Spanking of the Sheep! - Allied Surrender on T53

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loki100
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
Totally different games, I wouldn't use WITE as a base because so much is different in the air and logistics.

I can still learn a lot I believe. All of you seem to have played WITE expensively while I havn´t played anything but AI just after release. So much of the ground stuff is Greek to me. [:)]

Would agree that the totality of the WiTE combat engine doesn't translate well, mainly as in key respects WiTW is so much better, but the mechanics of the land combat is much the same. Some tricks from WiTE don't really apply as they rely on mass and diversionary attacks (something the Soviets can sustain but not the Western Allies), but the comments below may help a little.


a) Command matters, the ideal is your best leadership in a chain so that if one level misses a check it can be picked up. Usually the corps has the most immediate impact but leaders at Army/Army Group level can affect a much greater number of formations - so this is a trade off. Also some leaders may be better with no armour, or lots of armour so don't be afraid to shift them around
b) with the Anglo-Allies you have lots of capacity to commit Support Units, so make sure your key divisions have the full number of slots and make sure that artillery etc is at corps level as well
c) terrain matters, not just with the obvious multipliers/divisors but also that armour works very badly in cities and high level defensive terrain - this means that tank SUs (above) may not always be the equipment of choice, more engineers or more artillery may do you more good
d) tiredness kills, watch your fatigue levels, this start to impact really badly on combat capacity
e) tiredness kills, make sure your opponent has high fatigue, attacks to force commitment of reserves, shifting the focus of your offensive etc all help here
f) disruption causes fatigue ... bit obscure but if you disrupt, even if you don't attack, there is a possibility that in curing the disruption, a unit builds up fatigue -- so a sustained air war can really pay off indirectly
g) disruption means you don't fight .. a disrupted element cannot fight, so the more long range weaponry (ie artillery) you have, the more disruption you cause before combat comes down to the serious business of taking ground ... in effect the same notional cv without artillery is less dangerous than with artillery
h) Elements matter, the make up of your units is important. Not just the obvious armour-infantry distinction but also that each element fires, so the more elements/cv the more activity. This is a common issue in WiTE where Soviet units can be relatively weak (in cv terms), but have loads of elements, and thus generate a lot of (weak) firepower ... each hit can cause disruption ... see above
i) Supply and ammo matter, make sure that you are not attacking with low ammo, it really degrades your effectiveness, low supply has an impact on unit morale
j) reserves matter, the final odds are not just the units in the designated hexes but the commitment of reserves. Make sure your attacks are organised so you can pull in reserves, watch out for enemy reserves. With the allies, getting high interdiction around a critical battlefield is important here. Reserve commitment is linked to good leadership and also is more likely if you have broken down into regimental sized units. But, esp with the Germans, if you commit reserves in an area of high interdiction, they will be disrupted etc by the the time they fight and may well be useless afterwards
k) indirect attacks work, this is harder in WiTW (less units) but if you really want hex #a and you fear strong reserves, hit hex #b with a force strong enough to worry the enemy and pull in his reserves there (think of the interaction between Goodwood and Cobra). You need to make your secondary attack feasible or the combat routine will not trigger reserves (and of course make sure your own reserves don't go off and join in - flip reserve status on (if attacking) when you want it. Interdiction is your friend in this respect in WiTW.
l) intelligence matters, esp in WiTW on initial contact a unit may not be telling the truth with its cv, if you can wait a turn to see what is there before you commit, if you can't wait, then assume its far more powerful than is being indicated
m) never attack beyond the corps command range, so for landings make sure your corps are offshore. Equally its better to avoid those niggly 10% malus for mixing corps etc, again with the allies in particular there is no reason not to juggle corps to avoid problems in this regard

In effect, the displayed cv is very useful but its a guide not the answer. There are things you can do to make actual performance better or worse at the point of combat and a lot you can do to set things up in your favour.

The best learning tool is the advice in WiTE, save your game, set up an attack (this is assuming you are playing the AI as this means repeating the combat), set the resolution relatively low (say 4 or 5) and watch what fires when, the interaction of air/artillery on the combat. Do it again with different SU assignments. Do it again (be aware there is a large random element at play). Come to a feeling when a notional 1-1 attack may well succeed say 80% of the time (I've learnt how to manage this in WiTE), equally when does a notional 2-1 fail?

There is no harm to doing a turn or so left hand vs right hand so that you can adjust the force mix on both sides - any of the France 1944 scenarios are good for this.
JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin
Totally different games, I wouldn't use WITE as a base because so much is different in the air and logistics.

I can still learn a lot I believe. All of you seem to have played WITE expensively while I havn´t played anything but AI just after release. So much of the ground stuff is Greek to me. [:)]

Would agree that the totality of the WiTE combat engine doesn't translate well, mainly as in key respects WiTW is so much better, but the mechanics of the land combat is much the same. Some tricks from WiTE don't really apply as they rely on mass and diversionary attacks (something the Soviets can sustain but not the Western Allies), but the comments below may help a little.


a) Command matters, the ideal is your best leadership in a chain so that if one level misses a check it can be picked up. Usually the corps has the most immediate impact but leaders at Army/Army Group level can affect a much greater number of formations - so this is a trade off. Also some leaders may be better with no armour, or lots of armour so don't be afraid to shift them around
b) with the Anglo-Allies you have lots of capacity to commit Support Units, so make sure your key divisions have the full number of slots and make sure that artillery etc is at corps level as well
c) terrain matters, not just with the obvious multipliers/divisors but also that armour works very badly in cities and high level defensive terrain - this means that tank SUs (above) may not always be the equipment of choice, more engineers or more artillery may do you more good
d) tiredness kills, watch your fatigue levels, this start to impact really badly on combat capacity
e) tiredness kills, make sure your opponent has high fatigue, attacks to force commitment of reserves, shifting the focus of your offensive etc all help here
f) disruption causes fatigue ... bit obscure but if you disrupt, even if you don't attack, there is a possibility that in curing the disruption, a unit builds up fatigue -- so a sustained air war can really pay off indirectly
g) disruption means you don't fight .. a disrupted element cannot fight, so the more long range weaponry (ie artillery) you have, the more disruption you cause before combat comes down to the serious business of taking ground ... in effect the same notional cv without artillery is less dangerous than with artillery
h) Elements matter, the make up of your units is important. Not just the obvious armour-infantry distinction but also that each element fires, so the more elements/cv the more activity. This is a common issue in WiTE where Soviet units can be relatively weak (in cv terms), but have loads of elements, and thus generate a lot of (weak) firepower ... each hit can cause disruption ... see above
i) Supply and ammo matter, make sure that you are not attacking with low ammo, it really degrades your effectiveness, low supply has an impact on unit morale
j) reserves matter, the final odds are not just the units in the designated hexes but the commitment of reserves. Make sure your attacks are organised so you can pull in reserves, watch out for enemy reserves. With the allies, getting high interdiction around a critical battlefield is important here. Reserve commitment is linked to good leadership and also is more likely if you have broken down into regimental sized units. But, esp with the Germans, if you commit reserves in an area of high interdiction, they will be disrupted etc by the the time they fight and may well be useless afterwards
k) indirect attacks work, this is harder in WiTW (less units) but if you really want hex #a and you fear strong reserves, hit hex #b with a force strong enough to worry the enemy and pull in his reserves there (think of the interaction between Goodwood and Cobra). You need to make your secondary attack feasible or the combat routine will not trigger reserves (and of course make sure your own reserves don't go off and join in - flip reserve status on (if attacking) when you want it. Interdiction is your friend in this respect in WiTW.
l) intelligence matters, esp in WiTW on initial contact a unit may not be telling the truth with its cv, if you can wait a turn to see what is there before you commit, if you can't wait, then assume its far more powerful than is being indicated
m) never attack beyond the corps command range, so for landings make sure your corps are offshore. Equally its better to avoid those niggly 10% malus for mixing corps etc, again with the allies in particular there is no reason not to juggle corps to avoid problems in this regard

In effect, the displayed cv is very useful but its a guide not the answer. There are things you can do to make actual performance better or worse at the point of combat and a lot you can do to set things up in your favour.

The best learning tool is the advice in WiTE, save your game, set up an attack (this is assuming you are playing the AI as this means repeating the combat), set the resolution relatively low (say 4 or 5) and watch what fires when, the interaction of air/artillery on the combat. Do it again with different SU assignments. Do it again (be aware there is a large random element at play). Come to a feeling when a notional 1-1 attack may well succeed say 80% of the time (I've learnt how to manage this in WiTE), equally when does a notional 2-1 fail?

There is no harm to doing a turn or so left hand vs right hand so that you can adjust the force mix on both sides - any of the France 1944 scenarios are good for this.

Thanks Loki! Thats a great list of advice [:)]

PS. Started reading your WitE AAR last night. Fantastic work. [&o] Makes me want to install WITE again... [:D]
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JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 9. September 1943[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Two crashes while doing the turn...both while tabbed out. Need to remember to start Fraps BEFORE I load the game.... [:(]

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Europe
------------------------

Not the best of turn over Europe. Heavy losses for not much damage. At least the B17G is online. I upgrade 6 groups straight away. Thinking most of the 8th will be unavailable I look for smaller targets. U-boats. Sadly Pelton is still there in force.... [:(]

At least I took out the 20 U-boat factories at Bremen. Bremerhaven was a complete waste of bombers though. Not a single hit. Ouch.

Trying one more time at using the BC at night....this time I have 6 different recon AD up over the city instead of the usual 1. Despite that results are a complete waste of time. At least the odd night attack will keep Pelton from setting all his NFs to day.



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JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

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Mediterranean
------------------------

Very little happening here. I´m still waiting for air bases to expand on Sicily. Rails are all repaired now so the engineers should get going at the ports and bases next turn.

The entire AF rests and fly only recon. Supply still hasn´t caught up with the rise in demand after I started transferring most of Tacticals bombers.

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marion61
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by marion61 »

I use a program called ScreenPresso. It's freeware and works quite well with WitW, and it has editing tools also. I've never had a crash because of it.
JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I use a program called ScreenPresso. It's freeware and works quite well with WitW, and it has editing tools also. I've never had a crash because of it.

Thanks. I´ll try it instead of Fraps!
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Baelfiin
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by Baelfiin »

Meklore will that do video like fraps?
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
marion61
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by marion61 »

I don't think so. It's just for screen captures. There's a version that you pay for, it may have video with it.
JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 10. September 1943[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

No crashes this time. Still using Fraps but I remembered to fire it up before loading the turn this time.

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Europe
------------------------

Reasonable turn. Bomber command had its best night ever for me. Perhaps I was ruling it out to soon. Or it was just a mad fluke...[X(]

The 8th pummel eastern Ruhr with reasonable losses. My P38/P51 losses are really starting to worry me though... [:(] I could possibly free up 150 P38s by converting P38s in the Med to P47s. But that would severely limit Strategics range.

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Mediterranean
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3 ID from 5th US Army lands on Sardinia using 2 Amphibs. Due to earlier mistakes on my part this comes in about 6 turns later then I had planned for.

Strategic Air try to close the AFs on Sardinia but results are underwhelming. Most are not heavily damaged. Part of II Corps is ready to reinforce if needed. Not sure how much Pelton will try an mess with the landings. Its not the optimal place for him to do so. But if he does I might push my main landing ahead of schedule while he focuses on Sardinia.

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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 12. September 1943[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________


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Europe
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So-so week. Bomber Command is back to its usual self. [:D] The 8th again take a pounding but knock out 35 U-boat factories at Hamburg. U-boat VP at -4.

Reinforcements for D-day are starting to come through. 101st arrived this turn.

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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

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9th Air Force
------------------------

They are busy knocking out all the small Railyards and Ports in France. Not sure if this will make any difference but I´m barely losing any planes so I might as well.

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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

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Mediterranean
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Most of the airfields on Sardinia are firmly closed now. No counter attack materializes. II Corp land and take up defensive positions. Allied Recon did not fly as expected so I feel a bit blind.

So far everything is going to plan.

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JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 13. September 1943[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________


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Europe
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Th 8th manage a relatively safe hit on Danzig. Bomber Command manages another night bombing fiasco. [8|] Weather is turning for the worse with rain coming in. U-boat VPs are again at -5 despite the hit at Hamburg last week. Sucks not being able to move the 8th off the U-boats for even a single turn. [:(]

Hopefully things will look better with V-weapons as many are located within the reach of 9th AF giving the 8th more freedom.

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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by gmsitton »

All those ports you bomb, you just gotta fix later

Are you flying Bomber Command at 14k Ft on purpose?
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: gmsitton

All those ports you bomb, you just gotta fix later

Are you flying Bomber Command at 14k Ft on purpose?

This turn yes. I try to change altitude every turn. 14k is too low though as can from the damage taken.

Learning by doing I guess. [:D]
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »


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The Med
------------------------

Progress is fast here with the armor from II Corps. No sign that Pelton intends to intervene. Only two level 1 airfields still in Axis hands.

Recon has found multiple defensive lines across Italy.

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JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Airwar over Germany[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

I´m looking at the possibility of using the 8th for deep strikes into Germany. Right now there are two major concentrations of German fighters. First around the Ruhr and a second around Hamburg.

If I can start hitting deep into Germany it might force Pelton to spread out his defenses and send Fighters back into central Germany.

Playing around a bit with paint.net. Great prog. [:)]

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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by Baelfiin »

Joc check out some of the plugins by pyrochild. There are some cool effects that you can add.

You are doing much better than me with VP's it looks like
"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.
JocMeister
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Joc check out some of the plugins by pyrochild. There are some cool effects that you can add.

You are doing much better than me with VP's it looks like

Thanks for the tip! I´ll check it out. Very happy with paint.net so far. [:)]

-50VPs and dropping with a couple each turn right now. Pretty certain it will continue to drop for the rest of the game. [:D]
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RE: Spanking of the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs Pelton(Axis)

Post by marion61 »

What might appear to be a gap there in Amsterdam, is probably the worst spot to pick. Interception between those two concentrations would probably hurt.
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