2x3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

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Neogodhobo
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Neogodhobo »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The decisions that will have to be made really might not be so focused on secret plans .. I might propose they are mainly focused on where AP's are spent (HQBU's vs OOB ), some allocation of OKH resources , re-purposing of units between fronts .. think of all the big decisions and allocation of resources you make as a single player .. now think 3 players vying for AP's as an example. Fix Gudarin's OOB? Or save AP's so Armor can cut off PSKOV ...

There are subtle compromises in objectives and corrdination between fronts .. but I would contend my previous statement is the big job of the supreme commander for OKH ..


Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.
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thedoctorking
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by thedoctorking »

ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo
ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The decisions that will have to be made really might not be so focused on secret plans .. I might propose they are mainly focused on where AP's are spent (HQBU's vs OOB ), some allocation of OKH resources , re-purposing of units between fronts .. think of all the big decisions and allocation of resources you make as a single player .. now think 3 players vying for AP's as an example. Fix Gudarin's OOB? Or save AP's so Armor can cut off PSKOV ...

There are subtle compromises in objectives and corrdination between fronts .. but I would contend my previous statement is the big job of the supreme commander for OKH ..


Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.
Presumably, we'll have separate forums for each side? Any sort of intelligence roll or something like that could just allow you to look at one or more posts from the other forum. Have to do it on the honor system, though.
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Telemecus
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Telemecus »

I have had a very experienced Soviet player, who has not posted so far on this thread but has many AARs, PM me saying they are interested. But they just cannot commit until mid-October because of a big work requirement. But they said we should get back to them if we can use them. The other team game I think was only on turn 3 after a month. So a possibility is

Axis Supreme Commander - Telemecus
Soviet Supreme Commander - Neogodhobo (with all team mates helping) until mid october, then mid-october we could ask for the experienced player to take over.

Neogodhobo would be guaranteed another place on the team - I think should also be at least deputy Supreme Commander as well so there would be continuity.

Also if there is an issue of balance:- The Supreme Commander cannot do ground missions, but can be involved in other combat roles like air bombing missions. But I could make a self-denying ordinance that I will not involve myself in any combat roles until/at least an experienced player takes on the other Supreme role.

Neogodhobo - I am most worried whether this is being unfair to you. Having volunteered to say you could take on the Supreme role this would be saying yes then no. So it could feel like being treated like a football when you are the hero making the sacrifice to help all. Is there a better way this could be done for you?

Others - do you feel this would make the game fair?

I have not caught up with the posts above, I am not ignoring them but still have to read them.

Otherwise if this is good we could start.
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Crackaces
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo
ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The decisions that will have to be made really might not be so focused on secret plans .. I might propose they are mainly focused on where AP's are spent (HQBU's vs OOB ), some allocation of OKH resources , re-purposing of units between fronts .. think of all the big decisions and allocation of resources you make as a single player .. now think 3 players vying for AP's as an example. Fix Gudarin's OOB? Or save AP's so Armor can cut off PSKOV ...

There are subtle compromises in objectives and corrdination between fronts .. but I would contend my previous statement is the big job of the supreme commander for OKH ..


Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.

I'm saying .. the supreme commander might be more of a role hearding cats ;)
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo
Im not sure changing Supreme commander after the game start is a good idea.

I would have thought that a while ago - but I would say now it is OK.

The reality is that many games of WitE stop because an opponent disappears from contact. This can be for valid real life reasons. But I hope we have a set up here that can carry on even when some players cannot. So it would mean other team members taking over anothers go when they cannot, or replacing players who drop out. In the other team game I keep a checklist of everything I intend to do, and all my plans etc., in a team dropbox so all my team mates can see as much or as little as they like. So a good team should be transparent and know what others are doing - hopefully they can take over from me if something happens to me. So unlike a solo game it is a good idea to be more fluid and welcome changes.

That said continuity does help. But there is the possibility that whatever titles different players take, some of the roles that they do can continue even if the team is reshuffled.

I think we are torn between the heart and the head. On one side getting it set up right from the start can save a lot of tears. On the other hand keen wargamers want to rush in and are frustrated not to start. I guess on this forum we'll come to a consensus when we think is a good time to start.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo
ORIGINAL: Crackaces
I might propose they are mainly focused on where AP's are spent (HQBU's vs OOB ), some allocation of OKH resources , re-purposing of units between fronts .. think of all the big decisions and allocation of resources you make as a single player .. now think 3 players vying for AP's as an example. Fix Gudarin's OOB? Or save AP's so Armor can cut off PSKOV ...

There are subtle compromises in objectives and corrdination between fronts .. but I would contend my previous statement is the big job of the supreme commander for OKH ..


Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.

I'm saying .. the supreme commander might be more of a role hearding cats ;)

I suppose it is worth distinguishing what a Supreme Commander has to do, with what it would be good for them to do. The absolute requirement for the game is that the Supreme Commander HAS to allocate things like points, units etc to the others, and their responsibilities. But someone who does that job well might start doing something else - and might find what they have to do a very small part of the game for them.

Personally that is where I think the interest comes from for the role - and the thing I would love to compare notes on with other Supreme Commanders whether or not I am one in this game. Some approaches are
i) Make a strategic analysis of your situation and that of your opponent, develop a grand strategy over multiple turns, and let that lead on to who gets what. Is this Neogodhobo's idea?
ii) Spend a lot of time with other players getting their plans and ideas, seeing where they cannot all be done, and man managing the way to get as much as possible for all. Perhaps what Crackaces is suggesting?

I think there is a lot more to be said on this and it will be a hot topic for the game. Perhaps a "Dummy's guide to how to be a Supreme Commander" can be written afterwards?
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Crackaces
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: Crackaces
ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo



Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.

I'm saying .. the supreme commander might be more of a role hearding cats ;)

I suppose it is worth distinguishing what a Supreme Commander has to do, with what it would be good for them to do. The absolute requirement for the game is that the Supreme Commander HAS to allocate things like points, units etc to the others, and their responsibilities. But someone who does that job well might start doing something else - and might find what they have to do a very small part of the game for them.

Personally that is where I think the interest comes from for the role - and the thing I would love to compare notes on with other Supreme Commanders whether or not I am one in this game. Some approaches are
i) Make a strategic analysis of your situation and that of your opponent, develop a grand strategy over multiple turns, and let that lead on to who gets what. Is this Neogodhobo's idea?
ii) Spend a lot of time with other players getting their plans and ideas, seeing where they cannot all be done, and man managing the way to get as much as possible for all. Perhaps what Crackaces is suggesting?

I think there is a lot more to be said on this and it will be a hot topic for the game. Perhaps a "Dummy's guide to how to be a Supreme Commander" can be written afterwards?

The concept of putting together the plans of the individual ground commanders spiced with a vision of the five stages of the game as I highlighted above. If the idea is "I" then the supreme commander simply needs obedient ground commanders .. if "ii" then the supreme commander needs expertise within that front. Given the number of AAR's .. it is easier for one to grasp a small part well than the whole salami ..
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thedoctorking
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by thedoctorking »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: Crackaces
ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo



Im not sure I understand what you are saying because I dont quite see the relation with what I was saying.. ?

EDIT : Are you saying, that the supreme commander do not come up with operations to execute to win the war ?

I would certainly come up with operations that have been thought of, prepared, reviewed by ground commanders (according to their area of operation ) and then put in action. ALONG with all the other decisions that has to be made. You cant win a war without a proper plan.

I'm saying .. the supreme commander might be more of a role hearding cats ;)

I suppose it is worth distinguishing what a Supreme Commander has to do, with what it would be good for them to do. The absolute requirement for the game is that the Supreme Commander HAS to allocate things like points, units etc to the others, and their responsibilities. But someone who does that job well might start doing something else - and might find what they have to do a very small part of the game for them.

Personally that is where I think the interest comes from for the role - and the thing I would love to compare notes on with other Supreme Commanders whether or not I am one in this game. Some approaches are
i) Make a strategic analysis of your situation and that of your opponent, develop a grand strategy over multiple turns, and let that lead on to who gets what. Is this Neogodhobo's idea?
ii) Spend a lot of time with other players getting their plans and ideas, seeing where they cannot all be done, and man managing the way to get as much as possible for all. Perhaps what Crackaces is suggesting?

I think there is a lot more to be said on this and it will be a hot topic for the game. Perhaps a "Dummy's guide to how to be a Supreme Commander" can be written afterwards?
The Supreme Commander should also be responsible for making moves for any of his subordinates who hasn't turned in their moves by the deadline. There should also be a rank hierarchy among the lower commanders so someone can take over the Generalissimo's job if he doesn't turn in his orders by the designated time. And everybody should have a regularly updated strategic goals statement on their forum so that people taking over their job can do something like they would have done. The Supreme commander would be responsible for looking at all his subordinates' plans and editing or commenting on them to reflect his own priorities.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
The Supreme Commander should also be responsible for making moves for any of his subordinates who hasn't turned in their moves by the deadline.
The rules do not allow the Supreme Commander to move/combat ground units in contact with the enemy - but the sentiment of the point is right. The team manager (who could be the Supreme Commander) has to arrange for another team player to take another player's go when they cannot.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by KenchiSulla »

All good... As AGS commander it makes sense that I am deputy supreme commander... [:D]
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by SparkleyTits »

Neogodhobo have you played any games in multiplayer yet buddy?
I mean absolutely no disrespect if I am misunderstanding but it seems that although your ideas are full of character, vhim and vigour which is fantastic they might be outside of what the Russians actually need to survive for the first 18 turns without a collapse

As Crackaces mentioned the game has phases and he was only trying to help us understand the limitations of the game and how our ideas play into that.
There is a certain flow to the game that will happen with each and every time it's played the flow is determined by the mechanics and limitations of the game itself
For Russia the commander needs a simple understanding on how to manipulate manpower, TOE, AP, exp, morale, Rail, industry, and all of the mechanics in a similar manner he will need to understand the Axis supply and how to hamper it and work around it
Simply put for the first 18 turns Russia is all about manipulating the mechanics to staunch an immiment death there simply will be no opportunity for strategies beyond "Move back behind that river" "Try to rescue that mountain division" etc
If the supreme commander doesn't have a simple understanding of the actual mechanics I fear it would only be a very quick and unfun death for the motherland

However I completely agree with Telemecus consesus is our best option to keep everybody as happy as possible


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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Neogodhobo »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I suppose it is worth distinguishing what a Supreme Commander has to do, with what it would be good for them to do. The absolute requirement for the game is that the Supreme Commander HAS to allocate things like points, units etc to the others, and their responsibilities. But someone who does that job well might start doing something else - and might find what they have to do a very small part of the game for them.

Personally that is where I think the interest comes from for the role - and the thing I would love to compare notes on with other Supreme Commanders whether or not I am one in this game. Some approaches are
i) Make a strategic analysis of your situation and that of your opponent, develop a grand strategy over multiple turns, and let that lead on to who gets what. Is this Neogodhobo's idea?
ii) Spend a lot of time with other players getting their plans and ideas, seeing where they cannot all be done, and man managing the way to get as much as possible for all. Perhaps what Crackaces is suggesting?

I think there is a lot more to be said on this and it will be a hot topic for the game. Perhaps a "Dummy's guide to how to be a Supreme Commander" can be written afterwards?

I guess I was expecting something else from a Supreme Commander.

Here is how I was planning to play the role and my idea about how it should be done :

My idea of what the Supreme commander do :

Supreme commander would basically, role-play a supreme commander, as it historically was during WW2. ( as much as the game allows ) So :

A) Makes every important decisions ( such as allocating admin points for exemple )
B) Prepare offensive/defensive operations.
C) Plan meetings with each ground commanders to talk about strategies. ( aka : I made this operation, review your sector, tell me if you think its possible for you to achieve these goals in the time ask, what do you think a good alternative would be, what do you feel your opponent's weakness/aptitude are ? How can you counter/take advantage of those, etc etc )

D) Asset situation on all fronts, intelligence, revise operations and plan according to opponents weakness/aptitude.

The way I was planning to play it :

Basically, I was planning to start making clear objective to capture/hold. Devise plans according to those. Write it all down, separate each section of the plan and give the section of the plan with the area of operation of each ground commanders to them.

-Was going to note every detail possible ( Strength of operation ( numbers of men, AFV, airplanes, commanders in charge of the operation , etc )
-Was going to note every detail of the execution of that operation ( casualties, progress, battles, etc )
-Was going to put in paper the entire operation, ( how it went, final result, consequences, etc )
and put it in a file.
Keep all operations until the end of the game to later put to the public.

I also wanted to start some spy action, meaning that I would sometime make fake plans, along with real plans, available to the enemy so as to trick them. ( wich is why I came up with that post earlier about having a Top secret document thread )

I was also going to , obviously, allocate admin points and everything else that touches that subject. but to also hold meeting with ground commanders ( separately ) and discuss about the whole situation in general.

And well to supervise everything that is going around.
So, basically, this is my idea of what being the supreme commander was going to be about.

If it isnt, then Id just really prefer to be a ground commander. In wich case, we could just give me back my Army Group Center position. I would really prefer not having to giving command that I already have as I want to be with the men under my control until the end. Im in it for the long run, and I start being transferred around, I fear it would jeopardize my long run plan.

If I start doing something, and then someone else comes in and destroy everything I started doing, it will not only negatively affect everyone under my command ( wheter it be ground commanders, or army commanders ( AI )). but it will affect negatively the whole team as troops will have to be shifted around and strategies changed, and lose precious times, effort and energy.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Neogodhobo »

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Neogodhobo have you played any games in multiplayer yet buddy?
I mean absolutely no disrespect if I am misunderstanding but it seems that although your ideas are full of character, vhim and vigour which is fantastic they might be outside of what the Russians actually need to survive for the first 18 turns without a collapse

As Crackaces mentioned the game has phases and he was only trying to help us understand the limitations of the game and how our ideas play into that.
There is a certain flow to the game that will happen with each and every time it's played the flow is determined by the mechanics and limitations of the game itself
For Russia the commander needs a simple understanding on how to manipulate manpower, TOE, AP, exp, morale, Rail, industry, and all of the mechanics in a similar manner he will need to understand the Axis supply and how to hamper it and work around it
Simply put for the first 18 turns Russia is all about manipulating the mechanics to staunch an immiment death there simply will be no opportunity for strategies beyond "Move back behind that river" "Try to rescue that mountain division" etc
If the supreme commander doesn't have a simple understanding of the actual mechanics I fear it would only be a very quick and unfun death for the motherland

However I completely agree with Telemecus consesus is our best option to keep everybody as happy as possible



Iv played Multiplayer games yes. Im currently playing one right now. I previously said I had 50 hours into the game, but I forgot that I always play offline and that Steam doesnt take those hours into account. so I have 50 hours of online time basically. Im not sure how much I got offline, I do sometime spend 10 hours straight playing grand campaign against the soviet AI (+1 soviet bonus ). I usually play until January 1942. I leave time for the winter offensive and see how I do, and then I restart the game because usually, I miserably fail in the south. I usually make it to Moscow by late august with AGC.


It seems to me that the game is pretty realistic and so it would seem the way to play a supreme commander is basically common sense and understanding of world war 2 strategies. The Soviets kept retreating while launching countless (futile) counter-strokes until 1941 (and beyond even ) . So it would seem logical to me to have a mix of retreating, trying to hold key objectives ( such as Pskov and the velikaia river ) and trying to hinder the axis juggernauts as much as possible while trying to limit casualties as much as possible.

Doesn't seem really hard to me. As for game mechanics I would get help from players around, such as, moving industries, because I have never played the soviet beyond fall 1941 so Im not too familiar with it )

Lets not forget that, personally, I didnt even want to be supreme commander. But no one offered and so I offered. What I said I wanted to be is Axis Ground Commander, North or Center.

If Telemescus's friend wants to be supreme commander. I personally have no problem waiting until mid-october, it would even be better for me. And it would let everyone be able to prepare.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by SparkleyTits »

Apologies Neogodhobo you are indeed right you offered when nobody else did I meant no offence I was simply trying to be be cautious for all our sakes

As Manstein would say you are a very energetic fellow and that is to be applauded my friend
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »


ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I previously said I had 50 hours into the game, but I forgot that I always play offline and that Steam doesnt take those hours into account. so I have 50 hours of online time basically.


I must be f'ing crazy, I have over 4500 hours logged on 2 accounts just for WitE :( And that is only since I started using steam to play the game. I really should spend more time with my wife.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by SparkleyTits »

I am just over 370 hours at the moment and I still feel like I am absolute inexperienced newborn
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Crackaces
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I previously said I had 50 hours into the game, but I forgot that I always play offline and that Steam doesnt take those hours into account. so I have 50 hours of online time basically.


I must be f'ing crazy, I have over 4500 hours logged on 2 accounts just for WitE :( And that is only since I started using steam to play the game. I really should spend more time with my wife.

Sillyflower suggested turning combat tracking up ... as the finial straw to a life of pizza and jolt cola ..:)
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by Neogodhobo »

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Apologies Neogodhobo you are indeed right you offered when nobody else did I meant no offence I was simply trying to be be cautious for all our sakes

As Manstein would say you are a very energetic fellow and that is to be applauded my friend

No worries.
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I previously said I had 50 hours into the game, but I forgot that I always play offline and that Steam doesnt take those hours into account. so I have 50 hours of online time basically.


I must be f'ing crazy, I have over 4500 hours logged on 2 accounts just for WitE :( And that is only since I started using steam to play the game. I really should spend more time with my wife.

Sillyflower suggested turning combat tracking up ... as the finial straw to a life of pizza and jolt cola ..:)


Ok I give up. 16 hours of work and my brain is fried. Turn combat tracking up?
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RE: 2by3+ Teams Axis&Soviet Wanted

Post by thedoctorking »

Somebody should be responsible for making sure everybody gets their moves in on time.
How does this work mechanically? Does each player in a multiplayer team game have to wait for another player on his team to send the save game file or can we put all our save game files together in some way? If the former, I can't see getting a turn done in a day unless we are really anal about getting our turn done at a specific time. My own life is a little too complex to guarantee that I could play each day at 1500 Pacific or something like that.
I could commit to once a day but that would leave us with six days per turn. Any solutions for this or are we going to be playing this game for approximately as long as the actual war took?
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