War in the East Q&A

[PyleDriver]

(DAR) Manstein was called to replace Lindemann's 18th Army command. He wasted no time to start counterattacking...Opps, wrong thread, ah enjoy it anyway...

[ComradeP]

How does the game handle units with TOE's that changed very slowly, even though they were possibly reclassified when they still had their old equipment, or were downgraded? Do units automatically get the chance to gain the equipment they're eligible to get after they switch TOE or are there strings attached? What about units that were actually equipped with entirely different equipment than other units in their class, like GD and LSSAH, DR, TK and Wiking being closer to Panzer divisions than Motorised/PzG divisions even though they were called Motorised/PzG divisions before the differences between a PzG and Pz division became negligible in practice in many cases? Do they get special TOE's?

Examples: the SS Polizei division which took half a year to become a PzG formation and to be officially reclassified as such, and a formation like 13th Tank Corps which became (the second coming of) 13th Mechanised Corps out of necessity because it was badly shot up, though even the Soviet records seem to be confused as to when to stop calling it a Tank Corps.

[Walloc]

Now that we are at ToE questions. I understand how the withdrawl and refitting for units function changing the units ToE, at leased i pretend i do![;)]

My question is. How are more general ToE changes done, if at all?
Specificly the channge to the 7 btn 1943 German Inf div vs the 9 Btn one. Since it doesnt seem feasible too have alot of inf divs leave the lines. Overall this should free some german inf manpower for the german side. Tho in the case of many of divs the change was more in name than game as they alrdy were severly understrength, so more a question of amalging those btns.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Walloc


My question is. How are more general ToE changes done, if at all?
Specificly the channge to the 7 btn 1943 German Inf div vs the 9 Btn one. Since it doesnt seem feasible too have alot of inf divs leave the lines. Overall this should free some german inf manpower for the german side. Tho in the case of many of divs the change was more in name than game as they alrdy were severly understrength, so more a question of amalging those btns.

Units do not have to leave the Eastern Front to re-organize to a new TOE. TOEs upgrade on set dates and units set to a particular TOE that upgrades will attempt to conform to the new TOE thereafter. Units do not change TOEs instantaneously so a variable number of weeks may go by before the new TOE is adopted.

[Walloc]

Thx Jaws,

Rasmus

[ComradeP]

jaw: any answer to my questions?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

How does the game handle units with TOE's that changed very slowly, even though they were possibly reclassified when they still had their old equipment, or were downgraded? Do units automatically get the chance to gain the equipment they're eligible to get after they switch TOE or are there strings attached? What about units that were actually equipped with entirely different equipment than other units in their class, like GD and LSSAH, DR, TK and Wiking being closer to Panzer divisions than Motorised/PzG divisions even though they were called Motorised/PzG divisions before the differences between a PzG and Pz division became negligible in practice in many cases? Do they get special TOE's?

Examples: the SS Polizei division which took half a year to become a PzG formation and to be officially reclassified as such, and a formation like 13th Tank Corps which became (the second coming of) 13th Mechanised Corps out of necessity because it was badly shot up, though even the Soviet records seem to be confused as to when to stop calling it a Tank Corps.

Sorry ComradeP, I missed your question.

I'll try to clarify a bit more how the TOE process works. There is a file in the game called wrob.dat that contains the various TOEs for every unit in the game (there are several hundred of these TOEs). The TOEs are segregated by type of unit and time of the War. For example, there is a "theoretical" panzer division TOE for every year of the War including the infamous '45 Panzer division. Not only are there separate TOEs for unit types (e.g. armor versus infantry) but separate TOEs even within types. The elite SS divisions for example have at times three different TOEs running simultaneously.

The actual units in any scenario are listed in the scenario file and are "pointed" to a particular TOE in the wrob.dat file that they will follow. Although the TOE specifies how the unit is supposed to be organized, the scenario designer will modifiy this organization to reflect how the unit was actually organized at the time the scenario begins. For example, the TOE of the '41 Panzer division calls for the division to be equipped with Panzer III medium tanks but the actual historical unit could have say out-of-production Panzer 35s instead. When these Panzer 35s are lost in combat the program will try to replace them with the Panzer IIIs called for in the TOE. If there are no available Panzer IIIs, the program may substitute Panzer 38Es since they are also medium tanks. Without special exception (certain assault guns/tank destroyers), the program will never substitute one class of AFV for another. Therefore unlike WIR, you'll never see a unit composed of a disproportionate number of a particular AFV type (like 80 Panzer IVe).

If memory serves me (I'm not responsible for the scenario files just the TOEs) the SS Polizei division withdraws from the game and re-organizes "off map" into an SS Panzergrenadier division then returns as such.

As for the 13th Tank/Mechanized Corps, Russian corps (tank/mech/cavalry/rifle) are not "buildable" as unique units. You, the player, have to build them out of their component brigades/divisions. Therefore the number assigned to a mechanized corps constructed out of some of the components of a particular tank corps would simply be the next number to be assigned. In the game to have this exact re-organization occur would require that there be only 12 mechanized corps in existence at the time you broke down the 13th Tank Corps to form the 13th Mechanized Corps.

[jaw]

A correction here to my comments above. Looking over the latest version of the rules I noticed that mechanized corps can only be formed from motorized or mechanized brigades. Also when you breakdown a tank corps or mechanized corps it forms three brigades of the same type that are unique to the parent corps. I doubt that these brigades can be combined with anything else as a result.

You could disband a tank corps (which I would not recommend doing given the cost in admin points and experience to create it in the first place) and form a mechanized corps to "simulate" the conversion. Unfortunately the motorized or mechanized brigades that form the mechanized corps would already have to be in existence and the only value in disbanding the tank corps (other than historical color) would be to add its components back into the pool.

[ComradeP]

Do pre-war Soviet divisions or divisions that participated in the Winter War and were not badly mauled start with higher experience?

Do German infantry divisions start with varied TOE levels, due to their Welle, but with a same general TOE they can fill up?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Do pre-war Soviet divisions or divisions that participated in the Winter War and were not badly mauled start with higher experience?

Do German infantry divisions start with varied TOE levels, due to their Welle, but with a same general TOE they can fill up?

The answer to your first question is that depends. There is a procedure in the game that essentially randomnizes the starting experience levels of Soviet units. This procedure results in some units being above average (by Soviet standards)and some below average with a bias to units deployed on the southern half of the map having more of the former. The result is that the "feel" of the opening German attack is very historical but there is no single Soviet division you could point to and definitively say it will always be better or worse than average in every game.

The answer to your second question is yes. The scenario designer will use to theoretical TOE as a starting point then customize it for the individual division.

[entwood]

If Soviet units get destroyed will the game have any provision for Partisans? Kind of reminds me of old SPI War in the East that had this?

[elmo3]

Yes, partisans are in the game. The Axis player needs to garrison cities he takes or partisans will really become a problem.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: entwood

If Soviet units get destroyed will the game have any provision for Partisans? Kind of reminds me of old SPI War in the East that had this?

There is not the one for one creation like there was in the SPI game but in supply units that "shatter" (unit destroyed and eliminated from the map) will provide a portion of their surviving manpower for the creation of partisan cadres. The placement of these cadres is not directly related to hex the combat unit was destroyed in as it was in the SPI game.

[ComradeP]

Is there a smaller chance that partisan units form in the Baltic States and the Soviet-occupied part of Finland compared to other parts of the USSR (considering that Soviet partisan activity in those regions was fairly minor)?

Is there a chance pro-Axis partisan units will form in the Baltic States and Finland during a presumably late war Soviet counteroffensive that recaptures the territory?

[ComradeP]

And a third question: How does refitting work in terms of how the replacements in the refit pool are spread amongst the refitting units?

Let's say the player has 10 units in refit mode, do they all get a percentage of the replacements from the refit pool (and possibly a percentage of the replacements from the normal replacements pool after that?), or do they get replacements one by one, as in: the first unit placed in refit mode, or a randomly selected unit is filled up first, and the remaining replacements then go to the next one, and so on, until the replacements are all gone?

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

And a third question: How does refitting work in terms of how the replacements in the refit pool are spread amongst the refitting units?

Let's say the player has 10 units in refit mode, do they all get a percentage of the replacements from the refit pool (and possibly a percentage of the replacements from the normal replacements pool after that?), or do they get replacements one by one, as in: the first unit placed in refit mode, or a randomly selected unit is filled up first, and the remaining replacements then go to the next one, and so on, until the replacements are all gone?

In order to avoid all the troops going to the first unit, there are several passes in both the refit and normal replacement phases (at least I'm pretty sure there are, I know there are in the normal replacement phase). So the code tries to spread out the available manpower to some extent.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Is there a smaller chance that partisan units form in the Baltic States and the Soviet-occupied part of Finland compared to other parts of the USSR (considering that Soviet partisan activity in those regions was fairly minor)?

Is there a chance pro-Axis partisan units will form in the Baltic States and Finland during a presumably late war Soviet counteroffensive that recaptures the territory?

I don't think there are any reductions in the Baltics or former Finnish areas, although I've never actually seen any partisan cadres in the Finnish front area, so Gary may have blocked this out. I have seen them in the Baltic area. There is a rule about the Baltics that partisans may not attack in the Baltic States rail area until after December 1, 1941.

There are no pro-Axis partisans.

[nicwb]

ORIGINAL: wmcalpine

Question about Moscow isolation effects:

Are there any effects due to the isolation of Moscow (or for that matter, isolation of any critical urban/supply/resource centers) in PDs AAR?

Bill


If you mean any "political" effects then no. The isolated units suffer all kinds of bad effects.

Does this mean that apart from tactical considerations eg supply nets, defensive positions, destroying opponents etc (or in the case of Moscow/Berlin for the sheer prestiege of it [:)] ) there's no particular reason to capture a city ?

On a more particular question - having read the Leningrad AAR's - does the USSR get to recreate its famous ice road supply line to the city in Winter ?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: nicwb
Does this mean that apart from tactical considerations eg supply nets, defensive positions, destroying opponents etc (or in the case of Moscow/Berlin for the sheer prestiege of it [:)] ) there's no particular reason to capture a city ?

On a more particular question - having read the Leningrad AAR's - does the USSR get to recreate its famous ice road supply line to the city in Winter ?

No, many cities (Moscow being one of them) are objective hexes that count toward victory conditions.

As long as the Soviet player holds an in-supply port on Lake Ladoga, Leningrad can be supplied regardless of weather. The "ice road" is effectively the supply path traced from the lake port to Leningrad during winter turns when the lake is iced over.

[Endsieg]

in recent days, weeks various AARS have been halted due BUGS and/or tester resources needed elsewhere to test for bugs...it appears to me?
I sense a crisis in this game going from alpha to beta....hopefully, i'm wrong or exaggerating?
There is an impatient niche community out here dying to whip out their credit cards and buy/play this game.
When ?