Looking at DCCB

The development team behind the award-winning games Decisive Campaigns: From Warsaw To Paris and Advanced Tactics is back with a new and improved game engine that focuses on the decisive year and theater of World War II! Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue simulates the German drive to Stalingrad and into the Caucasus of the summer of 1942, as well as its May preludes (2nd Kharkov offensive, Operation Trappenjagd) and also the Soviet winter counter-offensive (Operation Uranus) that ended with the encirclement of 6th Army in Stalingrad and the destruction of the axis minor armies. With many improvements including the PBEM++ system, this is a release to watch for wargamers!

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James Ward
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by James Ward »

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

Think your mixing up political and military objectives. I totally agree with your point from a purely military point of view. But Stalingrad like Moscow and Leningrad to a lesser extent had a lot of political and moral importance for the leadership and the nation.

von Clausewitz on war stressed the moral and political nature of war. There are not divisible. Often misquoted as meaning war is the extension of politics by another means. Can I recommend Eric Von Manstien by Mungo Melvin for a feel for the political interference and although this is from the German perspective Churchill but other leaders such as Churchill ignored their military advisors (Alanbrooke) and military disasters or dissipation of effort inevitably followed.

In terms of real life Stalingrad wasn't the objective at the start of Case Blue but it came to symbolize the whole thing after the German defeat there.

I'm mostly talking about it in terms of the game for automatic victory. The oil fields were the main objective of the campaign so I get Baku. Saratov opened a route to Moscow so I get that. Stalingrad led nowhere and was not a goal of the campaign so I don't get why it is included.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by stonestriker »

ORIGINAL: James Ward

In terms of real life Stalingrad wasn't the objective at the start of Case Blue but it came to symbolize the whole thing after the German defeat there.

I'm mostly talking about it in terms of the game for automatic victory. The oil fields were the main objective of the campaign so I get Baku. Saratov opened a route to Moscow so I get that. Stalingrad led nowhere and was not a goal of the campaign so I don't get why it is included.

The way I see it is that Baku is the key to the campaign, as you say. But in order to secure the oil completely, the germans need Stalingrad (closing rail and river access to Caucasus). Besides Stalingrad contained quite a lot of heavy industry important to the russian war effort, that in itself could be seen as important.

However taking Saratov should work just as well in securing Caucasus, or even better, so changing the objectives to Baku and (Stalingrad or Saratov) would seem quite logical.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Bonners »

ORIGINAL: starbuck310

Think your mixing up political and military objectives. I totally agree with your point from a purely military point of view. But Stalingrad like Moscow and Leningrad to a lesser extent had a lot of political and moral importance for the leadership and the nation.

von Clausewitz on war stressed the moral and political nature of war. There are not divisible. Often misquoted as meaning war is the extension of politics by another means. Can I recommend Eric Von Manstien by Mungo Melvin for a feel for the political interference and although this is from the German perspective Churchill but other leaders such as Churchill ignored their military advisors (Alanbrooke) and military disasters or dissipation of effort inevitably followed.

Totally agree with you about political interference, but when the goals for the campaign were originally made the taking of the flank on the Volga was supposed to have been completed first. It was only when political interference happened that the objectives got widely expanded. Totally agree with you about the Mungo Melvin book by the way, it was about time there was a more critical appraisal made of Manstein whilst still recognising he was a masterful and skilful general.

Anyway, I think everybody is kind of right as this game does mix up the political and strategic objectives for the Germans quite well. yes strategically all the Germans needed to do was to anchor the flank and disrupt the Volga traffic, but politically I dont think you can take Stalingrad out of the objectives. If you take away the barmy high command objectives doesnt it become a totally non historic setting on a historic map?
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by James Ward »

ORIGINAL: Bonners
Totally agree with you about political interference, but when the goals for the campaign were originally made the taking of the flank on the Volga was supposed to have been completed first. It was only when political interference happened that the objectives got widely expanded. Totally agree with you about the Mungo Melvin book by the way, it was about time there was a more critical appraisal made of Manstein whilst still recognising he was a masterful and skilful general.

Anyway, I think everybody is kind of right as this game does mix up the political and strategic objectives for the Germans quite well. yes strategically all the Germans needed to do was to anchor the flank and disrupt the Volga traffic, but politically I dont think you can take Stalingrad out of the objectives. If you take away the barmy high command objectives doesnt it become a totally non historic setting on a historic map?

I'm not suggesting taking Stalingrad out as an objective. It should be a very expensive one to not take/hold if ordered. This would insure that a good part of the forces are committed to it. I do question why it is part of the automatic victory conditions. The game should be decided on points most of the time not automatic victory.

Automatic victory should be really hard to achieve. I don't think it is possible for the Russian to get an AV against a human as Kiev is required and I don't see how they get there. Stalingrad is very hard to defend for the Russians due to the lack of a direct supply route from the East. Making a North and South objective as the Automatic victory conditions with Stalingrad in the middle as a big prestige point generator/drain would force the Germans to get an overwhelming victory everywhere to get an AV.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Bonners »

I am totally rubbish, meant to get a screenshot showing supply to the Stalingrad forces in my AAR. Anyway, the point is that I checked the supply and at the moment they are all getting plenty of supply coming from across the river. Are there special rules built into the game governing the supply for Stalingrad? Will be interesting to see what happens when/if the German airforce are there in force to interdict the supply.

As for automatic victory, I'm not sure either way as I dont think I've got the experience to fully judge either way. Points I would consider though would be whether when the automatic victory conditions are achieved whether there is always that much point in carrying on the game? At least it makes both opponents go for historic objectives. It is already an expensive objective, but it is possible for the Germans to avoid and still get a major victory anyway. In my game Isokron already has about 430 vps without Stalingrad. As I said, I dont know the answer either way, just points for discussion really.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by 76mm »

I've posted a screen shot of my advance past Stalingrad. At this point I had not yet taken Saratov or Astrakhan. I'm still a bit fuzzy on how supply works in this game, but all of the units, including the leading unit which I've highlighted, seem to be drawing 100% supply. I did have occasional supply issues, but I think they were caused by mud rather than by the Volga. I'm a bit embarassed to admit that I didn't even realize that there was no bridge at Stalingrad...

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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Isokron »

I don't think your units in that screenshot is at full supply 76mm, you need to open the detail view to see that. I have no idea what that supply indicator among the ap/readiness etc stats are supposed to show but it always seems to be 100% for me. Also notice how low your readiness for all those units in the screenshot is.

My understanding (and some traces of enemy supply in my game against Bonners seems to confirm it) is that an unbridged Volga crossing cost 100 points for supply. Which mean that if you have no other penalties to your supply route then your units will receive 0.75 of their wanted supply. What that means is that in the long run (after units local supply stockpile is used) the unit can regain 10 readiness per turn instead of 20 in full supply. And of course once you reach 100 supply cost its not far (4 hexes of open terrain) to the next step at 150 cost which give you 0.5 supply and that will prevent you from regaining readiness at all in the long run.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Vic »

Dont forget that once Stalingrad has recovered its full structural points it functions as a major logistical center, helping to ease the traffic over the Wolga.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Another thing I wanted to mention: I was surprised by the high morale of the Sov units in this game, often it was higher than my German units, although morale was certainly all over the map, I think the lowest I saw was 7, and the highest 100. Overall I would have expected Sov morale to be lower.

I'm still far from understanding how unit stats influence combat resolution, but I've noticed some oddities in unit stats as well, which might or not be related to some surprising combat results I'm getting, such as GD being badly mauled by one of the typical single-hex based human wave - or meat ball, more properly - attacks that DCCB AI likes to do.

I say this is surprising because GD was well able to defeat, inflicting massive casualties, a similar assault by 3rd Mech Corps, months later, on the banks of the Luchessa River during Operation Mars.

Morale and experience values for certain German divisions seem to be a bit low. I mean, I have noticed that, in the Voronezh scenario, Grossdeutschland is modeled with its regiments having 50 experience. I need to check the values for Soviet formations on the editor, but I'd be surprised if I find experience values for 5th Tk Army tank corps units to be above 10. That is, I'm fine with elite German units not having 100's in all departments, but I'd be surprised to see that they're rated similarly as freshly formed Soviet formations.

PS: I bought this after reading Flaviusx endorsement above [:)]
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: 76mm
Another thing I wanted to mention: I was surprised by the high morale of the Sov units in this game, often it was higher than my German units, although morale was certainly all over the map, I think the lowest I saw was 7, and the highest 100. Overall I would have expected Sov morale to be lower.

I'm still far from understanding how unit stats influence combat resolution, but I've noticed some oddities in unit stats as well, which might or not be related to some surprising combat results I'm getting, such as GD being badly mauled by one of the typical single-hex based human wave - or meat ball, more properly - attacks that DCCB AI likes to do.

I say this is surprising because GD was well able to defeat, inflicting massive casualties, a similar assault by 3rd Mech Corps, months later, on the banks of the Luchessa River during Operation Mars.

Morale and experience values for certain German divisions seem to be a bit low. I mean, I have noticed that, in the Voronezh scenario, Grossdeutschland is modeled with its regiments having 50 experience. I need to check the values for Soviet formations on the editor, but I'd be surprised if I find experience values for 5th Tk Army tank corps units to be above 10. That is, I'm fine with elite German units not having 100's in all departments, but I'd be surprised to see that they're rated similarly as freshly formed Soviet formations.

PS: I bought this after reading Flaviusx endorsement above [:)]

Experience levels for reinforcement nonguard soviet units is 30, german panzer units arrive with 45 iirc.

Experience does have its value in DCCB. But in this game I've learned the hard way to first look at readiness, supply stocks and integrity before I send/expose units to battle. I'd bet your GD had attacked before they were mauled, maybe several turns in a row, which caused its readiness to be lower than 70% and had used up its supply stock to lower than 0.5. Units with integrity lower than 50% run a high risk to break if taking further heavy losses in battle. In DCCB you really have to give your units some rest once in a while, or your losses will get catastrophic real quick.

In my pbem with Bonners I successfully started to counterattack his german units (including his panzer divisions) after they had taken one or two hexes. I used rested troops I was able to mass in a second line, and if those counterattacks included a higher number of tanks I frequently was able to break several tired german regiments. My AAR is lagging hopelessly behind, but I'll post a screenshot of such an attack:



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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: Reconvet
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: 76mm
Another thing I wanted to mention: I was surprised by the high morale of the Sov units in this game, often it was higher than my German units, although morale was certainly all over the map, I think the lowest I saw was 7, and the highest 100. Overall I would have expected Sov morale to be lower.

Morale and experience values for certain German divisions seem to be a bit low. I mean, I have noticed that, in the Voronezh scenario, Grossdeutschland is modeled with its regiments having 50 experience. I need to check the values for Soviet formations on the editor, but I'd be surprised if I find experience values for 5th Tk Army tank corps units to be above 10. That is, I'm fine with elite German units not having 100's in all departments, but I'd be surprised to see that they're rated similarly as freshly formed Soviet formations.

Experience levels for reinforcement nonguard soviet units is 30, german panzer units arrive with 45 iirc.

That's not too much of a difference, really. From the manual:
ORIGINAL: Reconvet
A unit with 100% experience will fight 4 times as well in battle as unit with 0% experience.

That basically means that a freshly recruited Soviet Rifle divisions is considered to fight as well just slightly worse than a German panzer division. As anybody familiar with the WitE forums knows, I'm far from being a 'German fanboy', but this is just not right (from my point of view).
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Experience does have its value in DCCB. But in this game I've learned the hard way to first look at readiness, supply stocks and integrity before I send/expose units to battle. I'd bet your GD had attacked before they were mauled, maybe several turns in a row, which caused its readiness to be lower than 70% and had used up its supply stock to lower than 0.5. Units with integrity lower than 50% run a high risk to break if taking further heavy losses in battle. In DCCB you really have to give your units some rest once in a while, or your losses will get catastrophic real quick.

You lose your bet. GD was my exploitation unit, it had just pushed away a weak Soviet infantry regiment.

I hadn't really looked at readiness/integrity values, but I'd be surprised that they were so low as to determine such a catastrophic bad performance. On the other hand, I wonder how you can 'rest' units, when you need basically to stack up full divisions if you want a change to have chance to hold hexes against those massive counterattacks, and avoid encirclement at the same time.
ORIGINAL: Reconvet]
In my pbem with Bonners I successfully started to counterattack his german units (including his panzer divisions) after they had taken one or two hexes. I used rested troops I was able to mass in a second line, and if those counterattacks included a higher number of tanks I frequently was able to break several tired german regiments. My AAR is lagging hopelessly behind, but I'll post a screenshot of such an attack:

Thank you for your screenshots, Reconvet [:)]

That's a quite, ehm, unsettling combat result. You just wiped out two Panzer Divisions - inflicting on them 2/3 losses... from what for all practical purposes was a frontal assault (you attacked from several hexsides, but it's not like the Germans couldn't just pull out seeing that avalanche coming their way). It also seems that you were able to bring to bear a full Soviet Army (3 Rifle Divisions, 1 Tank Corps, 1 Cavalry Corps plus assorted support units) into one single hex. That's a bit out of whack.

Your tank losses are surprisingly low, for this period, as well. Looks like a battle out of early 1945 rather than late 1942.

I think I'll be doing some experiments with the editor, tweaking unit parameters. These results are very unconvincing.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Reconvet »

First of all: I am not a fanboy of any side, and I don't get money from the DCCB publishers. I just see I have way more fun with this product (and pbem) than I had with WitE. Here we have a better supply system and players units don't get their combat value artificially diminished/augmented during certain periods (in WitE axis units are turned into ants during winter while soviets run on fake steroids until getting artificially weakened again after certain dates). Trappenjagd here allowes for a fair struggle for both sides.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Another thing I wanted to mention: I was surprised by the high morale of the Sov units in this game, often it was higher than my German units, although morale was certainly all over the map, I think the lowest I saw was 7, and the highest 100. Overall I would have expected Sov morale to be lower.

Morale seems to be gained in combat by killing enemy soldiers. Don't allow your opponent easy victories, don't drive your troops too hard, deal him bloody defeats, and your units will have no morale problem. And your corps/army commanders have several cards to improve morale in units where it suffered, as have some army/front commanders. Get rid of what you saw in WitE, where morale was a restricting factor for experience, imho the system here is more fairly balanced.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: Reconvet
Experience levels for reinforcement nonguard soviet units is 30, german panzer units arrive with 45 iirc.

That's not too much of a difference, really. From the manual:
MANUAL:
A unit with 100% experience will fight 4 times as well in battle as unit with 0% experience.

That basically means that a freshly recruited Soviet Rifle divisions is considered to fight as well just slightly worse than a German panzer division. As anybody familiar with the WitE forums knows, I'm far from being a 'German fanboy', but this is just not right (from my point of view).

Believe me, you WILL feel this 15% difference in experience. Once you play with it for some time and get a better feeling when to attack and move with different readiness levels, you will see that one german infantry division has the combat strength of two to three soviet rifle divisions.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: ReconvetExperience does have its value in DCCB. But in this game I've learned the hard way to first look at readiness, supply stocks and integrity before I send/expose units to battle. I'd bet your GD had attacked before they were mauled, maybe several turns in a row, which caused its readiness to be lower than 70% and had used up its supply stock to lower than 0.5. Units with integrity lower than 50% run a high risk to break if taking further heavy losses in battle. In DCCB you really have to give your units some rest once in a while, or your losses will get catastrophic real quick.

You lose your bet. GD was my exploitation unit, it had just pushed away a weak Soviet infantry regiment.

I hadn't really looked at readiness/integrity values, but I'd be surprised that they were so low as to determine such a catastrophic bad performance. On the other hand, I wonder how you can 'rest' units, when you need basically to stack up full divisions if you want a change to have chance to hold hexes against those massive counterattacks, and avoid encirclement at the same time.

Then my second suspicion would be that your GD had moved before attacking and then moved on after the fight into the conquered hex. First of all moving eats up both readiness AND supply. So you already got weakened into the fight, exhausted your unit further with fighting, used up more ammo while fighting, and ended up significantly weakened in the new hex (no ammo or very low ammo is very bad also on defense...). I learned not to move/attack with units if possible when their readiness is lower than 85%, and let their supply stacks get over 1 (better 1.5) before moving/attacking with them.

In DCCB readiness diferences between attackers/defenders/counterattackers are a huge factor when it comes to determine battle results and losses. One strategy you could use is occupying a newly conquered hex with a unit which didn't participate in the battle and/or let your occupiers end up with improved entrenchment via playing an entrench card of a corps/army commander and/or playing a higher level card to enhance defensive strenght.
ORIGINAL: Reconvet]
In my pbem with Bonners I successfully started to counterattack his german units (including his panzer divisions) after they had taken one or two hexes. I used rested troops I was able to mass in a second line, and if those counterattacks included a higher number of tanks I frequently was able to break several tired german regiments. My AAR is lagging hopelessly behind, but I'll post a screenshot of such an attack:
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
That's a quite, ehm, unsettling combat result. You just wiped out two Panzer Divisions - inflicting on them 2/3 losses... from what for all practical purposes was a frontal assault (you attacked from several hexsides, but it's not like the Germans couldn't just pull out seeing that avalanche coming their way). It also seems that you were able to bring to bear a full Soviet Army (3 Rifle Divisions, 1 Tank Corps, 1 Cavalry Corps plus assorted support units) into one single hex. That's a bit out of whack.

Your tank losses are surprisingly low, for this period, as well. Looks like a battle out of early 1945 rather than late 1942.

It really was an extraordinary combat result. I'd have to check but both of his panzer divisions there had participated in two or even three attacks. As mentionned: Guessing relative readiness differences before you attack is very important in DCCB, and enemy units with very low readiness and not yet dug in on open fields are a prime target to exploit with your rested tanks. As for retreating facing such an attack: If you are too tired and your vehicles are out of diesel it's very hard to run away...

As for my attacking units: Most counters are regiments, so I had about 2 divisions worth of infantry (cavalry division is about equal to a strong rifle regiment), 1 tank corps, two tank brigades and an AT unit. Most of these already went into the battle with integrity around 50%. So I didn't have what I'd call full army strenght for this attack.

Low tank losses: If defending units are out of ammo, have no prepared defensive positions and go into the fight near their breaking point, then the battle can turn into a rout real quick. This overrun capability is something I really enjoy here and terribly missed in WitE. This battle result was an extreme example for sure, but I wouldn't call it out of whack. Both sides can get such battle results when the other side is not planning ahead sufficiently in what condition and position he leaves his troops at the end of his turn.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by LiquidSky »

Just some random thoughts on combat:

Units cannot break until they reach 50% integrity. That means half the unit has already been wiped out.

A panicked unit will suffer greater casualties in combat...a unit panics when it loses more units then it's morale can handle.

Units can carry up to 20 'rounds' of ammo. Every 10AP's spent in combat is a round. It takes more then a day to regain it. So if you fight continuously, you will end up with little/no ammo.

The different components that make up a unit have different strengths. Infantry has a soft attack of 10. Most tanks are from 40-50.

A single counter can hold off the enemy for a turn. If it is rested. At a good entrenchment level. And has a decent morale level.

Almost no hex can withstand a full strike of supplied artillery, followed by an airstrike....and an attack card. Especially if you attack from three hex sides.

Units lose readiness for moving. Attacking. Being attacked. Being bombarded/airstruck. You only regain a bit each turn. More if you are in green supply, less if you are not. None if you are red.

Tanks are much better at attacking then defending.

Basically, you have to think about combat in this game. Do you have sufficient reason to attack? Do you have follow up troops to take the hex and hold it from counter attack? Do you even take the hex? Do you exploit behind him in hopes that he will back up his line? Or are you just giving him an easy attack from multiple hex sides?

Ideally, I will hit a hex with fully supplied artillery, and a 100-120 stack of planes. I will play an army card on the corp to get Freedom/Lead/Gamble. I may play attack on a division, or I may save it for defense after taking the hex. After combat, I will take the hex with a division that did not attack ( and either play defense or entrenchment)

I will sometimes launch spoiler strikes on units that could counterattack me. (to lower his readiness)
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Bonners »

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Ideally, I will hit a hex with fully supplied artillery, and a 100-120 stack of planes. I will play an army card on the corp to get Freedom/Lead/Gamble. I may play attack on a division, or I may save it for defense after taking the hex. After combat, I will take the hex with a division that did not attack ( and either play defense or entrenchment)

I will sometimes launch spoiler strikes on units that could counterattack me. (to lower his readiness)

All this is something that is gradually dawning on me. The whole post is really informative and the moving into hexes with weakened units really sums up where I have gone wrong in both my campaigns where I've been the Germans on the attack.

However, let's take the discussion one step further. That is all very well in an ideal world, but unfortunately you have OKH breathing down your neck. How do you try and push offensives a little bit further and faster when you are running out of time to take objectives? That is where I really struggle. I always seem to be behind schedule and that is when I end up doing rash and hasty attacks or broad front attacks.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Bonners

However, let's take the discussion one step further. That is all very well in an ideal world, but unfortunately you have OKH breathing down your neck. How do you try and push offensives a little bit further and faster when you are running out of time to take objectives? That is where I really struggle. I always seem to be behind schedule and that is when I end up doing rash and hasty attacks or broad front attacks.

I can't really comment yet on Axis strategies, haven't played a pbem from their side yet. My guess is I would not go for all 3 major objectives (Voronezh/Millerowo/Rostow) at the same time but concentrate on two of those, at least in Trappenjagd. If you split up your mobile units on all 3 objectives you are probably bound to fail on more than one. And use your mobile units on terrain suited for tanks (river crossings is better left to infantry divisions, your panzer divisions are too precious for that), search opportunities to let them overrun enemy counters. Each counter you take off the map is one you don't have to fight again.

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RE: Looking at DCCB

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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by LiquidSky »



A few of the objectives I have needed to take, I have gotten because I threatened the flanks. I made my opponent decide if keeping the objective was more important then losing the units.

But sometimes you just can't take the objective. In my game, I did not take Rostov the first time. I may have let it go the second time as well, (but I think I took it the second time). Stalingrad I let go the first time ( Actually, I was no where near it ). The second time I was close to the city, but didn't bother trying as I figured the lost of men was not as important as the objective. I played the card Avoid Stalingrad so I wouldn't see a third time.

Minor objectives pop up randomly. I had two 4 pointers right next to each other in the Caucaus. So I tasked two Panzer Korps to driving south to take them. Because of my aar, my opponent knew one of them, and actually tried to prevent me from taking it, but to no avail. Others pop up in places where I am weak...so I ignore them. Better to lose prestige then men. And you can always get prestige later.
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RE: Looking at DCCB

Post by LiquidSky »



Millerowo is easy to take....it can be outflanked. The Russians will probably hand it to you for free.

Voronezh or Rostov will be hard. Very hard. I don't think you can take both against a competent Russian. He may hold on to both if he is reckless in abandoning the middle. The terrain is just too good. So it is probably best to pick one or the other. Either bring up all the artillery/11th army and assault your way into Rostov, or use the mobile units to try and cut south of Voronezh to cut it off. I took Voronezh to a trick by bombing all the bridges leading into the city, when his HQ's were on the wrong side of the river....

I did flirt with the idea of ignoring Rostov. If you do, you will not be asked to take anything in the Caucaus until Stalingrad falls. But there is no Avoid Rostov card, so you will pay in prestige. (and give the Russians prestige)
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