterattack. Rhetorik lesson part one. Not my field. Not the place. Go back to year 1998... we have had all this already.

I noticed you didn't offer anything in the way of positive feedback

I know my personal skills and limits, so I'm listening to my old teacher "xe5". Learning never ends!

I just brought up a point for discussion.

And it was the wrong point, as you might accept now. No need for hostility from my side. Just want to show you that CC-making is in process since 1997...

Cheers
Mafi

[Dundradal]

ORIGINAL: Mafi

And it was the wrong point, as you might accept now. No need for hostility from my side. Just want to show you that CC-making is in process since 1997...

Cheers
Mafi

The rest of your post doesn't require a reply. Very cute though.

I don't understand how it's the wrong point, because you posted two condescending posts towards me? How did you show me that "CC-making is in process since 1997...?"

I just offered there's got to be a better way to paint and code maps. What's wrong with offering that? It's an inquiry. It's not even a criticism.

So, is there a better method? Would it make sense to change the format of CC maps and how they are produced for a new game after LSA?

[Mafi]

ORIGINAL: Dundradal
So, is there a better method? Would it make sense to change the format of CC maps and how they are produced for a new game after LSA?

Hi Dundradal,
- is there a better method? Currently no idea what method you would prefer. All map makers I know use Photoshop and PaintShopPro. Tehcnologies in PS or PSP did not vary much during the last 6 years.

- would it make sense to change the format of CC maps? No. Changing the maps' format will result in a new engine. And this will be no CC. "Blitzkrieg2" or "DesertRats vs. AfrikaKorps" (2004) already exists or are vanishing away without leaving an active commmunity.

- how they are produced for a new game? Okay, make a map of your own and then make a second map of your own using a different way. Then you can report which "how to" would be best in your case.

I think it will not lead to a definitive result on all these three points, ... everything is possible, nothing can be told about the future, but future will not help us right now at the moment.

Cheers
Mafi

[Reboot]

Dundradal

You might want to do a little research before you start attacking or belittling Mafi. He stands alone in terms of his incredible contribution to CC over the years - I challenge anyone to list any individual who has made a greater contribution to the game - Mafi's selflessness is very likely the best example of a CC "community" member and one we should all aspire to emulating

That Mafi would express any frustration at all - actually the first time I have ever see that - is an indication that there is something exasperating about all the vitriolic attacks on the "Developers" and therefore anyone associated with any or all the work that went into LSA

[xe5]

@Dundradal - Mafi's 5CC map tool is the current technology being used to make CC maps (terrain/elevation code, roofs, LOS, OVM/MMM) after the main map painting is complete. Im not familiar with the tools used to make the original CC2 maps, but I have used the map tools Atomic made the CC3/4/5 maps with. 5CC is not only far superior, and backwards compatible with multiple CC versions, but Mafi keeps improving it. If there is a better, less labor intensive method, Mafi is the 'laborer of love' that can create it.

@Oddball - Driel North has the same .5 meter raised roads issue as Grafwegen. When I suggest elevating raised roadbeds to 2-2.5 meters, that's relative to adjacent terrain. If you think of raised roads as rice paddy dikes, the 'dikes' should block LOS between the rice paddies they separate.

@Mafi - any thoughts on the possible 5CC grayscale rounding issue (4 meter elevation increments) Oddball mentions in post #18 of this thread?

[Dundradal]

ORIGINAL: Reboot

Dundradal

You might want to do a little research before you start attacking or belittling Mafi. He stands alone in terms of his incredible contribution to CC over the years - I challenge anyone to list any individual who has made a greater contribution to the game - Mafi's selflessness is very likely the best example of a CC "community" member and one we should all aspire to emulating

That Mafi would express any frustration at all - actually the first time I have ever see that - is an indication that there is something exasperating about all the vitriolic attacks on the "Developers" and therefore anyone associated with any or all the work that went into LSA

Attacking or belittling? Did you read my post? I asked a question and got a condescending reply. There was no attack I asked him why he responded in that way. It wasn't an attack on the way things are done. I simply asked if there was a better way.

Have you read any of my other posts? Maybe you should also do a little research before attempting to lecture me. I've made no attacks. I've posted constructive criticism and tried to be a voice of reason in many threads.

ORIGINAL: xe5

@Dundradal - Mafi's 5CC map tool is the current technology being used to make CC maps (terrain/elevation code, roofs, LOS, OVM/MMM) after the main map painting is complete. Im not familiar with the tools used to make the original CC2 maps, but I have used the map tools Atomic made the CC3/4/5 maps with. 5CC is not only far superior, and backwards compatible with multiple CC versions, but Mafi keeps improving it. If there is a better, less labor intensive method, Mafi is the 'laborer of love' that can create it.

Ok well good to know. Again, I'm not sure if everyone understood what I meant. I've posted multiple times how much I love the maps in CC. I just asked if there was a better way to code them is all. I didn't say burn the bastard who invented the current way. So thank you Mafi for your map creating tools. Again, I just asked a question.

[Mafi]

ORIGINAL: xe5
@Mafi - any thoughts on the possible 5CC grayscale rounding issue (4 meter elevation increments) Oddball mentions in post #18 of this thread?

Hi xe5, hi Reboot,

thanks for the support. And in deed, when looking at the new threads at Ryan's HQ I feel the old times coming back. There was a statement by K.Z. in his "about me" as a novel author (already deleted by him) concerning the times as Atomic-CiC: "... dealing with cats, or even wrangling cats". Now I know what it means.

The greyscale rounding issue:
Basics:
- we have 256 grey values when it comes to the RGB-model.
- in RGB, on a monitor, you will see grey if Red=Green=Blue.
- if you want to have minor differences between two values (for example "1" and "2"), the human eye will hardly see it.
- human eye will have more problems to identify grey differences for "very dark / nearly black" and "nearly white".
- another problem is the internal handling what you will see. CC graphics are 16bit, monitor output is 24bit.
- map terrain data is based on 10x10 pixel squares. So we have 100 pixels for each data tile.

5CC will make pure mathematics:
- Taking the pixel values, calculating the average value of Red+Green+Blue for every pixel to get a single grey value between 0..255,
- then calculating the average grey value of all 100 pixels of one data tile, and the result will be stored in the data tiles elevation.
- then calculating the next data tile and so on...

The problem is:
- Cpl_Filth invented the method using a greyscale image (by decoloring the BGM) to make elevation editing easier, because in those days we had no better alternatives in rapid elevation modding. He also made a good tutorial, which I can not find on my HD anymore. His tool "CCmold" is still online and requires JavaVM and the graphics to be shrinked down to 10% (one pixel representing one data tile).
http://www.student.oulu.fi/%7Epsaastam/

A possible solution:
- more contrast (that means larger grey steps, example: "1" and "6",
- importing the image to generate the elevation,
- then using 5CC's "Data actions" / "Elevation" to multiply all elevation by "0.2" to eliminate the contrast effect,
- then elevating the entire map using the "Data actions" / "Elevation" adding a value.

While writing this, I have an idea how to improve visiblity for the human eye and to avoid rounding effects:
- paint your greyscale over the BGM,
- shrink the size to 10% as requested by Cpl_Filth's tool,
- then expand the size by 1000% and you will have squares and no roundings. I use for this GraphicConverter, not PS.

So far on this...

Cheers
Mafi

[Dundradal]

And in case I wasn't clear....

Mafi thanks for your hard work on the map-making process. I was merely posting the question if there was a better way. It just seems like the current one is very time consuming is all. I wasn't putting down your hard work (I wasn't even aware of it at the time my apologies), so keep up the good work!

[Reboot]

And speaking of selflessness, astonishing contributions to the CC community, and "maps", Southern_land has created how many maps for CC?......400+?

And what exactly has he gotten out of it? Respect? Admiration? Appreciation? The dude is a true artist and CC enthusiast (did I mention hilarious and devilishly handsome?) who has spent thousands of hours creating an almost endless virtual landscape for us CC fans. His financial reward? I'm pretty sure he got a couple of free boxed games, so lets do the math on that...what? $.001/hr?
And exactly how many folks who have posted in this thread have ever created a CC map?

I wonder how SL feels when he peeks in here and sees a thread called "half-assed maps?".....take a guess

[Mafi]

ORIGINAL: Dundradal
(I wasn't even aware of it at the time my apologies)

Accepted! As Reboot told, look at the S3T credits table in game to see who is who. Me is only a minor contributor to the course. And yes: the map making process is, was and will be a time consuming process, independently what game you will create. The more details, the more work. And we are talking here of 1km x 1km maps.

[mooxe]

This has been an enjoyable thread. It just goes to show you theres too little time between these rereleases being stamped out, not enough people doing the programming and certainly not enough effort on beta testing.

[LitFuel]

oh good lord...ok ok we get it...CC GODS are here CC GODS are here..lol...you make it sound like Dundradal made the title of the thread as well when in fact it was one of your own. The fact is the guy paid 40 to 60 or more bucks to play the game...he can say any freaking thing he wants at this point and looking at the posts they werent that bad for the hurricane of oh your not worthy to talk posts he got. Not everyone has a CC stick up their butt and if anything some of you should apologize back. Either do the work on the game because you love it or don't but don't expect people who paid money for a game to be treated like they are second class....there are nicer ways to explain things and not every one needs to learn who the GODS are to express themselves.

[Dundradal]

ORIGINAL: Reboot

And speaking of selflessness, astonishing contributions to the CC community, and "maps", Southern_land has created how many maps for CC?......400+?

I wonder how SL feels when he peeks in here and sees a thread called "half-assed maps?".....take a guess

Probably fine once he reads it and sees what its about. It has nothing to do with the drawing of the maps. It has to do with coding.

LitFuel, well said and thanks. I apologized when to be honest I really didn't need to. I merely posted a question and got jumped on. I'm curious why no one jumped on xe5? After all he started this thread about the maps. I have been merely commenting along the way.