Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
Nothing. Everyone knows an RBMK reactor can't explode. And by the way, there is no graphite on the ground, got it?
By the way, it said the video was unavailable.
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
WTH?
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
Nothing. Everyone knows an RBMK reactor can't explode. And by the way, there is no graphite on the ground, got it?
By the way, it said the video was unavailable.
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
WTH?
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
Who's to blame then?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
Nothing. Everyone knows an RBMK reactor can't explode. And by the way, there is no graphite on the ground, got it?
By the way, it said the video was unavailable.
I think the important quote from that series is:
"What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all."
; Julia Child
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
WTH?
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
Who's to blame then?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
Nothing. Everyone knows an RBMK reactor can't explode. And by the way, there is no graphite on the ground, got it?
By the way, it said the video was unavailable.
I think the important quote from that series is:
"What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all."
Haven't you ever heard that shyte happens? There you go for the blame.
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Who's to blame then?
I think the important quote from that series is:
"What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all."
Haven't you ever heard that shyte happens? There you go for the blame.
Yes, the UK's poor response to Covid is simply down to sheer misfortune. There was absolutely nothing that could have been done to have led to a better outcome for the UK.
The comparatively better performance of other similar, nations is down to sheer chance alone, and not due to different responses.
; Julia Childwarspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
WTH?
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
Who's to blame then?
Even if one has a good, credible, answer to that question it shouldn't be posted on this forum.ORIGINAL: warspite1
Who is to blame? Give me a break.
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
WTH?
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
Who's to blame then?
WTH? (Part Deux)
The point being made is that this is (or should be) a politics free zone or the thread get's closed down - as happened to the last one. Posting some old toss by that rag is no different than posting some equal load of toss from the rag that is the Daily Mail having a go at Sturgeon etc etc etc.
Who is to blame? Well in a non partisan world, the virus is to blame. The politicians (whatever their political leanings) who happen to be in charge at the time, are the ones responsible for doing the best they can in truly unprecedented times. They are trying to meet the challenge of the virus, with the challenge of the economies they are responsible for, not falling off a cliff.
What has been the performance so far? Well, in case anyone hasn't noticed, we are still living through this.
Of course a Government (and I say again, of whatever political leanings) will be in the firing line no matter what they do.
A prime example now is the accusation that tighter controls should have been put in place earlier. But now the Government is doing just that (re Spain and the quarantine) they are being blamed for that too.
Point is, a Government will always be wrong because the nature of this virus is such that its going to go severe damage (lives, health, economy) no matter what it does.
Firstly, its not the place to have that conversation, but secondly, its just not helpful.
Twaty, self serving, self centred politicians need to put away their party politics and we all need to work together on this.
Blame and recrimination can come later, but its really not helpful now is it?
I said at the start of this that the economic repercussions scare me more than the virus. There were those - people of a certain age on this thread who should know better - who seemed to take a head in the sand approach that its not so bad and it will be alright. Day after day of job losses and deserted high streets tell a different picture. The virus numbers are going up, and selfish anti-social morons are more interested in their holidays (that they should never have booked) than the big picture are likely the same ones that blame governments for not 'doing more' without bothering to understand what 'doing more' would have meant.
; Julia Child
New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on TwitterORIGINAL: obvert
A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.
Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.
So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
You may want to consider the issue was top of the national risk register in the UK for quite some time. Not exactly "unprecedented"
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
[Sarcasm] It's the fault of the public.
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Why was it possible to book holidays in the first place
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.
Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds. Don't like x from y party? Well that's handy because he/she's in charge when Covid struck so regardless of what they do I'll stick the boot in.
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
You may want to consider the issue was top of the national risk register in the UK for quite some time. Not exactly "unprecedented"
It's like naivety city. The possibility of a World War was on the minds of the British, French, Americans etc etc for 'quite some time' before the war. So does that mean they were all fully prepared, and knew exactly what to expect when it came? Because as we know, knowing something might possibly happen, but we don't know what form it will take or how bad, means we can be fully prepared when it (whatever it is) comes....
Oh and you may want to look up what words mean. That it was not unexpected doesn't make what has happened unprecedented
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
[Sarcasm] It's the fault of the public.
Strange. So when people completely disregard advice on social distancing - that is the Government's fault? I should have known you were a fully paid up member of the "nothing's my fault" brigade......
warspite1ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Why was it possible to book holidays in the first place
....and there is the confirmation
I actually always maintained that it is impossible to have a "no politics version" of something that gets governments involved (and judged) - not to mention the great "masks are leftists/fascists/only for the sane of mind" debate.ORIGINAL: warspite1
So this is the "No Politics Version" and you post an article in The Guardian that, here's a shocker than no one could have possibly foreseen, blames a Tory Government for thousands of deaths. The left wing Grauniad taking a pop at a right of centre Government - Well as my old mate Iago would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIFT6iILaY
Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds. Don't like x from y party? Well that's handy because he/she's in charge when Covid struck so regardless of what they do I'll stick the boot in.
It's like naivety city. The possibility of a World War was on the minds of the British, French, Americans etc etc for 'quite some time' before the war. So does that mean they were all fully prepared, and knew exactly what to expect when it came? Because as we know, knowing something might possibly happen, but we don't know what form it will take or how bad, means we can be fully prepared when it (whatever it is) comes....
Oh and you may want to look up what words mean. That it was not unexpected doesn't make what has happened unprecedented
Strange. So when people completely disregard advice on social distancing - that is the Government's fault?
I should have known you were a fully paid up member of the "nothing's my fault" brigade......
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
ORIGINAL: obvert
A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.
Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.
So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.
New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter
; Julia Child ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on TwitterORIGINAL: obvert
A perhaps less volatile and more profitable argument can be made for learning from the initial wave difficulties that some countries faced, and put in preparations so that those same mistakes can be avoided. There are well documented issues with the initial response to the virus by the UK government, and many of those revolve around not learning from Italy, not listening to a broad medical base (with actual frontline hospital leaders in the discussions) and not implementing lockdowns more quickly.
Objectively, in non-political terms, it's not hard to find the best solutions to fighting this disease. We've listed them in this thread many times. In Europe Germany has done very well. They have been aggressive, determined to reduce cases by requiring social distancing, mask-wearing and protocols, track and trace existing cases, test as much as possible and implement local and larger lockdowns when needed. They also have a medical monitoring program for all who test positive for Covid so that they can be prevented from getting too serious before getting medical treatment and have done better at keeping it out of care homes.
So let each contributing member decide how this plays out politically for their own country, but the models are ready to be followed, and if more countries adopt similar approaches, it will save lives. This is fact.
New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.
South Korea is the place to emulate.
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
New York checking in. Yup, we did the same stuff and had the same level of success. Any other state looking to flatten the curve need only look to New York State. The methods are not difficult to understand. You just need to do the work to get the results. The United States could get to New York State/ German levels in 6-8 weeks if the just did the work. We could have a real reopening by October 1 and all schools reopened right after Thanksgiving. Or, we can continue to watch "Karen" bitch about wearing a mask on Twitter
New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.
South Korea is the place to emulate.
We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.
; Julia ChildI think you missed John's point - that NY is a better case in point because it did have a massive outbreak and had to suppress it with max effort at every level. Because Korea never got a massive outbreak, it does not show the example of how to overcome it.ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
New York is not the place to emulate since the state had nursing homes take Covid-19 patients instead of isolating them.
South Korea is the place to emulate.
We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.
So after a dozen times you still can't comprehend it. [&:]
Korea had no curve to flatten because they had few cases because of their preparedness. That is what you want to emulate. Not New York City which could not even maintain their stockpile of masks and ventilators. That was set up a few years back. But New York City is not the only entity which did not maintain their stockpiles. But the best is not needing the stuff in the first place.
