Captured cities should be immediate supply depots

[chuckfourth]

Thank you carlKey58 and Zovs very much for your work in digging out those figures for me. You two should be Moderators, So as I suspected the Germans are running their infantry divisions at about 750 to 800 tons "required" to reach 100% of required supply. As the Manual puts it on pg. 460 "the amount required (need) to reach 100 percent of required supply " what are the implications of that tonnage being 750-800 instead of 560? well it clearly means that the units require 30% more supply than they really did to achieve 100% of required supply and that's before we even consider living of the land.
But it seems it is much worse for the panzer divisions US war department gives 210 tons required per week for maintenance, game has about 1200 so the German panzer division when just sitting around seems to need 5 TIMES more supply than it really did to meet the manuals 100% required supply sitting there idling.
OK so this is what I have been trying to establish here, Thank you Thank you Thank you. Now that we have baseline figures we can finally have a discussion. Questions for you experienced players being

What are the implications of the German requirement/need overestimates?
Does it matter what figure the required tonnage is set at? could it be 10,000 or 1 ton, what difference would it make if we used those figures?

Here is the reference.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
go to Section IV. MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS
1. Total Requirements.
Were we have this for German divisions in 1941 in Russia.

"Armored divisions averaged some 30 tons daily when inactive and about 700 tons a day when engaged in heavy fighting; infantry divisions required 80 tons a day when inactive and some 1,100 tons during a day of heavy fighting"
The weekly "when inactive" tonnages are 560 tons for infantry and 210 tons per week for armored divisions.

And I greatly appreciate your attitude it is like a breath of fresh air to me, I am used to being roundly abused and shouted down for trying to bring these issues forward in WITE 1. I'd appreciate it if you didnt edit my post this time Loki

[RedLancer]

Required describes the amount a Unit needs to have if it is to hold 100%. It is shown as a separate column in comparison as any strength changes modify the amount. They may already have it. Additionally it is possible for Units at supply priority 4 that have not moved to get to 110% and those with max CPP can gain up to 150% of need. Requirement is not what you seem to think. It is not a record of immediate shortage. I'm not squirming - I'm frustrated because you don't understand the system and are so convinced that you have identified some nerfing of supply that you are unwilling to be persuaded otherwise.

If you look at Zovs post 291 ID shows Required as 232 - if you calculate 131% of 232 is 303.92 - 304 as shown. They don't need anymore. On T1 all units have more than that as shown by the numbers greater than 100%. There is no shortage on T1.

Let me re-iterate the WitE2 the average 100% holdings for 41 Inf Divs at 100% TOE are 238T Supply, 98T Fuel and 507T Ammo. Those numbers are what an Inf Div will seek to return to in most instances if no units are lost. However the number is not equal to weekly supply so your 560T figure you keep quoting has no direct relationship. As carlkay58 has explained what they may need at the end of T1 is hugely variable.

Above I also posted the detail on what the game factors in for weekly maintenance for an Inf Div:

An Inf Div at 100% TOE that does absolutely nothing and not subject to attrition requires just over 90T of Supplies a Turn.

This is much less than your quoted figure - but that is because not all elements of supply are tracked. The system is still overly generous in logistical terms. Otherwise it would be a logistics game and not a wargame.

[chuckfourth]

Thank you for that clarification Red lancer.
I think I see my mistake now.
So the "Required" column is the Tonnage a division would IDEALLY hold 'organically' or put another way would like to 'have on hand' within the division. It is the ideal supply stockpile the division would like to hold. And of course an understrength division automatically has a lower "requirement".
Is that correct?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Thank you for that clarification Red lancer.
I think I see my mistake now.
So the "Required" column is the Tonnage a division would IDEALLY hold 'organically' or put another way would like to 'have on hand' within the division. It is the ideal supply stockpile the division would like to hold. And of course an understrength division automatically has a lower "requirement".
Is that correct?

no its the stockpile if the unit is at 100 TOE and this is varied by your choices in terms of setting supply priorities.


If you set the supply priority to something <4 then it will want less in the first case. At 4 it will feasibly gain 110% if it doesn't move and up to 180% of their ammunition needs if you also have 100 CPP - see 25.8.3 in the rules

[RedLancer]

Yes - but by using supply priority you can increase/decrease the 'have on hand' levels of your units to assist in allocating supplies to those in greatest need.

[chuckfourth]

Well I'm glad that is cleared up, so given that required fuel is the divisions stockpile and according to German report series Armored and Mechanized divisions carried double there normal fuel allocation for the start of Barbarossa. In WITE2 these type divisions appear to have about 120%-130% fuel "In unit" at start, so these "in unit" fuel values should be 200% ? assuming German report series is correct.

[RedLancer]

On T1 the Panzer/Mot Divisions have about 130% fuel and not 200%.

I very much doubt that what you are quoting is accurate as fuel carrying is very difficult and throughput is everything. This is an in game abstraction as fuel is resupplied daily in reality not weekly as in game.

A Pz Division had about 430 ton in vehicles with 400 to 500 ton for resupply which was 'replaced' every 24 hours from the depot/rail head. Doubling that total would be too much to carry (i.e. an extra 900 - 1000 tons for resupply so vehicles that would normally have 400-500 would have 1300-1500!)

[chuckfourth]

Thank you for your Reply RedLancer.
Yes could be an error, sounds a lot. perhaps they mean each tank has jerrycans attached to the weight of its normal fuel tank, which would be less that 130 % or nearby perhaps.
Now I know I don't have the game but the Manual is available.
Do I have this right?
Depots must be on railines that connect back to supply in the rear and you must be within 30 hexes of a depot to draw supply from it.
and my questions are, because I haven't as yet found anything in the manual on it or in the AARS.
Is the supply that a unit draws the same at 30 hexes as it is at does from 1 hex?
If there is a decrease in supply delivered as a units distance form the depot increases what is it?

Thanks in advance Chuck.

[elmo3]

Maybe you should RTFM rather than asking Red Lancer to spoon feed you the answers? Right now the whole team is very busy finding, confirming, and fixing bugs for those of us who do own the game.

[MakeeLearn]

Necessity....

[MakeeLearn]

Russian ponies could make do with grazing, seasonal, as a primary source of food. The higher bred German horses needed grains to supplement their grazing.


"Captured cities should be immediate supply depots" ???
A depot is more than just supplies, it is a infrastructure to manage and distribute. A investment of a AP to create the infrastructure seems justifiable.

[chuckfourth]

Hi MakeeLearn
Yes you are correct it is an attention grabbing headline, what I'm actually saying is that if you capture a enemy HQ you get a few tons of supply, If you capture intact compliant, 1 million population city you get nothing. Seems to me to be a rather large omission.
Do you know (if they exist) what those supply movement penalties are over the 30 hex range from depot to unit?

Ah elmo3, the sort of abuse I got so used to in WITE 1, you could just as easily have pointed me to the appropriate part of the manual, but preferred abuse, says a lot more about you than me my friend. Nothing to contribute but anger.

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Hi MakeeLearn
Yes you are correct it is an attention grabbing headline, what I'm actually saying is that if you capture a enemy HQ you get a few tons of supply, If you capture intact compliant, 1 million population city you get nothing. Seems to me to be a rather large omission.
Do you know (if they exist) what those supply movement penalties are over the 30 hex range from depot to unit?

From my little knowledge supply movement penalties would be terrain dependent and range limited.



25.2.5. MAxIMUM RANGES

The maximum distance a unit can access a depot is cannot be more than 30 hexes away. Ideally, the routine will try to avoid paths that cost 75 or more movement points but such a path might occur depending on the circumstances.These values will vary if the morale or logistics levels are set above 100.







"4.10.13. UNIT RESUPPLY

When a unit is eligible to get resupplied from its HQ it must first pass a leader administrative check. If successful it may get up to 20% of the need of the item (Motorized units seeking fuel or Artillery Units seeking Ammo get up to 40%) subject to availability and loss during the delivery.

Note that this process is repeated for up to 5 times per turn for each unit. Thus a unit that has good commanders all the way up the command chain (15.5) is likely to receive more supply on average than one that has poor commanders.

Units look to draw freight from the nearest depot, which can be some distance away. The further the unit is from the depot, the greater usage of vehicles and fuel to move the supplies and the more that is lost in transit.


The range for this supply is limited to either 30 hexes or 75 motorized MP if the logistics level is set to 100. All units can get freight from a depot up to 3 hexes away without vehicles by using horses.

Once the closest depot is depleted of freight, a unit will try to get its remaining needs from the next closest depot up to a maximum of five but normally only will access two different depots.




I have not read what the bonuses or penalties are for raising or lowering the logistics level.

[chuckfourth]

Thank you MakeeLearn.

Very excellent what I am interested in is the amount of supplies lost in transit.

So to be precise, at what distance from the depot do we begin to lose supplies?
and
How much supplies do we lose at the various distances?

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Thank you MakeeLearn.

Very excellent what I am interested in is the amount of supplies lost in transit.

So to be precise, at what distance from the depot do we begin to lose supplies?
and
How much supplies do we lose at the various distances?

I would guess that both are random. A check is probably done at every hex and for every amount lost.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Thank you MakeeLearn.

Very excellent what I am interested in is the amount of supplies lost in transit.

So to be precise, at what distance from the depot do we begin to lose supplies?
and
How much supplies do we lose at the various distances?

potentially at 1 hex

variable, truck breakdowns etc

you can see losses in the unit supply tab

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Russian ponies could make do with grazing, seasonal, as a primary source of food. The higher bred German horses needed grains to supplement their grazing.


"Captured cities should be immediate supply depots" ???
A depot is more than just supplies, it is a infrastructure to manage and distribute. A investment of a AP to create the infrastructure seems justifiable.

There are no ponies in Russia! Our horses also love to eat grain, but they also eat hay!

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Russian ponies could make do with grazing, seasonal, as a primary source of food. The higher bred German horses needed grains to supplement their grazing.


"Captured cities should be immediate supply depots" ???
A depot is more than just supplies, it is a infrastructure to manage and distribute. A investment of a AP to create the infrastructure seems justifiable.

There are no ponies in Russia! Our horses also love to eat grain, but they also eat hay!

I did not mean to disparage Russian horses. There are fine breeds of horses in Russia. I have read of the use of Russian ponies in WW2, such as the Ob Pony, that would be similar to America Indian ponies, in that they could survive on low-quality forage.

Guy Sajer wrote about them in his book "The Forgotten Solider"

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Russian ponies could make do with grazing, seasonal, as a primary source of food. The higher bred German horses needed grains to supplement their grazing.


"Captured cities should be immediate supply depots" ???
A depot is more than just supplies, it is a infrastructure to manage and distribute. A investment of a AP to create the infrastructure seems justifiable.

There are no ponies in Russia! Our horses also love to eat grain, but they also eat hay!

I did not mean to disparage Russian horses. There are fine breeds of horses in Russia. I have read of the use of Russian ponies in WW2, such as the Ob Pony, that would be similar to America Indian ponies, in that they could survive on low-quality forage.

Guy Sajer wrote about them in his book "The Forgotten Solider"

Pony (English pony, from Gallic ponaidh "little horse") is a subspecies of the domestic horse [1]. A characteristic feature is short stature (80-140 cm), powerful neck, short legs, endurance. Ponies include many breeds bred on the islands (British, Iceland, Sicily, Corsica, Gotland, Hokkaido).

In Russia, it is customary to refer to ponies as horses of Shetland, Welsh, Scottish, Icelandic, Falabella, American miniature breeds. The concept of "pony" in Russian hippological literature includes horses with a height at the withers of 100-110 cm and below, although some horses from the above breeds are much higher. Abroad, the growth scale for ponies is different: in Germany, they include horses with a height at the withers up to 120 cm and below, in England - up to 147.3 cm.

I have never heard of Russian pony breeds!

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Russian ponies could make do with grazing, seasonal, as a primary source of food. The higher bred German horses needed grains to supplement their grazing.


"Captured cities should be immediate supply depots" ???
A depot is more than just supplies, it is a infrastructure to manage and distribute. A investment of a AP to create the infrastructure seems justifiable.

There are no ponies in Russia! Our horses also love to eat grain, but they also eat hay!

Of course there are ponies in Russia! Where do you think the horses came from? [;)]