Stepping away...

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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panzer51
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

A simple Request
~ Relocating factories reduce the Soviets rail capacity as it did historically.


it does, but remember that in WiTE2 you do not have the abstraction in #1 of a global rail cap, its localised to where the entraining takes place
it does, but remember that in WiTE2 you do not have the abstraction in #1 of a global rail cap, its localised to where the entraining takes place
so if I move something from Odessa to Kuybyshev, where exactly do you incur railroad usage?
Aurelian
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Aurelian »

Nvm
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Joch1955

As others have said, if the issue is that the Russian player does not stand and fight, I would think the easiest way to force that would be by adjusting victory conditions. The Axis player already get higher points if they capture a city faster than the Axis did historically. Perhaps the bonus should be increased so there is an incentive to stay and fight.

No. Just no. Unless in the same time period you're going to force the Axis to act like they did. You know, no Leningrad or Moscow taking for starters. Or attacking no matter how worn out the panzers are.
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Aurelian
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Easiest thing - not to relocate industry. So you have a refinery, you don't fight you lose it and fuel production for good. Relocation should also take up some rail capacity, it typically took several hundred railroad cars and several trains to move the equipment and personnel. Now it simply disappears and reappears somewhere else.

Like it did in actuality. German recon photos showed thousands of railcars sitting at the stations. And they didn't do anything about it.

And remember, they don't resume production for quite awhile after they moved. And wait even more if you move them yourself
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loki100
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

A simple Request
~ Relocating factories reduce the Soviets rail capacity as it did historically.


it does, but remember that in WiTE2 you do not have the abstraction in #1 of a global rail cap, its localised to where the entraining takes place
it does, but remember that in WiTE2 you do not have the abstraction in #1 of a global rail cap, its localised to where the entraining takes place
so if I move something from Odessa to Kuybyshev, where exactly do you incur railroad usage?

the same way as any rail move capacity is generated, from what is available at level 2 railyards within 30 hexes.

This concept is utterly fundamental to the logistics model and how units are moved by rail.

Once you have the capacity to make the move, the usage is then placed on the rail hexes you pass over, again in the caes of factory evacuations --- in the logistics phase
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Zemke
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Zemke »

Maybe so, it is hard to tell really because how I play the Germans may not be the same as you and my Russian opponent may not play like some other Russian players.

As an example, in my other PvP "normal settings" game, my Opponent resigned on May 42 after I encircled a large number of Russians. I tried to tell him this was by no means as bad as it looked, but as he had not really seen anything like that since the beginning of the game, (because he fell back and there were no real encirclement battles), it looked far worse to him than it was IMO. He had a 6 million + man army going into 42. My point is, it is really hard to judge.

I will try your idea.
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Joch1955

As others have said, if the issue is that the Russian player does not stand and fight, I would think the easiest way to force that would be by adjusting victory conditions. The Axis player already get higher points if they capture a city faster than the Axis did historically. Perhaps the bonus should be increased so there is an incentive to stay and fight.

No. Just no. Unless in the same time period you're going to force the Axis to act like they did. You know, no Leningrad or Moscow taking for starters. Or attacking no matter how worn out the panzers are.

I think there is a balance with this. You don't want the victory system 'railroading' players but at the same time I think it is appropriate for it to be used to manage the 'flow' of the campaign to ensure that it is fun for both players.

For me the victory system needs to give meaningful choices in 1941 to both players.

So the Axis player should have the choice of being ambitious with their attacks in late summer/the snow turns and giving themselves the chance of winning the game in 41 or 42, or being more cautious in the expectation of trying to win the game in 43/44.

Similarly the Soviet player should be faced with the choice of either fighting forward, which if done skillfully could potentially win them the game in 41/42 or retreating quicker with the aim of winning in 43/44.

If the game is balanced you then potentially get (balanced in terms of which side wins) outcomes along the lines of
Aggressive Axis vs Aggressive Soviet - games ending in late 41/early 42
Cautious Axis vs Aggressive Soviet - games ending in late 42/early 43
Aggressive Axis vs Defensive Soviet - games ending in late 42/early 43
Cautious Axis vs Defensive Soviet - games ending in late 44.
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GibsonPete
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

Loki's reply that when the factories displace it reduces rail capacity is good enough for me. Nuff said.

Making the Soviets stand and fight is not a solution. Both players need the freedom to create their own strategy. When to attack, defend or retreat is strictly a player decision.
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panzer51
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

Making the Soviets stand and fight is not a solution. Both players need the freedom to create their own strategy. When to attack, defend or retreat is strictly a player decision.

yet as an Axis player you have forced unit withdrawals for no apparent reason. Interestingly, very few Soviet units are withdrawn for rebuilding.

The problem is that industry moves no matter what you do so you don't have to worry about it and can walk back. There is no political price to pay.
MarkShot
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by MarkShot »

I just wanted to say that I will be stepping away ...


















I have to go to the pharmacy to pick up some refills this morning, and will be back this afternoon.
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GibsonPete
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by GibsonPete »

Et tu, Brute? MarkShot are you serious. Care to explain.[&:]
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panzer51
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Et tu, Brute? MarkShot are you serious. Care to explain.[&:]

read at the bottom of his post
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by MarkShot »

Yep, I was being sarcastic. :)

I come and go. For me I am enjoying WITW, and every time I learn stuff like last night how to transfer squadron right in the middle AD creation, and how to see their range from transfer.

If you look at the change log of WITW, you know that WITE-2 is a toddler. It's going to take some time for it to mature. I respect you guys who PBEM or read historical sources and share your scholarship. Myself, I have a student's understanding of WWII.

I used to beta 10+ years for the grog-ish Panther Games. But the skill I brought was software engineering. So, I read. There is little I can offer regarding rail capacity, air loses, ranged tank outcomes, the strength of each sides officer corps. I trust the community and 2by3 will get it just perfect.

So, rather than make nuisance of myself. I continue to play and learn with WITW.
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loki100
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51

...

yet as an Axis player you have forced unit withdrawals for no apparent reason. Interestingly, very few Soviet units are withdrawn for rebuilding.


actually its a bit of a mix for the Axis and not always that realistic. While the bulk of the retraining from mot division to PzrGr formation does indeed require redeployment to France you'll notice a whole load of pretty major role changes happen on the map - feasibly while still in combat.

guess the Soviets didn't repurpose combat formations that often in the war? Hence the lack of withdrawals for this pupose. As you play you will notice it happens where a given formation undergoes a radical TOE change - some are flagged in the player's notes but others become obvious with actual play experience
ORIGINAL: panzer51

The problem is that industry moves no matter what you do so you don't have to worry about it and can walk back. There is no political price to pay.

WAD, been part of the WiTE2 design since it was first created. All part of reducing pointless micro games, similar to how the entire partisan war is now treated compared to WiTE1.

As explained above, these moves claim rail transport and impose rail usage - and take time to come back on line.
panzer51
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

WAD, been part of the WiTE2 design since it was first created. All part of reducing pointless micro games, similar to how the entire partisan war is now treated compared to WiTE1.

Poor design choice IMHO. Makes Soviet play predictable and ahistorical. There should be a hard choice for a Soviet player. By the way some delays for industry reemergence are way too short.
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by Denniss »

ORIGINAL: panzer51
By the way some delays for industry reemergence are way too short.
Do you have some examples?
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loki100
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51
WAD, been part of the WiTE2 design since it was first created. All part of reducing pointless micro games, similar to how the entire partisan war is now treated compared to WiTE1.

Poor design choice IMHO. Makes Soviet play predictable and ahistorical. There should be a hard choice for a Soviet player. By the way some delays for industry reemergence are way too short.

actually I personally think its a great change, it removes what was a pretty tedious aspect of #1. Was so relieved to be told I could forget all about when I first started to test WiTE2.

Now I agree that too rapid a retreat by the Soviets should have more penalties than it does but I really don't think fussing about factory evac is the tool to be honest. If a factory has to move earlier than planned the Soviets lose 2 things, some in-situ production and it takes longer to come back on line.

I'd also like to see the impact of the new combat routines on 1941, I think that removes many of the problems now that relative unit experience has more of a role. That makes allowing the Germans to reach beyond the Dnepr and Smolensk too early a far more dangerous gambit - but as ever, I'd like some empirical data on this as it seems few AARs have started since 01.15. But I have seen the impact in late 42 and it seems to return the game to the situation where the Red Army is vulnerable even if not pocketed to catastrophic losses.
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

ORIGINAL: panzer51
By the way some delays for industry reemergence are way too short.
Do you have some examples?
Yeah I will post them later when I'm at home so I can check my files.
panzer51
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by panzer51 »

guess the Soviets didn't repurpose combat formations that often in the war? Hence the lack of withdrawals for this pupose.

Not really. Soviets withdrew their airgroups for rebuilding all the time. For example, 63 BAP withdrew on September 24, 1941. Only returned on October 23, 1942. Is it in the game? Nope.
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loki100
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RE: Stepping away...

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: panzer51
guess the Soviets didn't repurpose combat formations that often in the war? Hence the lack of withdrawals for this pupose.

Not really. Soviets withdrew their airgroups for rebuilding all the time. For example, 63 BAP withdrew on September 24, 1941. Only returned on October 23, 1942. Is it in the game? Nope.

apologies - hadn't realised you had shifted the analysis to the changing air OOB.

Have a look at the reinforcement chart for the Soviets, from late 41 to mid/late 42 there is endless churn of air groups and AOG as the VVS re-organised, so I think that is modelled?
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