Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[mmarquo]

"To defeat Soviets you have to capture quite some industry in '41. Unless you do the new opening in the south, things are much tougher now than they used to be... I would say that Leningrad can be defended now vs many players, Moscow can usually be defended, and getting to Rostov (unless you manage huge pockets in the south before turn 8) is tougher than before. To be honest, you play this game long enough to be well aware of all those... "

And what does this sounds like? History, perhaps?? [8|]

[Gabriel B.]

@Toidi

The soviet unit was located in swamp terrain that gave them the equivalent of a level 2 fortification level.

Lucky for you, the pioneers were present otherwise both (hasty ) atacks would have failed . I hope it is not common for you to do hasty atacks on terrain that favours the defender.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"To defeat Soviets you have to capture quite some industry in '41. Unless you do the new opening in the south, things are much tougher now than they used to be... I would say that Leningrad can be defended now vs many players, Moscow can usually be defended, and getting to Rostov (unless you manage huge pockets in the south before turn 8) is tougher than before. To be honest, you play this game long enough to be well aware of all those... "

And what does this sounds like? History, perhaps?? [8|]

In case the German campaign in 41 really goes similarly to history (which in terms of losses it still doesn't), the German will be unfairly punished due to the still unrealistic blizzard.

[Toidi]

Gabriel,

1. The cv multiplier due to terrain is already applied at the beginning (top number). As such this initial number already take it into account. That is why it is quite high (for an isolated unit, that is). The only case the cv modification may not be taken into account at initial number (but I am unsure about that case) is when you attack with tanks and the rule about making tanks less effective in swamp kicks in. Here it is pretty clear infantry vs infantry, so that issue is removed.
2. When the unit is isolated, it is relatively common to do hasty. I am comfortable with them as long as I have 4:1 or more initial odds. Again, the cv you see on top already takes into account that it is a hasty attack and the cv is halved.
3. There are clear issues with the cv value/ initial odds and the battle engine which determines final cv - I could accept that German cv value would go down somewhat due to hasty attack. It is not the case as the unit is well supplied, has ammo, within leadership range etc. However, when the Soviet cv is multiplied by 5 (first case) or 10 (second case), something is wrong. Especially taking into account that the unit is not within HQ range and - in the second case - the unit retreated already.

Anyway, for me it does not seems legit - if you think it is fine, well, let's agree to disagree.

T.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Toidi

Pelton,

Before the morale change, I would agree 100% with what you say... I guess an expert Axis would have very good chances defeating me. After the morale change, I think even very good players will have issues winning, even if I am not a great SU player. That is because you around turn 5 suddenly have around 50 - 100 units which are actually usable and do not have to sit behind the lines for refit...

To defeat Soviets you have to capture quite some industry in '41. Unless you do the new opening in the south, things are much tougher now than they used to be... I would say that Leningrad can be defended now vs many players, Moscow can usually be defended, and getting to Rostov (unless you manage huge pockets in the south before turn 8) is tougher than before. To be honest, you play this game long enough to be well aware of all those...

Anyway, good luck with optimising your Axis strategy...

T.

You can rout 80 morale units.

In the past unlike most or all GHC players I do not rely on routs to achieve breakthroughs. A single stack of 3 PZ divisions and one herder division can make a hole in any 2 layers line in 41. then simply drive through 2 more PZ Corp.

Basicly now you have to use 1942 panzer tactics in 1941 is all. 2 panzer balls.

[Maximeba]

[quoteFirst of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player.

2nd Germany has been nerfed to death over the yrs to balance the game. So your whining is not going to help make the game better.

Unlike yourself green horn most of the guys debating this issue have been around and want the game to be balanced. WE SUPPORT GHC AND SHC, not one side.

MT is undefeated as SHC and GHC 3+ yrs running so if he posts about something being unbalanced then it probably is sonny boy.

Read some threads and learn something from the guys that have been here for a long time or you will always be a non-factor.[/b]


][/quote]

Wow, that was rude.

[Toidi]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You can rout 80 morale units.

In the past unlike most or all GHC players I do not rely on routs to achieve breakthroughs. A single stack of 3 PZ divisions and one herder division can make a hole in any 2 layers line in 41. then simply drive through 2 more PZ Corp.

Basicly now you have to use 1942 panzer tactics in 1941 is all. 2 panzer balls.

Pelton, this does work in '42, but that is because the morale of SU in '42 is lower and Axis logistic is better. At least in the areas where such a strategy does work. And this strategy is all fine now in '41 till maybe turn 10. Around that time, unless you managed to pocket 2 millions already, you will start having problems... at least against a competent (but not expert) Soviet player. Also, the strategy you described will work well in clear, but not if you have to cross a river (minor river is enough) and have 50% of mp in those corps you did not do the buildup.

For me the major issue is that you can now push divisions many times (my record is 7 subsequent pushes as it did not want to get out of the way), and a single herding division may not be enough. And is certainly not enough in other terrain than clear, no rivers.

But in general I agree - 2 Panzer balls is the way to go (and it is exactly what I am doing apart of maybe 2 panzer corps), but my execution of this very strategy stops working around turn 10. You are better at that, so you may be more successful (and I will be certainly more successful the next game I play), but nonetheless getting just historical advance now is very difficult, at least for me. It had been tough before (see your game vs MT) but it could be done granted the Axis player is more experienced than the Soviet one. Also, 2 pazer balls strategy is somewhat gamey and not resembling much of what was happening in '41.

Anyway, to win, Axis generally need to at least advance historically + Leningrad, preferably + Moscow (or advance not historically, but quickly enough to capture Stalino/Kharkov and get all the industry there). To make this happen with the new patch is much more difficult than before, even when the opponent is not equally skilled. As the general consensus was that before the balance of '41 was more or less fine, things should be changed.

(and of course, you will still do very fine against a newbie who will defend in a forward manner in the open, but other than that, I don't think so)

T.

[rmonical]

Anyway, as it stands, I would say that '41 is almost unplayable.

This is my first CG as Soviet. This is the overall situation. Toide is running ahead of historical I think. Toide sent Pz Korps North and South from AGC and I still could not hold the Dnepr line. I did strongly reinforce Leningrad and that is the only front he is stalled. He may be able to do the right hook around Lake Ilman as it is only turn 9.

[rmonical]

I continue to think that whatever change we recommend, it should be validated by extensive playtest using the Road to scenarios. These are the closest thing we have to validating game mechanics against historical ground truth.

For example, the Lvov opening breaks RtK & RtD even with the morale boost. Is RtL still an easy German win when it was not historically? You might need to modify the AGN and AGC scenarios to put Stavka on-map.

Just asking the devs to "fix" one thing with these anecdotal stories is, IMHO, fruitless.

[Michael T]

No German player with any sense is going to begin a new game with the stock morale rules. To argue that the game is not a total walk over for good Soviet players these days is just nonsense. There is no need for debate about it anymore. The results we are seeing speak for themselves. A Red Army made up of a good proportion of CV 3 and 4 ID is ludicrous in 1941.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

I continue to think that whatever change we recommend, it should be validated by extensive playtest using the Road to scenarios. These are the closest thing we have to validating game mechanics against historical ground truth.

For example, the Lvov opening breaks RtK & RtD even with the morale boost. Is RtL still an easy German win when it was not historically? You might need to modify the AGN and AGC scenarios to put Stavka on-map.

Just asking the devs to "fix" one thing with these anecdotal stories is, IMHO, fruitless.

This morale fix was never extensively playtested. The whole point of this exercise is to revert the game to something like what it was prior to it.

The Road To Scenarios, which actually work very well as far as they go, do not produce results that can be meaningfully applied to a campaign game. Simply put, people do stuff in campaign games they cannot do in scenarios. You have to compare apples to apples.

I happen to think the campaign game in 41 is completely broken quite aside from this morale business, btw. It was broken before it. It's broken now. It will remain broken even if we fix this morale mess. Quite frankly, those Road to Scenarios you point at do a much better job at recreating history than the campaign game can.

[Michael T]

Interesting to look at the Moscow 41-42 Scenario in Lost battles. Not sure how it would be possible for a campaign game to get to the same morale levels for both sides at the same point in time as Moscow 41-42 starts. Lots of Reds at around 35-40 and lots of German Pz's 90 plus. So we know what the designers would like to see at Sept 41 but they offer no way for a CG to get there! [:D]

[821Bobo]

I have recently started game as Soviet. Screenshots are from T2 and T3. Most of the divisions have CV 2 at least. I have problem to find CV 1 division.


Turn 2


Turn 3

[BletchleyGeek]

It's not only the CV... just look at the MP values. Rifle Divisions with 14 or 16 MP's are even more valuable than divisions with 3-4 CV, not to mention the somewhat cheaper costs to move through enemy held hexes...

[morvael]

Please note that anything from 1.1 to 1.9 becomes 2 in CR, because it uses different rounding. Most 2s will be 1s on the map.

[Michael T]

One really need only to look at the morale levels [8|]

[morvael]

Here are my forces from the start of turn 3 (started last September, on 1.6.19):

[morvael]

Some 50+ were always there, even without the patch.

[Michael T]

Yes this problem has only surfaced recently, but it seems it has been possible for some time. However the ability to raise Soviet morale to absurd levels in a matter of 3 to 4 turns is a fact.

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Please note that anything from 1.1 to 1.9 becomes 2 in CR, because it uses different rounding. Most 2s will be 1s on the map.

Same game, turn 2. Doesn't look like CV1 on map.