RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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janh
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Schmart
Unfourtunately, WitE is NOT a simulation. Simulation implies using data that is as accurate as possible. Considering that the Russian OOB and force structure is widely customizable by the human player, I'd suggest the term 'simulation' be used sparingly. It's a game based on history, but not a simulation.

No, it ain't. It is a compromise, a game with a simulation touch. Which is fine, though some of us, perhaps all too likely also those who endulge in endless hours of micromanagement in WitP, would probably prefer more simulation than game.

The definition of simulation doesn't mean squeezing in a tight corset as you imply. In fact, the most powerful simulation of that kind would set you up at that exact moment in time, with all the previous courses, data, resources etc. exactly historical, or in some way reasonably changed within the (parameter) space of possibilities. Then, from there on, everything would only be limited by "true" mechanics, which would for example be basic physical laws etc. Or the "true" impact of things on the morale of the population, which in turn would influence a myriad of other factors, from desertions of the boys at the front to the production efficiency or will to endure nightly bombings at home. However, this for example is very hard to assess in a quantitative fashion, and to then implement in a mathematical framework that would represent the exact same thing in a tractable, flexible way in a simulation. Since you can't do that, you will have to make some approximations and reduce stuff.
Things like organizing forces surely are within what people could easily have done at that time. Yet they could have build a star destroyer, beamed supply, or developed a 1980 tank in no time -- unless given the time and fulfilling side conditions -- kind of a "civilization simulation".
If you cut things like OoB organization, you would rather call that a simulation with limitations, or constraints. That would be a method to elucidate the impact of each parameter systematically and decoupled on certain aspects of the outcome.

That, however, doesn't mean I agree with the fact that one side has the flexibility, and the other not. In fact, if the underdog had this added benefit, like IJN in WiTP has benefits the superior side doesn't get, I would understand this design decision. On the other hand, Axis doesn't really have the resources to do much even if it could create larger formations. I am rather pleased that the Soviets rebuild a myriad of divisions (for free), since the more one creates, the weaker each one will be and the longer each one acts as a replacement sink... If you would force them to select which ones to rebuild, they might be going to less but stronger OoBs?
Much more impact for the German side than the ability to create units would have an option that would allow adjusting ToE slots, i.e. which tanks go to which units first...
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This kind of selectivity is most curious.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Joel Billings »

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Regarding getting to 1943(+) in WiTE -- it's interesting and can be fun and all. But what does it really mean? And what does this very lengthy, time consuming journey really tell us about the game? The game goes through so many changes so quickly as a result of the rapid fire beta patches, what are we really learning about game flow as a whole?

There are too many aspects of the game which are not held constant as a result of the rapidity of patching. Anyone that's gotten to 1943(+) can attest to this. It appears that we will be seeing the same in the future.

Exepct the rapid fire patching to slow considerably in the next few months. We expect 1.05 to be made official within the next few weeks, with only a few changes since the 1.05.42 version. Recent AARs seem to indicate that 1942 may be quite scary for Soviet players, although we need to see more games that get through 42 and into 43 to know for sure. Although we'll continue to fix bugs that come up, the major balance changes should be behind us now, with hopefully only minor tweaks to come based on the results we see in the ongoing games. Bigger changes to the game system will have to wait for WitW, and eventually a WitE 2.0 that will flow from WitW.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Michael T »

Player "fear" should be much more evenly distributed between both the Axis and Soviets sides of the game.

Right now that feeling (fear) exists for me when playing both sides, but its not even. There is an order of magnitude more 'pressure' when playing German. The game can go for 200+ turns but you have only 17 to win or set your self up for a win. A very small window of opportunity. Not even that if you play with random weather.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The Russian colossus...has been underestimated by us...whenever a dozen divisions are destroyed the Russians replace them with another dozen. August 1941, from "The World at War" - Page 129 - by Mark Arnold-Forster - World War, 1939-1945 - 1981----Franz Hadler quote.



http://warandgame.com/2007/08/20/russo- ... lans-1941/

"On the first day of the war, 22 million Soviet citizens were called up. By mid-August, a shaken Halder was writing that the German Army, which had expected to face fewer than 200 Soviet divisions, had already identified 360 such divisions on the fighting front. Within a year, and despite having suffered the worst mili­tary disasters in history, the Red Army had attained a marginal superiority over the enemy in manpower and weapons and had stabilized the front."

Irrespective of history, we need to discuss gameplay consequence.

I am not trying to restrict the Soviet Army to a certain number of counters. I'm trying to show people the number of abstracted factors in game that double-punish the German and/or translate German success into Soviet advantage.

To speak of the 'free divisions' issue in another way:
When Germany destroys divisions, the game design decision of free units at Stavka command results in an improved chain of command for the Soviet Union for free administratively. Germany did the right thing, and they make the Soviet Union stronger...

Compare that to history if you like (I don't). And compare the game design decisions for C2 and tell me how on earth Germany should have so much harder a time staying organized, when it launched a surprise freakin attack, than the Soviet command structure as its divisions disintegrate in the field?

There are two schools of thought about the actual history of the war here in the community:
People who think they know nothing could be changed in Germany's favor
People who think it's interesting to see if Germany can change things here or there to its advantage.

The game was designed by, and playtesting appears dominated by, people of the former camp. At some point, you look at the community and you have to ask yourself: We don't want the same game, so maybe it's time for me to move along. I'm not there yet (not that any of you should feel concerned if I were), but the Soviet-apologists for C2 and Admin are, in my learned opinion, talking out their butts and are full of the bias of their presupposed outlook of the history.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Encircled »

Nope, don't get you

I've commented on your AAR, and I will be even more blunt here.

You've trashed your opponent in '41, he's on his knees, and he's got to rebuild the Soviet army in '42, when the morale (and fighting capabilities) will be at their lowest....and you are still moaning that its biased to the Russians.

I don't play this game anywhere near as much as some of you do, but I don't see this disparity in 1.05 as you do.

To be honest, I'm not sure more than a couple of Panzer pushers do either.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Q-Ball »

There is alot of passion here.

I frankly don't see gross balance problems yet either way. It's not perfect, but it's not amazingly off either. I do think one side in particular has a slight advantage, but it's hard to know for sure until we get into 1944.

I think players who play only or mostly one side are the most vocal about "fixing" play for that side. I recommend seriously trying both to understand how the other side lives, before making big gameplay suggestions.

I think we also have to distinguish game balance vs. historical balance. This was always a factor in WITP-AE discussions. Everyone knows the real Japanese were 100% doomed to lose the war, the minute they started it. That doesn't mean the Japanese PLAYER is doomed to lose, even though they will be crushed eventually. And in that one, where the game is now, the Japanese side is clearly more proficient than historical.........and everyone seems to like it that way, because it does make for a better game.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Nope, don't get you

I've commented on your AAR, and I will be even more blunt here.

You've trashed your opponent in '41, he's on his knees, and he's got to rebuild the Soviet army in '42, when the morale (and fighting capabilities) will be at their lowest....and you are still moaning that its biased to the Russians.

I don't play this game anywhere near as much as some of you do, but I don't see this disparity in 1.05 as you do.

To be honest, I'm not sure more than a couple of Panzer pushers do either.


He is very far from on his knees (M60) we talk by email (PBEM game)and hes doing fine. Hes got a 6+ man army which is the norm for blizzard. We both have gotten about what we expected and the games up in the air, which is just what 1.05 was built to do.

I personally don't want a I win button, I like to see the war end during 45.

I beleive the current setup is about right BUT we never know until some of us can get to 44/45.

The bitch I have is the dev's are alrdy nerfing the german side before the current patch has been completely tested, which is screwing the players willing to help out and figure the game balance out.

I think me and Flaviusx feel same way on one issue. Russians will be slightly over powered late war.

I disagree that germans are over powered in the first 2 yrs. All things being equal the German player cant take Moscow. Its been showing in the current AAR's that Moscow can be held, but its a bitch. Thats is just what it was like Moscow almost fell and might have if Hitler had not made AGC go save AGS ass.
Leningrad falls which it should have.
South is very slightly better then historical. Rail nerf has fixed that.

The game should end in 45 not 43 or 44 as was case with pre 1.05.

More time is needed and less screwing around with rules until games get to 45.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

 So thats none then

All I needed to know

You know nothing as always.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

We only have one sample of the pacific war and only one sample of the war in the west. Yet in neither case does much controversy arise. Only in the east is this matter of a single historical sample become an issue and the desire for counterfactuals become enormous. This kind of selectivity is most curious.

Your the shining example of your own selectivity and its not overly curious.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: marty_01

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

History schmistory, I'm talking gameplay and game design.

A sizable majority of game design decisions benefitted the soviet side far more the axis side, and more significantly to my arguments, far more than history did. These game design decisions have nothing to do with historical representation or abstraction (think: basically every division coming back for free in 1941).

Folks are right, about supply being an too easy for both sides.

People overlook how much pressure a German player is under for the first 17 turns.

How many GC'41s were abandoned because the German player realizes on Turn 13 "I screwed up on Turn 8 when I moved that panzer group there, and I'll never make up for it before mud? **Resign**

These resignations aren't because the Soviet did something novel or excellent, but rather because the German side must always walk a razor's edge of strategic tradeoffs, while simultaneously, game mechanics babysit the Soviet in 1941 such that no failure to manage the army, no abdication of concentration, will ever make too big a difference.

I've hated wasting my opponent's time with my 4 or 5 resignations, but frankly there are two different games here: an easy one, and a very hard one. One is a relaxed, "It's never too big a deal" game in which you can always recover, and the other is a "Damn! now I'll never unbalance the other guy enough to make a difference."

Until the Soviets have to make some strategic decisions that have meaningful tradeoffs, I'm going to vociferously object to how simple Soviet gameplay is. I'm particularly interested in playing Soviet again, but I can't see it even being fair right now for a German player with everything stacked against them. I'm debating trying to find a German player who will accept handicap help just to prove how easy it is for the Soviet to neuter the German in 1941.

Agreed -- you hit the nail on the head for many of my own feelings about WiTE and how it "feels" while playing the game.

Having played the Russians in a number of PBEMs, I'll say that it's not a complete romp in the park. But the "fear" moments playing as the Russians have for me always been far more limited than when playing as the Axis. Against a good German player it's challenging as the Russians between about turn 6 to about turn 15 or 16. It's far less scary since the 19-MP/20-MP limit on HQ Build-UP occurred. Although I have yet to play anyone who's glommed onto the HQ-Build-Up chain\mule bandwagon yet. I think a lot of folks including myself -- hope that the chain\mule thingy somehow gets sorted out and schwaked by 2by3 sooner rather than later. Any solution to HQ-Build and chaining or muling or mulling – or whatever we are calling it this week -- has to be tempered so as not to completely eliminate Axis maneuver capability.

For anyone who cares, I've actually gotten to 1943 playing as both the Russians and Germans. Although it's rare as many players are conceding pretty early. Against a mediocre German player, the game is a romp in the park from pretty much turn 2 or 3 onward. Conversely when facing a mediocre Russian player even a good Axis player is still -- as you say -- walking the razors edge from turn 1 onward.

Perhaps using the word player "fear" is off the beaten path in describing perception of how a game is proceeding, but it's what I'm going to run with. I don't buy into the relative disparity in player "fear" that the current game portrays. It may be on the mark for folks playing the Axis. But I think correlation to the historical event and "fear" is poor when I'm playing the Soviet side. I think -- and this is certainly arguable for some -- but for me I believe that the historical event was a far tighter match than what is currently being portrayed in WiTE and the current "fashionable" interpretation of the War in Russia. Player "fear" should be much more evenly distributed between both the Axis and Soviets sides of the game. [:D]

You good Sir have hit the nail right on the head.

Very nice post.

The down side is that you will be put on ignore and called a Nazis fanboy by the Red fanboys.

The normal hate coming from that side as has been the case now for a while.

Also like to thank all the guys sending me e-mails supporting the case for a balanced game.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Regarding getting to 1943(+) in WiTE -- it's interesting and can be fun and all. But what does it really mean? And what does this very lengthy, time consuming journey really tell us about the game? The game goes through so many changes so quickly as a result of the rapid fire beta patches, what are we really learning about game flow as a whole?

There are too many aspects of the game which are not held constant as a result of the rapidity of patching. Anyone that's gotten to 1943(+) can attest to this. It appears that we will be seeing the same in the future.

Exepct the rapid fire patching to slow considerably in the next few months. We expect 1.05 to be made official within the next few weeks, with only a few changes since the 1.05.42 version. Recent AARs seem to indicate that 1942 may be quite scary for Soviet players, although we need to see more games that get through 42 and into 43 to know for sure. Although we'll continue to fix bugs that come up, the major balance changes should be behind us now, with hopefully only minor tweaks to come based on the results we see in the ongoing games. Bigger changes to the game system will have to wait for WitW, and eventually a WitE 2.0 that will flow from WitW.

Thanks for info, I beleive the rail nerf/rebalancing will help out the Russian side allot in future games so it will not be to "scary" for the Russian side.

Still best Eastern front game out there by allot and I look forward to WiTW.

Grats on your WiTE hit and hope WiTW will be even better then wite.

1.05 was a home run. I will still argue for the German side, no big surpise there :)

Also thanks for the help on some past issue I had.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Michael T »

Also like to thank all the guys sending me e-mails supporting the case for a balanced game.

A balanced game we might get/have. Better yet would be a balanced and unbiased perspective from the one eyed extremists.....

Most of them seem to wear red goggles [:)]
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by PeeDeeAitch »

Has anyone here tried to play without HQ buildup?
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Farfarer61 »

A lot of us are playing and having a blast - can we still still say blast or is that too...whatever? :)
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Mike29 »

Pelton

Leningrad falls which it should have.

Why you are so assured? Second time I see you define so the fate of the city. Sturm of Leningrad was stopped only 04 September because of heavy losses and necessity to advance on Moscow. Without operating of statistics, do you have any imagination about that battlefield? Heavy woods, swamps and well-defended heights with heavy naval guns without speaking of Baltic fleet artillery, rivers and fortresses inside the city. Much easier to hold than Stalingrad with naked steppe before.

Don't confuse causes and effects. They stopped before they couldn't. Not they couldn't because they stopped.

In my own opinion decision to continue attacks on Leningrad would kill AGN.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by KenchiSulla »

Talk about polarization.. you guys do realise that the way some of you argue has nothing to do with the game anymore, it is just you vs them...
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by Encircled »

I wasn't talking about your game, Pelton, I was talking about Helidourous v Cannonfodder

I'd like to see you play to the end of the game, and see if you win, because I suspect that you'd be surprised that it gets close.

Of course it wouldn't be much fun as a German player if you spend all your time trashing Soviets between 41-42, but surely thats all part of the fun of playing wargames.

I took over a game as the Germans where I have zero chance of winning, but its still good fun.

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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Also like to thank all the guys sending me e-mails supporting the case for a balanced game.

A balanced game we might get/have. Better yet would be a balanced and unbiased perspective from the one eyed extremists.....

It's interesting how mostly everybody on this thread has avoided discussing how logistics work in the game and how do they think they should be changed to be a more reasonable portrayal of war at the operational level (or if they do think they're OK or not).

You in particular seem to have a quite ambiguous position on this: you know it's wrong, but since you can get from it what you want, then it's OK.

If people want balance, real balance, then it's very simple.

1. Adjust initial Soviet unit Morale and Experience levels to German levels.
2. Scale Soviet production and manpower levels to German levels.
3. Set the start date to July 1st 1941, leaving deployments as they are.
4. Set Russian TOE, vehicle and supply levels to German levels.
5. Edit all leader stats, so they're all the same.
6. Remove units from Soviet OOB so the Axis and the Soviet Union have an 1:1 relationship in men, tanks and artillery.

Then we would have a "balanced" game. People getting so vocal about this issue, certainly could devote time in the editor to modify the GC to fit into that scenario. Though it wouldn't be the War in the East. It would be, let's say, "Hearts of Iron: The Operational Game". Which would probably become the Game of the Year, or some other meaningless marketing title.

I'm really sick of the random fanboy sh*t throwing which aborts any kind of meaningful discussion and all the sickening revisionism that some posts on this thread smack of. I find laughable that so many people consider the German Army to be the best Army in the world, vastly superior to its opponents, without wondering why, since they were so good, why they did lose.

Oh, and saying "I resigned the game because I realized in turn 15 than in turn 8 I could have done a better thing" is unfair to an opponent, and a, from my point of view, a gross lack of gaming etiquette.

Over & Out.
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RE: RELOADS and HQ Build Up

Post by janh »

^^
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