AGS Turn 1 Moves

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Q-Ball
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-Ball, one problem I'm seeing with the pocket: you are leaving a number of your HQs exposed to displacement on the Soviet turn.

This was a TEST, I hadn't moved them. That's easy enough to fix. I just didn't bother since this was not for the long-haul.
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Klydon
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Klydon »

Looks good, although I think you transfer 10th motor division (one next to Das Reich) into XXXXVI panzer and bring the stack down. This allows the use of hasty attacks and win against the tank divisions further south.

What happen with the border guard down on the Rumanian border? That sucker usually retreats, but has enough movement/moral to cause issues in breaking the pocket.

Could be more effective to show who owns what territory after your move, but I think most everyone gets the idea.

I also think you get the rest of 17th army started on the right, pushing those units out of their fortifications and moving up a bit. They will make the pocket smaller, thus requiring fewer MPs to clean out units next turn along with being closer to moving to the main front to the east. Even if you lose a Russian or two due to where they route, I still think it is worth it. Now, if you plan on that, but didn't do it because you were working on the breakthrough, then that is fine (Sort of like not moving HQs).

One last point is the rail repair guy. Where are you working on your rail head at? If you go east, the Soviets can zoc a rail hex (if they haven't already) which will slow down progress. If you wait for Lvov to be cleaned out, it is a bit of a risk that you can clean everything out there and it will also delay the rail head. I think you try to park a unit next to the tank division south east of the rough and that should be good.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Magnum88 »

As I said the AI does not move the Mech Corps around Rovno and I am sure a human player would move them out of harms way. However, even against a human the Mech Corps next to the border cannot escape. Not pocketed on Turn 1 but only 2-hex wide mouth that they cannot clear (ZOC-ZOC move eats up their MPs) and Turn 2 they get pocketed. Perhaps the units further west could set up a defense by to allow them a small chance to escape on Turn 2 but than they set themselves up to be pocketed.
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Mynok
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


Here's an example of doing the railroad cut operation instead of the full encirclement. I used only AGS units.

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Mynok
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »

This is post-Soviet move 1 (which I did myself). I did everything possible to extract units and bust the panzers. One did get isolated but I moved it badly as the German. It should have pinned the units near the Rovno mountains.

In the German turn following, I had no trouble isolating everything as well as making excellent progress to the southeast towards Proskurov and to Rovno. Many, many Soviets were isolated in the north and south. (Which makes me suspect my Soviet moves were none too wise and possibly a bit aggressive, but that wouldn't be surprising as I've never played them.)

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Q-Ball »

That is very interesting, because it uses only the AGS guys. I didn't think it would work because of that RR Line by the Romanian border, but that RR line is closed. This prevents anyone from RR-ing out.

Going south like that does prevent any westward movement. And no reason you couldn't have closed a pocket around KOVEL, and isolated that Mechanized Corps.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Flaviusx »

Mynok, I think this opening is problematic and opens the Germans up to some unpleasantness in turn 2.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


Well, I actually played turn 2, and isolated the entire bunch west of the Tarnopol line, plus some of the units up north. I'll post some shots later. Of course, it is quite possible a good Soviet player could have done far more damage than I did.

My key point was that you do not have to completely isolate the Lvov area to preclude massive Soviet rail evacuation. You simply have to get to 2 hexes SE of Tarnopol.

I can do this better and more solidly. I will attempt it and post some shots this evening.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


Ok, here's how it looked after the German turn 1. A nice, wide area of control, everything pinned possible, especially the nasty armor, and nothing in danger of isolation.

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Mynok
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


Here's after the Soviet turn 1.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »

And after the German turn 2. Didn't take Rovno, but it will fall next turn. Wasn't willing to risk a hasty attack by armor on infantry in a city. Note that the pocket is wide and dangerous units are pinned. Soviets ain't getting out of this one, but I'm about to try.

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Flaviusx
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Flaviusx »

That looks pretty darn good.

Although I think the Sovs can do a few things on turn 1 to make life more complicated. But I'd have to get a copy of the saved turn to see if the MPs are there.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


Note that I did normal recon and some airfield attacks in all of this. Recon absolutely helps attacks in the rear. I will move armor or motorized up next to units they want to attack, then run recon to get their detection level to 10 or close. Makes a difference folks.

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Flaviusx
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Flaviusx »

Mynok, any chance you can post a copy of the save for your beginning of Soviet turn 1, I want to take a crack at this.

I really like this topic, btw, we should have more of these, with operational problems and solutions, this is great stuff.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


And here it is. I broke it. Major boo-boo by the Germans and much learned.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »

Here is what I did wrong. The German panzer unit should have ended one hex southwest of where it was. That would have kept the pocket from being broken. The two mountain units moved one hex and converted the two hexes northwest and northeast of them respectively. If the panzer unit had been in the right spot, those hexes would not have converted as they would have been in the panzer unit's ZOC. Lesson learned. Two hexes between pocketing units in big pockets...and wide control areas.

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Mynok
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »


It's also interesting that as soon as those mountain units moved and broke the pocket, all the Soviets became instantly unisolated and got much movement points back.

This is actually quite fascinating playing against oneself. Kinda like I used to do with my boardgames since there were no FTF opponents where I grew up.
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by 2ndACR »

Mynok, you said all you have to do is go 2 hexes SE of Tarnopol? What about the rail that runs along the Romanian border?

If you do not cut that, they are still in supply and not isolated. I know you cut it on turn 2, but turn 1 the Ruskies could rail alot of units out.
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Mynok
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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by Mynok »

They can't use that rail. I tried it. I cut the Tarnopol rail on turn 1. That does the trick.

Flavius, I'll be happy to post any save you want or email it to you. PM me your address.

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RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves

Post by 2ndACR »

Really, I wonder why? ZOC?
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