Empire of the Sun - DesertWolf101 (J) vs Andy Mac (A)

[DesertWolf101]

Thanks to my extensive recon I have a good idea of Andy's air force composition in India. He has about 1,150 bombers and 250 fighters. He would have more fighters but I have been cutting them down in large numbers with my sweeps.

I on the other hand have about a similar number of fighters but only 100 naval bombers in the theater. I can fairly easily surge in several hundred more fighters but my bombers are currently busy in the Soviet Union and frankly I don't think I even have enough air support to cater to them in India anyways. In other words, it's going to be a defensive war for the Japanese in the air here.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

December 26-28, 1942

I finally caught up to Andy's Soviet army in the north and I have ordered a deliberate attack for next turn. I don't have high hopes, but fingers crossed nonetheless. I just hope his massed artillery doesn't crater my army.

In other news, check out what I found tucked away in the northeastern corner of India. Sneaky sneaky Andy..... hiding his massed bombers like this only further confirms to me that he is planning something big for this theater.

It can also be a defensive move. There they are safe from naval bombardment. It might be also further away from your air force than would be Karachi. Plus there is the question of where he has his aviation support. Spreading out his assets is just good prudence and if he has a shortage of aviation support, best to warehouse the surplus airframes on an inactive airfield.

Alfred

[DesertWolf101]

That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.

[ITAKLinus]

My understanding of that concentration is that he wants to keep them safe for the time being while he organizes an offensive.

Once he's ready, he brings them forward and unleashes them.

Given the fact you are committed in URSS, he will be able to push relatively quickly if he has a huge mass of bombers.

If he presses south of Delhi in the open ground, it's gonna be very complex for you. He advances quickly and there aren't many options for you to stop him.

I've had the whole India, but when the allied counterattacked landing in Karachi, I started developing Jalgaon, which is in good terrain, well connected to railways and can reach lvl9. Mostly, it cannot be bombed from the sea (but I guess this is not an issue here).
For the eventual Delhi axis of advance, I fortified the best I could Cawnpore, where I planned to leave behind a group of heroes to gain time. I intensively used the Thai army for Karachi defence, so, sadly, I hadn't them ready to be sacrified (it was April 44, so they would have gone soon anyway, here you're at a much earlier time).


If he advances on the plains, there isn't much you can do without fighter cover. If bombers are out of question, I would at least start bringing in the theater fighters of various kind so that you can at least contest the skies. Once he gets a strong air superiority and has enough bombers, the plains become a bloodbath. For you.
I would also bring many AA units in the area. With "many" I mean like 25-35 LCUs. The supply consumption is not that crippling, given that you have a very decent production in situ and I would bet you won't need them anytime soon in, for example, Onshu.
Last, but not least, I think that slowing him down can be feasible, should he rush through the plains but you need at least the fighter force to ensure you pose a threat.


Again: you're in a much earlier stage of the game than I've been, but that's my reading of the situation.


PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.

Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.

Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.

He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

[DesertWolf101]

December 29, 1942

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
In other news, check out what I found tucked away in the northeastern corner of India. Sneaky sneaky Andy..... hiding his massed bombers like this only further confirms to me that he is planning something big for this theater.

This looks like serious over-stacking. Do a night bombing run

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.

I don't believe one has to be a seer to predict that at some stage an Allied counter attack in India will be forthcoming.

The way to overcome the advantage of interior lines is to launch many attacks simultaneously. A counter attack in India should be accompanied by Allied attacks elsewhere. Anywhere Allied aircraft can participate should be prime candidates for counterattacks. Hence Australia, the Aleutians should be included. Even Samoa/Fiji and New Guinea would be candidates depending on where the Allied airfields are.

If your opponent is planning on counter attacking only in India, that would be a strategic mistake. He won't know beforehand if you plan to defend your Indian conquests of intend to trade space for time. If the latter, an oversized Allied presence in India will not achieve that much strategically. A return to the Burma border after 6 months (or more) results in only a marginal strategic improvement for the Allies.

On the other hand, multiple attack vectors promises the chance to reinforce the more worthwhile strategic objective. Hence the Allies should only concentrate enough assets in India to pin the enemy down but retain assets for other vectors.

Alfred

[Ambassador]

Let me rephrase what I wrote earlier. I had a doubt, as it’s « common forum knowledge » that non-Soviet air groups may not be used from a Soviet base, the planes being interned, but I have never seen tests being conducted, so I did a short one a week or two ago.

Non-Soviet air groups may not be transferred to a Soviet base, even if reassigned to Soviet Command HQ, whether the Soviets are active or not (and it doesn’t matter if the Soviets are activated in-game or in the scenario setup).

However, that short test showed me that air groups in a Soviet base (in the case of my test, a B-17 group in Vladivostok) could conduct missions (namely, Airfield targeted to Shikuka), whether they’re assigned to Soviet Far East Command or not, and whether the Soviets are active from the start or activated in-game is irrelevant.

The problem is actually getting the air groups in a Soviet base. I did not check what happens when you bring an air group through a Transport TF, but my test B-17 group could not transfer from Vlad to any other Soviet air base, only the Chinese bases.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Ambassador



Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.

Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.

He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

It is actually not as bad for a good defensive terrain with that much guns on defense. Supply problems might have applied to a lot of his units.

You did get a very bad adjusted AV, but your losses are only really higher for the disabled squads, and for vehicles (but always hard to tell whether you lost Motorized Support or an AFV) ; all other categories show basically equal losses, given the total numbers. Maybe more severe losses for the Soviets, as they were far less numerous.


EDIT : sorry for the triple post...[:o]

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus





Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.

He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.

There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101




He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.

There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

I did a test by putting a B-17 group in Vladivostok. I put others in Chinese bases. The groups in China couldn’t transfer to Soviet bases ; the group in Vlad could only transfer out to Chinese bases (or other non-Soviet bases in range). All Soviet bases gave the same answer as you.
The B-17 group in Vlad could not conduct bombing missions (I haven’t tested patrols) before activation, but could do it post-activation (or from start when I set the Soviet as active in the test scenario).

I am pretty sure, but haven’t tested it, that planes in Wasu cannot reach Alma-Ata, and vice versa, as planes move from off-map to on-map bases only through railroads.

EDIT : in other words, P-38 squadrons have the range to reach Wasu, but couldn’t transfer to other Soviet bases, whether off-map or on-map, and would still have around 50 hexes to cross to reach Yenki or Rashin.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.

I don't believe one has to be a seer to predict that at some stage an Allied counter attack in India will be forthcoming.

The way to overcome the advantage of interior lines is to launch many attacks simultaneously. A counter attack in India should be accompanied by Allied attacks elsewhere. Anywhere Allied aircraft can participate should be prime candidates for counterattacks. Hence Australia, the Aleutians should be included. Even Samoa/Fiji and New Guinea would be candidates depending on where the Allied airfields are.

If your opponent is planning on counter attacking only in India, that would be a strategic mistake. He won't know beforehand if you plan to defend your Indian conquests of intend to trade space for time. If the latter, an oversized Allied presence in India will not achieve that much strategically. A return to the Burma border after 6 months (or more) results in only a marginal strategic improvement for the Allies.

On the other hand, multiple attack vectors promises the chance to reinforce the more worthwhile strategic objective. Hence the Allies should only concentrate enough assets in India to pin the enemy down but retain assets for other vectors.

Alfred

I am definitely not taking any chances and I am keeping a close eye on other potential theaters where he could make his moves. Thus far though, I haven't seen any signals to indicate that he is planning offensives aside from India. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though so I remain wary.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

It is actually not as bad for a good defensive terrain with that much guns on defense. Supply problems might have applied to a lot of his units.

You did get a very bad adjusted AV, but your losses are only really higher for the disabled squads, and for vehicles (but always hard to tell whether you lost Motorized Support or an AFV) ; all other categories show basically equal losses, given the total numbers. Maybe more severe losses for the Soviets, as they were far less numerous.


EDIT : sorry for the triple post...[:o]

The questions that I have is whether to bother continuing the attacks here. It would be nice to retreat his force but that would require multiple attacks and I am not sure that is wise.

All good on the multiple posts - [:)]

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Ambassador



He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.

There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

I did a test by putting a B-17 group in Vladivostok. I put others in Chinese bases. The groups in China couldn’t transfer to Soviet bases ; the group in Vlad could only transfer out to Chinese bases (or other non-Soviet bases in range). All Soviet bases gave the same answer as you.
The B-17 group in Vlad could not conduct bombing missions (I haven’t tested patrols) before activation, but could do it post-activation (or from start when I set the Soviet as active in the test scenario).

I am pretty sure, but haven’t tested it, that planes in Wasu cannot reach Alma-Ata, and vice versa, as planes move from off-map to on-map bases only through railroads.

EDIT : in other words, P-38 squadrons have the range to reach Wasu, but couldn’t transfer to other Soviet bases, whether off-map or on-map, and would still have around 50 hexes to cross to reach Yenki or Rashin.

Damn, now I got what you meant. I understood you somehow moved a B17 group there during the test.

So, if he cannot rail the groups offmap and then inmap again, I guess he cannot move other than bombers from India.



Personally I would bet my head on an imminent offensive in India. I was just speculating about other possibilities.

[DesertWolf101]

December 30, 1942

Japanese destroyers sink a Soviet submarine as they attempt to clear the waters in front of Vladivostok.

Andy is pulling back his army near Irkutsk. I will follow and entrench in the next hex over if he stands his ground there as he likely will. This is the ideal place for me to hold the line. I think I only really need two hexes here (98,16 and 99,16) but I will also place some troops on 97,17 as added security. If there is any position to weather the future Soviet assaults I think this is it!

[Bif1961]

It looks like you lost almost the same percentage of forces committed since you out numbered him 2-1 in troops and you lost just over 2-1. The minus supply is good sign.