
TTG multi-player teaching game
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
Most of XXXXVI Panzer Corps, on loan from 2nd Panzer Group, was transferred to the control of 1st Panzer Group, filling up that Army HQ. The Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler division then swept through the Cherkassy-Kirovograd gap and drove all the way to the Gulf of Odessa, isolating almost all of Soviet Southern Front. Without the forces necessary to hold the pocket securely, though, the Axis southern commander settled for disrupting Soviet supply and chasing off a few HQ’s and airbases. Meanwhile 9th and 11th Armies moved up to the front while elements of 1st Panzer Group and 17th Army dove into the swamps to the north. Closing in on Odessa, 11th Army’s recon suggests that the Soviets have not left a powerful garrison in the city. Perhaps they’ve learned their lesson from the fate of the “hero city” of the north, Riga. In any case, it is now clear that the Soviets are withdrawing units from the south to reinforce the center and so they probably didn’t have anything to spare to fight for Odessa.


- Attachments
-
- AGSendtn4.jpg (940.14 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
Losses this turn were 162,449 Soviet to 18,290 German (302:63 in the air). Numbers deployed are 3,443,982 Soviet to 3,339,026 German (8,982:3,618 in the air). I would say the Soviets are doing well for this point in the conflict. Next turn’s fighting in the center will be critical.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
AGC commander Herr General SparkleyTits reports:
Turn 4 was mostly prepping for Littlebrother's reactions with 3 HQBU's of 11 divisions
If he stayed still then I would probably do 1/all of the arrows if I see nothing better to try and crack the egg by securing nice bridgeheads, save as much fuel as possible to enhance my breakthrough potential on turn 6 by creating better opportunities than smashing against Zhukovs wall
If he runs then I will just see what he leaves me with and go from there
Apart from that I diverted a darn good corp of infantry to try and ensure as quick an ending of Soviet defence as possible in the swamps
Not super happy about that but it was the only corp in the area and Huggles haul will be pure gold if we close it so will definitely be worth it if so
I am also moving my forming 2nd army to the incoming offensive area

Turn 4 was mostly prepping for Littlebrother's reactions with 3 HQBU's of 11 divisions
If he stayed still then I would probably do 1/all of the arrows if I see nothing better to try and crack the egg by securing nice bridgeheads, save as much fuel as possible to enhance my breakthrough potential on turn 6 by creating better opportunities than smashing against Zhukovs wall
If he runs then I will just see what he leaves me with and go from there
Apart from that I diverted a darn good corp of infantry to try and ensure as quick an ending of Soviet defence as possible in the swamps
Not super happy about that but it was the only corp in the area and Huggles haul will be pure gold if we close it so will definitely be worth it if so
I am also moving my forming 2nd army to the incoming offensive area

- Attachments
-
- AGCSTTurn_4.jpg (1.21 MiB) Viewed 897 times
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:47 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
Riga was very unfortunate, I was hoping to hold it for this turn again and then pull out. But it still slowed down almost an entire German army for 2 turns, so I think it was worth it.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
Yes, I was amazed that they didn't push up at least and find out what was there on turn 3.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
But I think another lesson is that you don't want to lose too many divisions. I had a habit as the Soviets of leaving a couple divisions in every city as I withdrew to stall the Axis advance. But recent versions of the game nerf Soviet manpower recruitment such that you really can't afford to give up too many of your starting units if you can avoid it. If you take historical losses in 1941, you will have dozens of nearly-empty divisions sitting around behind your lines in spring 1942. I am in a game right now against blubel in which I took just about the historical loss in terms of troops and territory (he did take Leningrad, but didn't get Stalino, and casualties were about right on). My army is crippled. I see now how the Soviets end up with the weak forces you find at the beginning of the 1942 campaign.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Axis turn 4
About the Riga attack: when you attack across a major river, a portion of your elements are automatically disrupted. Since most of the German units attacked across the river, that explains the large number of disruptions.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
TTG Neutral AAR
Soviet turn 4
Turn 4 saw the Soviets facing an anticipated major German offensive in the center. The northern front, on the other hand, was almost entirely quiescent other than the assault on Riga, detailed last turn. German 16th Army and half of Hoth’s 4th Panzer Group turned due east and supported the flanks of Army Group Center, while Manstein’s LVI Corps spread out in a very thin screen across northern Latvia.

Soviet turn 4
Turn 4 saw the Soviets facing an anticipated major German offensive in the center. The northern front, on the other hand, was almost entirely quiescent other than the assault on Riga, detailed last turn. German 16th Army and half of Hoth’s 4th Panzer Group turned due east and supported the flanks of Army Group Center, while Manstein’s LVI Corps spread out in a very thin screen across northern Latvia.

- Attachments
-
- Sovnorthbegintn4.jpg (790.68 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
The Soviet response to this situation was to work to strengthen their lines in front of 16th Army. They brought in Reserve Front to hold the line from Velikie Luki south and established a 3-deep defensive position. The front-line defenders are reasonably strong – no hex has a defensive CV less than 16 – but the rear lines don’t look too tough. There’s probably enough to slow down 16th Army and XXXI Panzer Corps and prevent a long breakthrough, but with careful management, the Germans could break this line. When combined with AGC’s anticipated breakthrough from the south, this could mean a major pocket next turn. Of note: Reserve Front’s Air Command consists of one air base, located far behind the lines. Those Reserve Front units will probably not get much defensive ground support if the Germans attack them next turn. It probably would have been better to assign an air base or two from NW or Northern fronts and then send one Reserve air base up close behind the line as a staging base.
The three divisions that were forced to retreat from Riga last turn took up defensive positions in a swamp (good defensive terrain) on the coast, benefitting from beachhead supply but still likely to be overrun and destroyed by the mass of German infantry facing them. That said, they will delay at least a corps of 18th Army for another turn.
In the Pskov sector, the Soviets worked on organizing their forces, but did not achieve full coherence of Fronts this turn. This is an artifact of the incoherent organization of the starting Soviet forces, with Northwest Front right up on the Baltic coast and Northern Front organizing behind their left flank in the Pskov/Novgorod/Leningrad region. The two fronts have to move through each other to achieve the standard deployment with NW Front in front of Velikie Luki up to Lake Ilmen and Northern defending the Leningrad region. Front coherence is important for a variety of reasons as explained last turn; the Soviet player is obviously aware of this and working hard on the problem.

The three divisions that were forced to retreat from Riga last turn took up defensive positions in a swamp (good defensive terrain) on the coast, benefitting from beachhead supply but still likely to be overrun and destroyed by the mass of German infantry facing them. That said, they will delay at least a corps of 18th Army for another turn.
In the Pskov sector, the Soviets worked on organizing their forces, but did not achieve full coherence of Fronts this turn. This is an artifact of the incoherent organization of the starting Soviet forces, with Northwest Front right up on the Baltic coast and Northern Front organizing behind their left flank in the Pskov/Novgorod/Leningrad region. The two fronts have to move through each other to achieve the standard deployment with NW Front in front of Velikie Luki up to Lake Ilmen and Northern defending the Leningrad region. Front coherence is important for a variety of reasons as explained last turn; the Soviet player is obviously aware of this and working hard on the problem.

- Attachments
-
- Sovnorthendtn4.jpg (774.47 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
Army Group Center represents the principal threat to the Soviet position this turn. It should have been clear to Soviet leadership that at least one German panzer corps did an HQBU last turn in their sector. Large groups of German infantry, representing at least four corps, arrived in front of the land bridge. Some German armored units in the Mogliev sector were showing some fuel stockpiles (using the fuel soft factor on the counters) Farther to the south, the refugees from the first-turn Rovno armored concentration dove into the swamps last turn in an attempt to escape, pursued by a corps from 1st Panzer Group and some infantry from 17th Army.


- Attachments
-
- Sovcenter..arttn4.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
The Soviet response to this threat was to build a powerful defense in the land bridge sector, between Orsha and Vitebsk. The best Soviet generals are here, except for Rokossovsky, who is commanding an understrength mechanized corps in the swamps. Leadership is particularly important in this game. As the Soviets, you have a poor lineup of leaders at the beginning. One of the most helpful things you can do to make your forces stronger in the early going is to replace Army commanders with your best guys. Replacing an army commander costs about 15 AP, depending on the political ratings and rank of the guy you’re firing and his replacement. This means that, realistically, you can do one or at most two a turn (50 AP per turn for the Soviets in 1941). All the hexes across that land bridge front have defensive CV in the 30’s except for the southernmost hex, thanks to the good commanders.
Central sector’s defenses are strong, but somewhat crustal – if the Germans can break through in the land bridge area and turn north to link up with a similar breakthrough east of Polotsk, a lot of Soviet divisions could be pocketed. There are a few rear-area blockers, but very few.
Another use for AP is building support units. You should be doing plenty of this, too, though it is a longer-term remedy. The support units you build in July 1941 are going to be pretty much useless until the fall anyway, since they start at experience 10 and learn rather slowly. The turn you build them they are unarmed. But ultimately you want to have at least six artillery/mortar units in each army, and then you will need more guns for the artillery breakthrough divisions you get in 1942. Looking at those Soviet armies in the critical sectors, they vary widely in support unit allocation – there are a couple of armies with no SU at all, while others have as many as eight artillery regiments. Obviously, the Soviets didn’t use the Telemecus method of balancing support allocation. This is something that is more commonly used by the Axis: you set the support level for all your HQ’s to 0 except for your high command. Then, over a period of two or three turns, all the SU move up the chain of command to your GHQ at no cost in AP. You allocate them as needed at the beginning of the turn, also for no cost in AP, allowing them to migrate back up the chain of command for reallocation when no longer needed. The downside to this method is that you need to start each turn with SU allocation. This is a good function for an experienced CoS in a multi-player game such as this.
One notable weakness in the Central sector’s defenses is that very few units are guarding the escape route for the armor in the swamps. Those units are valuable, if not for the generally outmoded equipment they possess then for their experience and morale values. If they can escape successfully, the Soviet counteroffensive in the winter will be much stronger. Central and South sectors seem to each be expecting the other to cover their line of retreat, with the unfortunate result for the Soviets that they are relatively unprotected and likely to be cut off and destroyed.

Central sector’s defenses are strong, but somewhat crustal – if the Germans can break through in the land bridge area and turn north to link up with a similar breakthrough east of Polotsk, a lot of Soviet divisions could be pocketed. There are a few rear-area blockers, but very few.
Another use for AP is building support units. You should be doing plenty of this, too, though it is a longer-term remedy. The support units you build in July 1941 are going to be pretty much useless until the fall anyway, since they start at experience 10 and learn rather slowly. The turn you build them they are unarmed. But ultimately you want to have at least six artillery/mortar units in each army, and then you will need more guns for the artillery breakthrough divisions you get in 1942. Looking at those Soviet armies in the critical sectors, they vary widely in support unit allocation – there are a couple of armies with no SU at all, while others have as many as eight artillery regiments. Obviously, the Soviets didn’t use the Telemecus method of balancing support allocation. This is something that is more commonly used by the Axis: you set the support level for all your HQ’s to 0 except for your high command. Then, over a period of two or three turns, all the SU move up the chain of command to your GHQ at no cost in AP. You allocate them as needed at the beginning of the turn, also for no cost in AP, allowing them to migrate back up the chain of command for reallocation when no longer needed. The downside to this method is that you need to start each turn with SU allocation. This is a good function for an experienced CoS in a multi-player game such as this.
One notable weakness in the Central sector’s defenses is that very few units are guarding the escape route for the armor in the swamps. Those units are valuable, if not for the generally outmoded equipment they possess then for their experience and morale values. If they can escape successfully, the Soviet counteroffensive in the winter will be much stronger. Central and South sectors seem to each be expecting the other to cover their line of retreat, with the unfortunate result for the Soviets that they are relatively unprotected and likely to be cut off and destroyed.

- Attachments
-
- Sovcenterendtn4.jpg (1.16 MiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
In the southern sector, Soviet forces began the turn with the majority of Southern Front isolated by a roaming SS Motorized Division. The isolation, however, was not a solid pocket and thus merely an annoyance, cutting supplies for a turn and slowing Southern Front’s withdrawal. Along the Dnepr up to Kiev, only a very tenuous screen of Axis forces – some Germans from 6th Army, a reinforced panzer corps from 1st Panzer Group, and a bunch of Romanians – faced a similarly weak screen of Soviet forces behind the river. Scattered forces remained around Odessa, where the defenses are a little more muscular than the Germans could have detected during their turn.


- Attachments
-
- Sovsouthbegintn4.jpg (878.98 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
Soviet forces in this sector confined themselves to continuing their steady retreat in central Ukraine, while solidifying their line behind the central Dnepr with poor-quality units that will still most likely prevent any dramatic German moves in the area. Southern Front has now managed a screen that at least extends all the way from the Black Sea to the Dnepr, preventing any German units from simply walking past their positions. Their front is not strong, and they are obviously counting on poor supply and limited infantry support to prevent rapid German advances to the east into the Dnepropetrovsk/Zaporozhye region. The factories in both those cities, and those in Kremenchug, have not yet been evacuated, offering the Axis a juicy strategic target if they do have enough MP to get there. There is one weak cavalry division in Dnepropetrovsk, but even if the Germans don’t have the MP for a hasty attack to displace it, simply putting the city in ZoC will make evacuation of the factories harder (rail cost is doubled if you are moving out of a ZoC).
It is unusual to see Army Group South be so quiescent. In multi-player games, it is often difficult to convince a regional commander that his region is unimportant, and he should give up assets to more critical sectors. It seems in this game the Axis CoS, Hobotango, has managed this feat.
Notably, Soviet southern front apparently had the opportunity to open the small pocket in the vicinity of Uman and did not do so. Perhaps they figured that rescuing (or postponing the death of) the understrength mechanized corps in the pocket wasn’t worth the additional division they would have had to put at risk by advancing from the Dnepr line.

It is unusual to see Army Group South be so quiescent. In multi-player games, it is often difficult to convince a regional commander that his region is unimportant, and he should give up assets to more critical sectors. It seems in this game the Axis CoS, Hobotango, has managed this feat.
Notably, Soviet southern front apparently had the opportunity to open the small pocket in the vicinity of Uman and did not do so. Perhaps they figured that rescuing (or postponing the death of) the understrength mechanized corps in the pocket wasn’t worth the additional division they would have had to put at risk by advancing from the Dnepr line.

- Attachments
-
- Sovsouthendtn4.jpg (976.77 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
Losses this turn were 163,914 Soviet to 18,491 Axis (255:62 in the air). Deployed forces are 3,848,708 Soviet to 3,392,889 Germans (7,522 to 3,616 in the air). Intensity of air combat has been low for a couple of turns now. Both sides are keeping their air bases well behind their lines, meaning that air interceptions are unusual and interdictions very unlikely (looks like the Germans had about ten missions this turn). The Soviets did not do the by-now standard widespread bombing missions. Looks like both sides are hoarding their air forces and letting the ground troops fight it out.
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
In commentary from Comrade Marshal Fetterkrolle, in the northern sector:
Riga fell to a very lucky attack, I was hoping they would hold out 1 more turn, but they did not. Atleast it has slowed down axis advancements in the North. The Germans had to use 8 divisions to push us out, and with the best general in the game Walter Model!

Riga fell to a very lucky attack, I was hoping they would hold out 1 more turn, but they did not. Atleast it has slowed down axis advancements in the North. The Germans had to use 8 divisions to push us out, and with the best general in the game Walter Model!

- Attachments
-
- Fetterkrolletn4.1.jpg (126.83 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
He continues:
All of these axis formations wont reach the defensive lines for atleast 2 turns, so I would say the 3 divisions was worth losing in the long run

All of these axis formations wont reach the defensive lines for atleast 2 turns, so I would say the 3 divisions was worth losing in the long run

- Attachments
-
- Fetterkrolletn4.2.jpg (38.61 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
This turn the Northern defence recieved 8 new formations. 5 rifles, 2 naval brigades and 1 cavalry division. I am very suprized at the high CV from the brigades! (Some of these were taken from finland, along with 7th independent army) This Turn I will help with the defence of velikie luki as it is a likely target next turn. VL is sort of around the line where me and Littlebrother cut the defensive line between North and Center. Considering that is the case I helped with what units I have. Note that there will be a lot more reinforments coming from Center.


- Attachments
-
- Fetterkrolletn4.3.jpg (164.77 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
The Finns join the war and start advancing. In a turn or two they will face no enemies at all. But their efforts are not in vane, so far they managed to probably kill one division.


- Attachments
-
- Fetterkrolletn4.4.jpg (169.04 KiB) Viewed 897 times
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
In addition we have 3 new forts being built North of leningrad, it should be all we need to defend against the weak finish forces 
Hanko is also evacuated to avoid any potential disasters

Hanko is also evacuated to avoid any potential disasters
- thedoctorking
- Posts: 2958
- Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 am
RE: TTG multi-player teaching game: Soviet turn 4
Comrade Marshal Tonyhnz, commander of southern sector, chimes in:
south 04 swamp trying to extricate units/build def line

south 04 swamp trying to extricate units/build def line

- Attachments
-
- Tonytn4.1.jpg (226.34 KiB) Viewed 897 times