Newbs in the East: Psych0 (Axis) vs Drakken (Sov) - SOVIET RETURNED - NO AXIS

[WingedIncubus]

T5 - SITREP - July 17th, 1941

Well, it seems Psych0 is dedicated to win the war with his Panzergruppe only. He keeps pushing while his Infantry is far behind. Because of this, I believing thinning out most of my frontline that face where his lagging Infantry is in order to leave a screen, and instead mass them where the Panzers are expected to push.

Blue arrows is where I evaluate he will direct his Panzer Group next turn.

Red arrows is what I am thinking of planning, while red lines is where I am thinking of placing my units.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Yes, I figure that it is a matter of experience. Hence why I ask.

I think I'm not nearly experienced enough to give any solid advice, thus my enigmatic answer

I just mean that there is no single advice that would cover all defenses, mostly you have to improvise with what you have especially on the Soviets in the summer '41.

One solid advice for Moscow defense is that no matter the cost, I would prepare at least some kind of defense ring around Moscow somewhere in 20-50 mile radius (Nara-Mozhaysk-Lama for example). Any defense set up at Vyazma-Rzhev is likely to collapse, so you will eventually need forts near Moscow.

For the defense line in July '41, I'd just try to make sure that minimum amount of units would get surrounded or zoc-locked. Stacking units high is a risk since the germans can just go around and at minimum zoc-lock the strong stack. Making a carpet defense has a risk if there's lot of panzers around, with the amount of MPs they have at use, they can just use hasty attacks to create a large pocket. Reserve activations are really crucial to bog down breakthroughs as someone mentioned earlier!

So basically it's juggling between options based on what knowledge you have (your opponents style, amount of troops present on both sides, terrain, weather on next turn, your own plan where the future defense line will be, etc.).

I really wish I had the time to make comprehensive tests on defending with different formations under different conditions... but I don't, so I'll just stick to vague answers

[bigbaba]

your Pskov defense crumbled damnd fast. i did defend Pskov just like hard luck mentioned it in his excellent posting with a whole army and zukov as army commander and am able to hold it even in turn 5. i recommend that you read this thread "the defense of Moscow begins at Pskov".

Otherwise, you are doing well for a 2nd game as Russian.

[WingedIncubus]

T5 - July 17th, 1941 - Northern Sector

Every able-bodied Soviet troops in the Karelian istmus are ordered to retreat South, some covering the No Attack Line while the remaining go South to assist in the defense of the Novgorod line. Meanwhile, I build as many Fortified Regions in and South of Leningrad to assist in building forts whenever possible.

Everything in Green on the pic, as close as the second line, is in Reserve Mode. My take is that his Panzers will have a lot more trouble going through swamps and wooden terrain, making them more vulnerable to be grinded down. Not a step back, we will hold the line at all cost!




Meanwhile, 52nd Rifle Corps holds to flank at Staraya Russia, hoping to exploit that Mechanized do bad in wooden terrain AND across rivers.

[WingedIncubus]

T5 - July 17th, 1941 - Central Sector

Defending Moscow is priority number 1! All available STAVKA reserves are redirected to the Centre.

38th Army is created and assigned to the Reserve Front, behind the Volga River down to Rhzev to build a fallback line in case Psych0 go for my right-flank. However, all points towards a stab right at the centre. I resupply Smolensk and the surrounded Rifle divisions, hoping that it will impede some of its troops - especially in Smolensk with its 41 Defence CV.

I move all my northern line a hex back, simply because the Germans are in some hexes passed the Dnepr, especially in the North. So holding the Dnepr becomes hopeless, so I redeploy slightly back to leave him a bit less place to maneuver before reaching the Volga. I also want to drag the panzers into the light woods, which are worse terrain for them, while avoiding any knick in my line that he can exploit.

I also build Fortified Regions in and around Moscow, leaving STAVKA-assigned Rifle Divisions in each to begin building forts.






Also, if I switch my Soft Factor to Fuel, his Panzer and Motorized Divions lose all their bars on the left side. Would that mean that he is finally out of fuel supply???

[WingedIncubus]

T5 - July 17th, 1941 - Southern Sector

Redeployment in front of Dnepropetrovsk is now complete. My recon confirms that Psych0 has redeployed half his Panzer Group to surround the holdout in Kiev. I air supplied Kiev as much as possible to hope that they last a turn or two and resist.

Eith half his Panzer Group remaining and the vast core of his Infantry Division lagging way behind, would psych0 will throw his 6 panzer and motorized divisions and brigades forward without any support? Being on the move all the time... he must start to feel the effect of friction and longer supply lines... no? [&:]




I also start preparing the defenses in the bottleneck in Crimea. I will not do the same mistake like when I abandoned Odessa and left it defenseless. I will make Sevastopol a holdout that will, hopefully, pin some of his Infantry units away from the Donbass.

[WingedIncubus]

T5 - July 17th, 1941 - Evacuation and other considerations

Gomel emptied of all 2 HI and 2 Armaments, sent to Magnitogorsk

Krementchug emptied of all 2 HI and 2 Armaments, sent to Chkalov

Dnepropetrovsk is removed 3 Armament points, sent to Sverdlosk

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

your Pskov defense crumbled damnd fast. i did defend Pskov just like hard luck mentioned it in his excellent posting with a whole army and zukov as army commander and am able to hold it even in turn 5. i recommend that you read this thread "the defense of Moscow begins at Pskov".

Otherwise, you are doing well for a 2nd game as Russian.

Hardluckagain has a very well thought out gambit. It is a gambit in the true sense of the word. It appears given a standard opening that the Soviets can defend one front very well along a limited front. The defense depends on locating the best Soviet units in terms of morale and ability to dig, and place these units in strategic positions. Hardluckagain has identified Pskov as a center for this gambit.

It is a gambit -- as this defense gives up the ability to defend elsewhere. By concentration units -- the rest of Russia becomes vulnerable. If the Germans discover this defense early .. it is only a matter of focusing on another front. An innovative Southern opening could be a Soviet disaster should the Soviets simply depend on a Leningrad first strategy.

What Drakken now is most vulnerable right now in my opinion is a right hook.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

your Pskov defense crumbled damnd fast. i did defend Pskov just like hard luck mentioned it in his excellent posting with a whole army and zukov as army commander and am able to hold it even in turn 5. i recommend that you read this thread "the defense of Moscow begins at Pskov".

Otherwise, you are doing well for a 2nd game as Russian.

Hardluckagain has a very well thought out gambit. It is a gambit in the true sense of the word. It appears given a standard opening that the Soviets can defend one front very well along a limited front. The defense depends on locating the best Soviet units in terms of morale and ability to dig, and place these units in strategic positions. Hardluckagain has identified Pskov as a center for this gambit.

It is a gambit -- as this defense gives up the ability to defend elsewhere. By concentration units -- the rest of Russia becomes vulnerable. If the Germans discover this defense early .. it is only a matter of focusing on another front. An innovative Southern opening could be a Soviet disaster should the Soviets simply depend on a Leningrad first strategy.

What Drakken now is most vulnerable right now in my opinion is a right hook.

If you check where the Germans are in my games compared to other games you will find that the lines around turn 15ish+ are going to be pretty close to what all the other player games out there are. The BIG difference is going to be Leningrad area still being held onto. As such you will have a VERY good cadre of veteran division on the Russian side along with a harden fighter Air force with Experience in the high 70's. (I'm 100% convinced the Soviets have to attack to gain experience/morale)

As for being a gambit. It could be for sure for a great many players playing the strat. Experience plays a huge role in understanding all the moving parts. Having a very high degree of German experience is even better to play the Soviet side effectively. As for defending elsewhere you are trading space to the Germans that they would normally get anyway. Thus as a Russian I just give them the land but spare myself grief by not including the units they would normally surround in the process. Every unit saved by the Russians in the first 14 turns of the games is going to make it just that much harder for the Germans.

I have to disagree that an "innovative" southern opening can be a disaster with this strat (at least on how I do it). I have played the Germans so many times and know the limitations of such a strat. The supply chain in the south is just too great to be 100% effective. Maybe if the "innovative" strat included armor from the center and you daisy chained HQ buildups every turn. But then again that would make the Russian defense even easier in the North and Center and that was the goal the whole time. A good Russian player will know which factories they can lose and which to get out in prioritized order. Then the Russian can defend or allow certain units to be sacrificed to slow the Germans. It is that experience that will make the difference. As Michael T has said in the past that you have to have a balanced approach as the Germans.

Again this strat isnt full proof. It can be beaten. You just need to understand what needs to be done.

[WingedIncubus]

T6 - SITREP - July 24th, 1941

After taking a good look on my T6, I decided to resign and concede defeat. Perhaps this game is not for me, there is just no fun, no hope, and no chance for the Soviets in summer 1941.

Leningrad and Vyasma is blown away - and Moscow soon to fall in August with nothing I can do except throw away counters to be weeded through again. Plus, Psych0 gets to just wiz through a carpet line of 5, (yes 5!) counters in swamps in woods in front of Leningrad. No need for infantry support, no need to stop and refuel, no need to wait for reinforcements because AFVs break down and need maintenance.

Call me a quitter, but where's the fun here. I don't believe in fighting lost causes. and where's the interest when this one is lost. It's sad because playing Soviets in WITE is the one challenge I want to beat. But most beginner to intermediate Soviet players want to feel that even soundly beaten, their choices do have an impact on the other player. Right now, the first 8 turns are absolute torment.

I will reconsider when the new patch comes over that fixes the Fortified Regions.

[SparkleyTits]

I wish I played as well as you did on my first Soviet game good job Drakken

Well done and don't be so hard on yourself you have done very well just keep at it and try not to get disheartend.
Play a few games with the mindset of hard lessons to learn instead of challenges to overcome and I imagine with how you have done here you will be making it past the blizzards and beyond in no time bud

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I wish I played as well as you did on my first Soviet game good job Drakken

Well done and don't be so hard on yourself you have done very well just keep at it and try not to get disheartend.
Play a few games with the mindset of hard lessons to learn instead of challenges to overcome and I imagine with how you have done here you will be making it past the blizzards and beyond in no time bud

Truth be told, save being a glutton for punishment I do not know how budding Soviet players cannot get dishartened in summer 1941. Hell, I am an experienced wargamer and I got dishartened really fast, each time I opened each of my turn and saw that my carefully laden counters did nothing. Imagine how many players have tried to play the Soviet, got destroyed, and just shelved the game.

Soviets just have nothing to compensate for the experience of being not up to par, so it is just not fun. At least in DC:B, you get to make strategic choices that count in the end. Here, nothing the Soviet player chooses has any tangible, short-term impact - except guiding the Axis on where to pounce better. Counter-offensives would just net even more losses for next to nothing on the German side in return.

On my part, I do not see competence in what I have done. If I had forced psych0 to pause even one turn to reshuffle and refit, that would have been basic competence. Reaching August and September 1941 with lines reasonably ressembling real-life is competence. Losing Moscow and Leningrad is to me a lost game, period - and losing it even before Fall comes, like it was soon to happen, when psych0 is not even using HQBU is just being easy pickings.

[SparkleyTits]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I wish I played as well as you did on my first Soviet game good job Drakken

Well done and don't be so hard on yourself you have done very well just keep at it and try not to get disheartend.
Play a few games with the mindset of hard lessons to learn instead of challenges to overcome and I imagine with how you have done here you will be making it past the blizzards and beyond in no time bud

Truth be told, save being a glutton for punishment I do not know how budding Soviet players cannot get dishartened in summer 1941. Hell, I am an experienced wargamer and I got dishartened really fast, each time I opened each of my turn and saw that my carefully laden counters did nothing. Imagine how many players have tried to play the Soviet, got destroyed, and just shelved the game.

Soviets just have nothing to compensate for the experience of being not up to par, so it is just not fun. At least in DC:B, you get to make strategic choices that count in the end. Here, nothing the Soviet player chooses has any tangible, short-term impact - except guiding the Axis on where to pounce better. Counter-offensives would just net even more losses for next to nothing on the German side in return.

On my part, I do not see competence in what I have done. If I had forced psych0 to pause even one turn to reshuffle and refit, that would have been basic competence. Reaching August and September 1941 with lines reasonably ressembling real-life is competence. Losing Moscow and Leningrad is to me a lost game, period - and losing it even before Fall comes, like it was soon to happen, when psych0 is not even using HQBU is just being easy pickings.

I cannot speak for others but I really enjoy Soviets and I am yet to even win a game although yes I agree my first game (Soviets) was also very disheartening I didn't play again for 4 months or so.

I am terribly inexperienced tbh mate so my advice would be negligible at best but for example in my first game I had to learn the hard way on why defence in depth is needed..... You are already far past that level of inexperience and idiocy so I honestly imagine if you just played a few games with the intention to learn the flow of the game and learn what you can from the Soviets instead of to win you would enjoy them more and be able to survive before you knew it

Now thanks to a heavy helping of everyone on this forum, me having the mindset of a accepted mistake filled sponge and a over a month of intensive playing in my current game I still hold Pskov, Kharkov and Moscow at turn 9 with losses of 1.1 mil men. It isn't as good as it sounds on paper as I am definitely struggling to contain a death spiral everywhere but I think it is impossible not to until you become skilled & experienced

Honestly man your first game is leaps and bounds beyond the utter disaster mine was.
If you can keep at it then and accept that losses are a normality I imagine you will be holding beyond that blissful turn 18 & onwards in no time

[RKhan]

One thing I will say for the game, it does recreate the feeling of chaos and desperation the Soviet side felt in the summer of '41. The Germans side counted on this shock to cause a capitulation. After all, even conquering everything up to Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov only comprises a portion of the country and the Germans had no credible plan to conquer the whole thing, or for what would happen if the Soviets just refused to give up.

I do hope you will play again, perhaps as German? It will instruct your Soviet defence to no end.

RKhan

[Stelteck]

Your mistake was to expect an historical results. It is very very hard to achieve.

But if you acknowledge from start that the game will stabilized around the Volga, the game is indeed very fun and interesting.

You are not in so bad position for a start. The most important is to keep fighting while avoiding too much looses.

[Nix77]

Playing the Soviet side is all about learning from your mistakes and adapting to the pace of the game and that of your opponent's. In my first MP Soviet game, I thought I was having a nice and easy August in the southern Dnepr bend when whoosh suddenly I miscalculated the distance my opponent's panzers could cover and my whole Southern front was in chaos and despair.

You really can't expect to do everything right in your first game, and not doing anything 100% right is also perfectly ok. The game is so complex that you just can't handle all the mechanics and twists on the first go, you just need to brute force through several painful games to get hang of it.

I'd say that the best of games really make you suffer, and when you conquer that suffering at some point, the enjoyment you get feels like a true victory.

You also need to give credit to Psych0, he executed the German advance in a deadly manner. You shouldn't be disheartened when losing to a good opponent, just take it as a lesson learned!

[Telemecus]

I have to agree with the comments above. It is also worth saying that whatever Psch0's experience as a player, his ability is very good. I think even in this game you can see you took dramatic strides forward.

The 1941 scenario is a horrific one for the Soviets, and it needs a special kind of stoicism to know whatever happens then it will be all the other way afterwards. There is one AAR here where the Axis got to the Urals, and still lost the game by losing Berlin on time.

Rather than giving up entirely on Soviets in WitE 1.0 why not try a later scenario - 43-45 say?

[timmyab]

I don't think your position is as bad as you think, certainly not serious enough to resign. Playing the Soviets in 41 is quite the technical challenge these days, but it's a purely defensive one (local counterattacks aside) until the blizzard. You have to survive through to December before you get to dish some out.

I understand that the breakthrough in the North has crushed your morale, but overcoming reverses is one of the most important qualities a general can have and something that can be learned like other aspects of the craft.
There was also a serious technical flaw in your Leningrad defense. The Volchov river should have been defended, strongly East of Novgorod and at minimum a unit in the swamp two hexes further North.
You have a stroke of fortune though because he has failed to ZOC your Northern rail line which means Northern and Northwestern fronts are not in immediate danger and can be repositioned to block 4th pz group's drive on lake Ladoga.
The aim now should be to tie up 4th pz group for as long as possible. I would place one front between Leningrad and the Volkhov with the strongest units defending North of the Neva and the other front East of the Volkhov . By the way the only fortified zone you need to build in 41 is the hex to the East of Pavlovo. Get this hex to fort 3 as a priority.

The center looks ok. The breakthrough towards Vyasma isn't serious. Western front is out of position though. It needs to be repositioned North and South of Vyasma.

The South looks fine. You should be able to frustrate him behind the Dnieper for a turn or two yet before retreating towards the Donets.

Overall I would give Psycho a slight advantage in this position. Certainly not decisive.

[Psych0]

I also think Drakken is very hard on himself. A good quality in my book for purposes of getting better in this game. I am too chickenshit to play Soviets on my own, just too daunting. That said, of course I respect and accept his surrender.

It's been a tough slog from where I'm sitting. Drakken stopped the bleeding with no new pockets of more than a couple units. That would have made for a tough winter even if L&M both would have falling. I think losing Leningrad or Moscow is basically a given as the game is currently, even without HQBU. One might well be possible to save. I'll update my NO HQ BU AAR tonight with progress/result of a couple of other games too.

[Psych0]

Another thing that Drakken did well is force me in certain directions. Maybe not exactly the direction he intended me to go, hence his surprise, I don't know. But I was basically reduced to operational pushing. So he built pretty big 'rocks' and in North I went around mostly, i.e. 'paper'. In Center I tried to go through but not very effectively at all, i.e. 'blunted scissors'. In the South I have no real options until the infantry arrives next turn. Even then the supply situation (and wothout HQ BU) in the South doesn't allow any 'paper' envelopments and the Dnepr would have frustrated any 'scissors' attacks...