Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'll take you in another direction again Nic. Any consideration on expanding some Light or Heavy Industry in Japan very early in the war as some of it will pay back by 45?? Since Refineries don't produce supply in DBB, this has to be considered. Maybe even in Manchuria as it sees even less 4e bombers.

Ohhh... the question that has no answers! I've followed the debate that has arisen in the forum during the last two years about that... to be honest? I don't know... Probably i'll expand some HI at Sosarbaja and GeorgeTown...i'll think about doing so in Japan... not so sure about the long term benefits to be honest

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
]


I really don't wanna abuse the Realistic RnD OFF system. For example I won't convert the A6M2 factories to A6M2 Sen Baku ones. I would like to play a game as much realistic as possible. So to say, we all know that the Ki-44b is crap...but the Japanese didn't know that. probably they would need a feedback from the pilots first before moving to the KI-44c line.

That's what I will do! I'll keep RnD the mid-models even if I wouldn't want to fly them. Tojo IIb, J2M3 etc...and I will produce them too!
So, to be clear, say I have 4x30 factories RnD the KI-44a. When the Ki-44a will be available, i'll change one of them to production and change 3x30 to RnD the "b" model and so on...



I could not agree with this more. Frankly, I have always been suspicious of the research model that allows for parallel research of models that I suspect were sequential. Frankly, I would have expected that a player should have to completely research the Ki-44b before converting the research effort to the Ki-44c. I get very rationale (seeming) results playing Japanese R&D this way. The whole line gets accelerated, dogs and all. Meanwhile, parallel research efforts are going on for different airframes entirely.

[ny59giants]

More than 1 port strike - I usually allow this with the need to also have carrier based planes participate in the strike. So Manila is allowed if mini-KB is also launching strikes.

[Cribtop]

In a Scenario 1 game I got good results expanding total HI moderately. Most was in Georgetown and Singers, but I did some in China as well. Part of that was a response to a stubborn pool of fuel, supplies and resources that developed in Hong Kong once I opened the land route to SE Asia, however. I repaired some LI in Java as well, but that was done for military reasons (make the place self sufficient supply wise) rather than economic reasons. I suspect by the letter of the law that would not have paid back.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'll take you in another direction again Nic. Any consideration on expanding some Light or Heavy Industry in Japan very early in the war as some of it will pay back by 45?? Since Refineries don't produce supply in DBB, this has to be considered. Maybe even in Manchuria as it sees even less 4e bombers.

Ohhh... the question that has no answers! I've followed the debate that has arisen in the forum during the last two years about that... to be honest? I don't know... Probably i'll expand some HI at Sosarbaja and GeorgeTown...i'll think about doing so in Japan... not so sure about the long term benefits to be honest

I've had good results in a scenario 1 and 2 game with expanding HI in Canton and Hong Kong too in addition to these areas (and Singapore). The HK and Canton expansions are helpful for supply in China and are a no-brainer for easy access to DEI fuel supplies.

[PaxMondo]

Nic,

If I was you, I would go buy a case of nice wine ... a mellow red from down near Foggia maybe, and then get on a Train and go visit Francois. He's got the only AAR in a long time on a PDU OFF. His insight as to what to R&D would be invaluable IMHO. Besides, I think he would be great company in "breaking" a few bottles. Thats just me though ... [;)]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Nic,

If I was you, I would go buy a case of nice wine ... a mellow red from down near Foggia maybe, and then get on a Train and go visit Francois. He's got the only AAR in a long time on a PDU OFF. His insight as to what to R&D would be invaluable IMHO. Besides, I think he would be great company in "breaking" a few bottles. Thats just me though ... [;)]

[:D] True Pax! I've always read Francois's AAR. I'll have to ask him for some production details[&o]

Anyway, I've almost finished the orders for the navy... man, the first turn is so HUGE...[X(][X(][X(]

However, China and the air units are still missing, but we're getting there. Think i'll be ready by the end of the week end.

So far, the plan for the first week is pretty clear in my mind: DEI/SRA will have the priority.

The first landings will occur at Kotha Baru, Miri, Jolo, Lyngayen, San Fernando, Legaspi, followed by Kudati, Brunei, Jesselton, Aparri, Puerto Princesa, Kuching...usual stuff.

Mindano won't be immediately invested. Only after the air superiority will be gained over southern Luzon.

The KB will attack PH, while the Kaga will be moved to Saigon in order to support the advance in the DEI. CVL Ryujo will be resized and requipped before committing her to battle. She and Zuiho will join the Kaga for a mini-KB in the DEI.
The South Sea Det will go to Truk first, then Rabaul. Guam will be invested by SNLF units.

Malaya will get the priority over Luzon, getting 5 Divisions.

Burma can wait a bit for the moment. However the 33rd Division will join the 55th as usual.

Nothing very strange. Solid approach. The war is long and this is a PDU OFF game. Can't make any major mistake here.

Plans for China are still taking shape in my mind.

In the CENTPAC and SOPAC I'm leaning towards a very slow approach. Marshalls, Rabaul, Solomons as usual. PM will be invested and so will be Horn Island, but i'll take my time. Not sure if I wanna go to Noumea and Suva. Not sure yet. Hate the long SLOCs...

My mind is focused on supplies in this match. On the long term goals.... getting to 1945 with a good economic situation...and I do not mean HIs... supplies are much more important!

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In a Scenario 1 game I got good results expanding total HI moderately. Most was in Georgetown and Singers, but I did some in China as well. Part of that was a response to a stubborn pool of fuel, supplies and resources that developed in Hong Kong once I opened the land route to SE Asia, however. I repaired some LI in Java as well, but that was done for military reasons (make the place self sufficient supply wise) rather than economic reasons. I suspect by the letter of the law that would not have paid back.

Well, Georgetown will surely get some HI and so will Sosarbaja...but nothing extraordinary. Possibly i'll get some more LIs in Hokkaido were there are plenty of res... but I still do not see the real benefits of these investements... gotta think about it.
For sure the HI drinks a lot of fuel...and fuel is so important to keep the navy moving...mmm...

[princep01]

Hummmmm, no mention of the Aleutians? While those frozen islands are understandably not at the top of the priority list, it won't take long for the Allies to secure Dutch Harbor, Unmak and Adak with regimental strength units. They start with next to nothing there.

Yes, it is a diversion; one designed to keep Allied eyes on the Aleutians and off the Kuriles, but a substantial delay will give these springboard islands to the Allies at no cost at all. It is a worthy diversion.

What about Midway? Any thoughts on grabbing it? Anything you do early that forces the Allies to focus on targets that are important to him, but not you, is a temporal gift not to be ignored. Time can be made your ally.

I would consider attacks on New Caledonia and the Fijis for the same reason. Who says you have to bother supplying and supporting the troops that grab these locations. Yes, these attacks are usually suicidal for the land troops used, but if the Allies have to use a couple of months of planning and troop movement to get them back, it is a gain for you with little cost. Again, it is a matter of disputing his plans and forcing him to use time to retake these places. I see it much as I see landings in Northern Australia. There is no real intent to hold it, just the intention of forcing the opponent to dance to your tune and the temporal gain you obtain.

Most Allied players use most, if not all, of 1942 just repositioning units and supplies and trying to retake a few of the islands/locations taken from them by the IJ earlier in '42. Disrupting the Allies' orderly, low cost repositioning effort should be a goal for the latter half of the year. While some Allied players are much more offensive minded even in 1942, most are just trying to survive and then reposition for 1943 offensives. Your opponent, being the experienced admiral he is, may be of the offensive type, but it still doesn't really affect the above observations as it pertains to 1942.

Good luck Greyjoy. Being Iron-born and of the Drowned Man, I am sure you will prevail. Should you venture inland so far as Dreadfort, I do invite you to stop by for a chat. we will use the great hall rather than the dungeon this time. I am sure it will be fun to follow your AAR.

Bolton

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

In the CENTPAC and SOPAC I'm leaning towards a very slow approach. Marshalls, Rabaul, Solomons as usual. PM will be invested and so will be Horn Island, but i'll take my time. Not sure if I wanna go to Noumea and Suva. Not sure yet. Hate the long SLOCs...

My mind is focused on supplies in this match. On the long term goals.... getting to 1945 with a good economic situation...and I do not mean HIs... supplies are much more important!

I would at least secure Luganville and New Caledonia. It is a bit of pain to supply but if you don't then the allies can threaten Rabaul fairly early in the game. Suva is a matter of flavour and circumstance I would say.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
supplies are much more important!

If you can't get to Francois, then I would re-read all of Alfred's posts on PDU-OFF upgrades. I don't think you will have any supply issues if you practice a modicum of moderation.

[fcharton]

Hi Greyjoy,

As for R&D, I believe you need to take a look at the "upgrade" column of the Air Production tab in tracker, which tells you which models you can use as standards in PDU off. In my opinion, most of the research should focus on the Zero line, and then the Sams, for the IJN, and the Oscars and Franks for the IJA. The Nick is a good investment too, as you get them pretty early, and in larger numbers than the Tonies (the George is not that useful in PDU off, as you only get one squadron of the early model). Same for Tojos, even though the line ends at the IIc, and you don't get a lot of them.

Apart from those, I'm not sure it is worth advancing so many models, especially those factories that won't convert to later models, or won't need to build many planes (because not many squadrons can upgrade).


I believe it is more useful to keep many factories small, and convert and increase them a few months before a new model comes online. As you're close to the availability date, they repair fast, and you get full production as soon as the plane is available (and you get to keep your real research factories researching).

Also, note that there are quite a few early game models that are not so great, but you need to produce in numbers, because those squadrons that use them won't upgrade, or only do so very late in the game (patrols, recon, transports). It is a good idea to build those stocks at game start, and then forget about those models, use the squadrons that can't upgrade as training outfits, and live off the stocks you've built. In general, it is a good idea of have a mix of very large factories that produce those big line you need all through the game (zeroes, oscars and the like), and a lot of smaller one that you use to build pools of one rare model, and then turn to another model, and so on.

One important aspect of PDU off is that whereas you do have decent planes available, you don't get to choose the squadrons that use them. As a result, you often find yourself rotating former combat squadrons to training roles, once they can't have modern frames anymore, and move training outfits to the front line once they get modern frames. This means spending PP, obviously, but also planning your base HQ. As a rule, it is a good idea to have Kwantung bases in China, and even in Burma, and China Exp bases in indochina, and to assign the Kuriles and maybe also the Marianas to General Defense: this will allow you to use some of the restricted squadrons you can't buy.

Finally, keep in mind that one of the benefits of PDU off is that it can save a LOT of supplies. If you rotate your squadrons and invest on a few fighter lines (which fortunately all use the same engines), you should have enough modern planes at the front for an attrition campaign.

Francois

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Greyjoy,

As for R&D, I believe you need to take a look at the "upgrade" column of the Air Production tab in tracker, which tells you which models you can use as standards in PDU off. In my opinion, most of the research should focus on the Zero line, and then the Sams, for the IJN, and the Oscars and Franks for the IJA. The Nick is a good investment too, as you get them pretty early, and in larger numbers than the Tonies (the George is not that useful in PDU off, as you only get one squadron of the early model). Same for Tojos, even though the line ends at the IIc, and you don't get a lot of them.

Apart from those, I'm not sure it is worth advancing so many models, especially those factories that won't convert to later models, or won't need to build many planes (because not many squadrons can upgrade).


I believe it is more useful to keep many factories small, and convert and increase them a few months before a new model comes online. As you're close to the availability date, they repair fast, and you get full production as soon as the plane is available (and you get to keep your real research factories researching).

Also, note that there are quite a few early game models that are not so great, but you need to produce in numbers, because those squadrons that use them won't upgrade, or only do so very late in the game (patrols, recon, transports). It is a good idea to build those stocks at game start, and then forget about those models, use the squadrons that can't upgrade as training outfits, and live off the stocks you've built. In general, it is a good idea of have a mix of very large factories that produce those big line you need all through the game (zeroes, oscars and the like), and a lot of smaller one that you use to build pools of one rare model, and then turn to another model, and so on.

One important aspect of PDU off is that whereas you do have decent planes available, you don't get to choose the squadrons that use them. As a result, you often find yourself rotating former combat squadrons to training roles, once they can't have modern frames anymore, and move training outfits to the front line once they get modern frames. This means spending PP, obviously, but also planning your base HQ. As a rule, it is a good idea to have Kwantung bases in China, and even in Burma, and China Exp bases in indochina, and to assign the Kuriles and maybe also the Marianas to General Defense: this will allow you to use some of the restricted squadrons you can't buy.

Finally, keep in mind that one of the benefits of PDU off is that it can save a LOT of supplies. If you rotate your squadrons and invest on a few fighter lines (which fortunately all use the same engines), you should have enough modern planes at the front for an attrition campaign.

Francois

Thanks a lot Francois! Very useful informations!

I think i agree with all your statements. I've read all your wonderfull AAR and all the considerations you've written about air production.
I have made up my mind. Zero line and Oscar line will be my main RnD efforts.
Only 2 factories will be devoted to J2M line and 3 to N1K line.
Ki-84 and A7M will also be heavily researched.

However i'll produce lots of planes and will try to remain balanced between availability and production needs.

Will be fun!

[GreyJoy]

Ok guys, after several days of hard testing and planning, the first turn is sent to Obvert.
The war is beginning.
Japan will be much more aggressive than my usual habits.


These are the final HRs:

Strat bombing:




manpower strikes allowed during daylight

manpower strikes allowed during night with sliding scale:




25 planes/target in 41

50 planes/target in 42

100 planes/target in 43

200 planes/target in 44

400 planes/target in 45-46.




CV strikes allowed for any strategic target at any time.




Night bombing port/airfield:




50 planes/target for the entire war.




Aerial mining:




50 planes/target only at night for the entire war.




First turn:




No restrictions on port strikes for IJ

No new TFs for Allies but existing may move

No air groups changing location, but can change CAP settings

No crazy deep *TF moves (Mersing)




Altitude of CAP/sweep:




15k in 41

20k in 42

25k in 43

32k in 44-46.




PP for borders:




Minus Thai and Burmese units




Ground bombing:




No 4E ground bombing




Settings:





DBB scen 30, PDU OFF, Realistic RnD OFF, Replacements OFF, expand OFF, 7th Dec Surprise ON, Historical Start OFF, Auto Subs OFF

[witpqs]

GJ,

Curious about the aerial mining - why restricted to nighttime?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

GJ,

Curious about the aerial mining - why restricted to nighttime?

Basically because we both think aerial mining is overpowered.i've never used in my games. The fact that planes cannot be intercepted really screws things up... With this limitation (in numbers and at night) should make things interesting but at the same time not abusable...
2000 mines in a single massive strike that can't be intercepted is just silly and simply ruins the game imho

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Spidery

You need about 6 factories on the Ki-94-II to expect to have it available in December 1944. 4 factories would have it available mid January 1945 (or you could get lucky or unlucky - there is a lot of spread with long research times).

If you plan to survive to May 1946 then that gives you 15 months to use it and you should have the supply, engines and HI to deploy it.

Do you have any altitude HR? If you do, it may handicap the Ki-94-II as the max ceiling is its biggest strength.

Yes, we will have limited altitude to 32K from 1944 on...

Really seems too much of investment for a 1945/46 plane.

I'm leaning towards the very same option I used with QBall... stopping any RnD after Ki-84 line...so to say get the N1K1, the J2M3, the KI-84a and then stop and let the rest arrive when the time has come...

I like this.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

GJ,

Curious about the aerial mining - why restricted to nighttime?

Basically because we both think aerial mining is overpowered.i've never used in my games. The fact that planes cannot be intercepted really screws things up... With this limitation (in numbers and at night) should make things interesting but at the same time not abusable...
2000 mines in a single massive strike that can't be intercepted is just silly and simply ruins the game imho

Just FYI, it was fixed at some point in the Betas and it has been confirmed that aerial mining can be intercepted. Which of course does not address concerns about size of missions.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

GJ,

Curious about the aerial mining - why restricted to nighttime?

Basically because we both think aerial mining is overpowered.i've never used in my games. The fact that planes cannot be intercepted really screws things up... With this limitation (in numbers and at night) should make things interesting but at the same time not abusable...
2000 mines in a single massive strike that can't be intercepted is just silly and simply ruins the game imho

Just FYI, it was fixed at some point in the Betas and it has been confirmed that aerial mining can be intercepted. Which of course does not address concerns about size of missions.

Oh really? That i didn't know!
Will talk about it with Erik. We have plenty of time before the aerial mining becomes active anyway.
Thanks mate!

[GreyJoy]

Again about the air production...

So i heavily stressed the Oscar line as i said.
I wanna get to the Oscar IIb ASAP. The armour is a must to hope not to waste too many precious pilots.

I'll also devote 2 factories to the Lily (KI-48) line in order to get the dive bomber version of the Lily at a decent time. With a good IJAAf training program, i'd like to have, by mid 1943, a good number of crack army DB groups, so to give some relief to the Navy LBA bombers (which are Always in the bulk of the fighting forge).