The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please)

[randallw]

If you want to retreat, don't call it retreating. You are simply relocating to better positions.

[Tarhunnas]

This is a map after Soviet moves turn 4. Forgot to take a screenshot at the start of the turn (the disadvantage of server games). The enemy is continuing his Pacman-tactics of gobbling up pockets, though two pockets were broken by counterattacks this turn, at Smolensk and one in at Vinnitsa.

[Tarhunnas]

Here is a closeup of the counterattack at Smolensk. I was a bit lucky there, exactly 2:1 odds...

[Walloc]

Actually its 1:1 odds at 65:70. Getting the 2:1 via rules [:)]

What ever works..

Rasmus

[Klydon]

I imagine the gas tank needle on a lot of those panzers is starting to bounce on empty. You have done a great job from the standpoint of squeezing his supply lines as much as possible.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I imagine the gas tank needle on a lot of those panzers is starting to bounce on empty. You have done a great job from the standpoint of squeezing his supply lines as much as possible.

Yeah, but I am afraid it is costing me too much. And it is only turn 4!

[Farfarer61]

I highly recommend "smart" counter-attacks supported by bombing waves, like you are doing. I would interpret no runaway to mean if you establish a line, you try to hold it until doom threatens. So what if it is 15 hexes east behind terrain - you mean 30 MP's for elite Axis mobile forces i.e. readily contactable if he wishes disrupt your plans? Sounds fair to me.

[notenome]

Whilst his progress in the middle and south has been impressive, in the north he's been rather anemic, which may pay dividends latter on. I'd expect his panzers to dash to cut off the Dnepr in the south and I'd advise you to start fortifying Moscow as best you can now, since that seems like the primary goal.

[Balou]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Yeah, but I am afraid it is costing me too much. And it is only turn 4!

You mind posting a losses and OOB screen ?

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: notenome

Whilst his progress in the middle and south has been impressive, in the north he's been rather anemic, which may pay dividends latter on. I'd expect his panzers to dash to cut off the Dnepr in the south and I'd advise you to start fortifying Moscow as best you can now, since that seems like the primary goal.

Yes, looks like Leningrad is being side showed here.A strategy that I think more Axis players should use.There's not enough up there to warrant a panzer army fighting axle deep through the swamps.Once they get there all the industry is gone anyway.
I'd do it slightly differently to MT,(assuming this is his plan), by sending 4th panzer group to take Pskov as usual, so drawing off Soviet reinforcements from the center and giving 18th and 16th armies a head start.Then swap 4th pz group to the center, probably around turn four.They can either speed up the capture of Moscow or head South East to cooperate with AGS, probably the latter.

[notenome]

True but capturing Leningrad releases the Fins, which shortens the Axis front, this imho, is the main advantage of taking the city.

[Flaviusx]

Leaving Leningrad alone simplifies the Soviet defensive problem and allows him to neglect 1/3 of the front. It can suck in an incredible amount of forces. Here it is likely going to be a source of forces for the rest of the front. I think ignoring it is a mistake. Every time I have played somebody who ignored it, it has blown up in their face. So I am definitely scratching my head a bit here as to what Micheal is doing. The only reason his strategy is at all viable is because Tarhunnas is committed to a forward defense. I frankly would be screening AGC and AGS and be pulling back into the supply dead zone at this point. I would be reinforcing neither area, too, just leave the remnants of West Front and SW Front to delay and harass. The swarm of cadres that will be shortly arriving would start building new defensive lines further east.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: notenome

True but capturing Leningrad releases the Fins, which shortens the Axis front, this imho, is the main advantage of taking the city.

It certainly is the main advantage.
I just feel that mobile units should be used in open terrain as much as possible.
A couple of options
One would be to leave a couple of motorized divisions up there after Pskov is taken and try to take Leningrad on a shoestring.
Another is for 4th pz group to push on to the Luga by around turn 5 or 6 and then for 18th and 16th armies to push as far as they can until say turn 12 and then build a massive network of fortifications before the winter.
Another is to do what MT seems to be doing here and that's to win the war outright in 41 or 42 without ever going anywhere near Leningrad.

[Tarhunnas]

I guess that the Germans will be turning north soon with some panzers. I guess the original intention was to leave Leningrad alone to fall later, but I suspect my opponent might be reevaluating that strategy.

[vicberg]

I like his strategy so far. He's focused on encirclements right now. Lgrad is tough to encircle and a slugfest. Instead, he's got the bulk of AGN in the center gobbling up Soviet divisions at a rate of 40-50 a turn (it seems). At his current rate, you might not have anything left to defend Lgrad or anywhere else.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I like his strategy so far. He's focused on encirclements right now. Lgrad is tough to encircle and a slugfest. Instead, he's got the bulk of AGN in the center gobbling up Soviet divisions at a rate of 40-50 a turn (it seems). At his current rate, you might not have anything left to defend Lgrad or anywhere else.

Yes, you are right, and I am being outplayed here. I need to fall back and minimize the opportunities for pocketing.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 5 before Soviet moves.

A panzer group is now turning north, reaching Pskov with its advance elements.

In the South, a nasty uppercut behind Kiev. I had not expected the Germans to be able to exploit behind the Dnepr!

[Tarhunnas]

After Soviet moves.

I am trying for a more Flavian strategy (or Fabian? [;)]). Picket and MLR, though I don't have the units for my MLR to amount to much actually. I might have lost the campaign i the first four turns...

Counterattacks break a pocket south of Smolensk, and some Rumanians are sent packing in the south by repeated counterattacks, breaking another pocket, and cavalry infiltration breaks a pocket in the Baltics.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Balou

You mind posting a losses and OOB screen ?

I forgot to do that again! Sorry! That is the disadvantage with server games. It would really be nice if it were possible to go back and look at past turns in server games, not to play, but just to take screenshots for AARs.

[janh]

Looks like your situation is very serious now. I was impressed by your successes to reopen pockets and isolate the AGS Panzers a few turns back, but obviously this did little to slow his pace. Turn 5 means crossing the Djenpr in force after 4 weeks, despite forward resistance and counterattacking. And it didn't even seem to have cost him much, he will probably not need an extended refit break after that. Not good, if you ask me, but almost predictable.

I have been pondering about ways to make the pockets more resilient, making him at least spent more time and casualties to reduce them. What is the state of your air arm? Do you leave some airbases inside the "regions expected to be pocketed", with some transport-capable planes? That would at least give the units a partial supply state for a turn, though perhaps that doesn't mean a lot either with the inherent weakness of the red counters. But better then nothing.
So far I never tried that in my Soviet games because I was always protecting my air force as best as possible. Maybe time for a paradigm change, I should test it.