Types of support units?

[gradenko2k]

I get that setting the support level of an HQ to x will cause to try and obtain x support units of each "type", but what are the "types" of support units in the first place?

I can see Motorcycle SUs, AA SUs, Sapper/Pionere SUs and Construction SUs as being separate types each, but there are like a dozen different artillery units, and some are called howitzers and some are AT, and there are even some mortars.

How do I know which ones to assign or build?

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I get that setting the support level of an HQ to x will cause to try and obtain x support units of each "type", but what are the "types" of support units in the first place?

I can see Motorcycle SUs, AA SUs, Sapper/Pionere SUs and Construction SUs as being separate types each, but there are like a dozen different artillery units, and some are called howitzers and some are AT, and there are even some mortars.

How do I know which ones to assign or build?

From p 146 of the ebook

For example, if the player sets “Support
Level” to 3

the computer would attempt to provide 3
support units of each type,

to include Armored, Anti-Tank, Artillery, Anti-aircraft, Rocket, etc.

My addition

+3 Sappers

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

How do I know which ones to assign or build?

There comes a point where ''How many support units do I really need?''

I prefer Gun Howitizers and Rockets as the battle commited support units

AA gets redistributed to the air HQ's

Sappers go 1 each to spearhead Corps same as tanks

It's probably better to have su's directly attached rather than mostly going unused in the HQ

I'm particularly fond of Heavy AT guns directly attached to Soviet Corps. There real big guns 76mm IIRC.

[gradenko2k]

Thanks for the answers!

to include Armored, Anti-Tank, Artillery, Anti-aircraft, Rocket, etc.

Ok, I get this part so far, but what are the differences between all the different kinds of Artillery? Gun regiments, Artillery regiments, Howitzers, etc. etc.

[PMCN]

They have different ranges, rates of fire and weight of shell.

AT Gun Rgts are useful to engage armour...except that they mostly fail to target it and end up shooting HE into the oncoming infantry.

Mortar Rgt/Bn are very useful if you are facing an infantry attack as the 120 mm mortar will fire up to 3 times at (long, medium and short ranges) and has a good chance to kill things. Very useful when attached to a F.R.

Hwz Rgts fire at medium range, and possibly at long it is hard to check this completely since I don't see the range exactly. They have good effect though. The 152 mm Gun-Hwz seems a good weapon from my experience.

Gun Rgts fire at the longest range. The 76.2 mm field gun (note GUN) is a very nasty piece of work to the enemy. It will fire at long range and medium range and if fired from a F.R. will be lethal beyond belief, still they do a good job in the enemy at the start of the battle.

Rockets so far have been rather a flop. But then they don't have much experience so I suspect they miss more often then they hit. I can only judge by the Nebelwerfers and those seem nasty enough. But I only have a few rocket Bn in play at the moment as my Rgts are training so possibly this is underestimating their effect.

The difference between some of them is also TOE. An Art Rgt RVGK and an Army Artillery Rgt have different numbers and types of guns. The Army Artillery Rgt is all 152 mm Gun-Hwz's while the Art Rgt RVGK is a mix of 122 mm and 152 mm. The same is true for others. Just click on the TOE button and you will see what it is. The only thing to keep in mind is that Guns are long range, and Hwz's tend to be shorter ranged.

I build a mix of support units. Theoretically an Army would have: 2 Art Rgt RVGK, 1 Army Artillery Rgt, 1 ()Hwz Rgt, 2 AT Rgt, 2 Sapper Bn, 2 AA Bn, 1 construction Bn. In practice many have more and a lot have a lot less. Most of my motorcycle regiments have been added to tank Corps or Cavalry Corps but they are also useful.

My typical cavalry Corps has: motorcycle rgt/tank bn, AA bn, and Sapper Bn added to it. Tank Corps get: motorcycle Rgt, AA bn and sapper bn.

[gradenko2k]

Thanks Paul, you've been magnificently helpful in all my question threads so far.

One last question: If I assign SUs directly to units, as I was planning to do this with FRs, do I still need to lock the support so that STAVKA doesn't grab them?

[cookie monster]

All su's directly attached to a unit stay with that unit unitl returned to higher hq

[PMCN]

What Cookie Monster said. Plus it is very rare for a unit to move up the chain. I have STAVKA set to 4, Fronts set to 3, Armies set to 2. My airborne Corps (the only Corps I have) are locked since I don't want them to have more than the Mortar Rgt/Bn, AA Bn and Sapper Bn I have given them. Also HQs have a completely seperate and unrelated to their set demand engineering optimal request levels. Generally larger in higher level HQs it is in the manual, but be advised the Fronts will try and keep a certain level on engineering assets in hand.

I found/find that the routine shoves down. So it is harder to keep things in STAVKA or a Front HQ then it is to keep it in an Army HQ. It also isn't that good on sharing between armies in a Front. So one army will get 2 of something but another will get none rather than both getting one. Beyond that I find the automatic routine works ok, it probably won't do exactly what you want though.

What does float upwards are construction bn, for whatever reason these after rail repair work seem to end up in the Front HQ. Also doesn't often use the RR construction Bde for some reason or another. It is a good idea to move the RR Cosntruction Bde out of the front line units they are probably in...21, 22, 23 Armies or something like that to the various Front HQs. They are rather valuable when you go on attack and they can be deployed at up to 45 hexes from a Front HQ, assuming the AI bothers to use them.

[PMCN]

Just something on F.R.'s.  Big Anorak said something a while back that is important to keep in mind.  The F.R. is not the Maginot Line.  What you get for your 4 (or 16) AP is pre-registered artillery, dedicated land lines, an artillery plotting office and some decently trained professionals to man it.

The 19 APs you spend on a fully kitted out F.R. in 1941 will buy you between 1 and 3 weeks of delay.  1 week would suck, to put it mildly.  2 weeks is about what it should bring, and 3 weeks is golden.  It also buys you enhanced casualties to any attempt to take that hex if the F.R. is stacked with an infantry division or better 2.  If the enemy puts together an attacking force that is substantial it will not hold them off, but by god will they get hurt taking it; at least 1500 men lost (losses that are just about impossible for your bumbling troops to otherwise inflict).  But in my view the fact you forced the axis player to mass and commit to a deliberate attack is a net win for you. 

I would suggest adding a sapper bn (or if you want a rgt), a mortar Bn/AT Rgt/AA Bn, and a MG-Art Bn to the F.R.   In cities you might want to go full sapper or a mix of sappers and guns.  Sappers kill the bulk of the enemy tanks in 41...odd but true.  Flamethrowers are your friend.

Also it takes a minimum of 4 weeks for the F.R. to get set up properly, so don't expect miracles if it doesn't get that amount of time.  You need to plan well ahead for them to be effective.

The question really comes down to: is this worth 19 AP to you?  It is to me.  But you need to accept that it might still fall in the first attack and be realistic in what you expect it to deliver.  I also just to be clear don't mean that nothing else might not be a better use for the AP, it is a case of balance, something which is often apparently missing in internet discussions which devolve into min-max efficiency arguments more often then not.  It isn't an absolute, you should evaluate week by week what your needs are and what your AP levels are and balance those two.

And I'm glad my answers are helpful to you.  I try to make sure what I say is correct, and to the best of my knowledge it is...but that doesn't make it written in stone.

[gradenko2k]

I'm trying to experiment with attaching SUs directly to combat units, but I can't quite figure it out.

I have a Tank Corps and its Tank Army HHQ in the same hex; the HQ has some Gun Regiments, Sapper Regiments and a Mortar Regiment attached to it, and the support level is unlocked.

When I select the Tank Corps to attach units to it, all I can attach are Sapper Regiments.

What are the rules regarding attachment of SUs directly to combat units? Is there some kind of range limit or certain SU-type restrictions? I thought range was simply governed by Command Range - as long as the combat unit is within 5 - 15 - 45 - 90 hexes of an HQ, it should be able to draw SUs from that HQ.

[randallw]

Some types of the support units cannot be directly attached, like artillery.

There are many unhappy Axis players because of that rule. [:'(]

[PMCN]

A bit of an update on the value of rockets.  I saw a battle where my higher experience Katashuka  bn finally did something.  For 8 trucks it was a big effect, but it only happened as the battlelines hit, there was no obvious long range fire from the unit.  In another battle the lesser experienced Katashuka Bn was in, I saw no fire from it.  They may, due to the small numbers of the trucks be a lot more experience dependent then an artillery rgt.

But when they showed up...they showed up with solid hits.  I'd like to see what my Rgts do.  But experienced rocket support units are looking to be a worth while investment.  Just keep them off the front lines till they have at least 40 experience.  Also they build relatively slowly...takes 3-4 turns to fill out a regiment.

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Some types of the support units cannot be directly attached, like artillery.

There are many unhappy Axis players because of that rule. [:'(]

Biggest guns I can attach to Soviet Corps are the 76MM anti tank guns in the HEAVY AT Support Unit, I'm particularly fond of them

[gradenko2k]

Thanks randall for the clarification, I had forgotten about that.

Thanks Paul for the Katyusha update.

Follow-on questions:
Do we have a list of SUs or SU types that can be directly attached to combat units? I've only been able to do Sappers and AT units so far.

How does the direct SU attachment play with the limit on SU participation? As I understand it, you can attach up to 3 SUs to a combat unit, and those SUs will always participate in their mother unit's combats.

At the same time, SUs attached to an HQ *might* participate in any combat involving units under the HQ, provided that the units are within 5 hexes and provided that you pass a leader check. There's a maximum of 6 SUs that can participate in combat this way.

So what happens if I attack a hex with 3 Tank Corps, all with 3 SUs each, and the HQs of the Tanks Corps also has 6 SUs attached? How many SUs will participate in the combat?

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Thanks randall for the clarification, I had forgotten about that.

Thanks Paul for the Katyusha update.

Follow-on questions:
Do we have a list of SUs or SU types that can be directly attached to combat units? I've only been able to do Sappers and AT units so far.

From the manual
German Divisions and Soviet
Corps can directly attach up to three support units while numbered German regimental and
Soviet Tank and Mech Corps brigade break down units (i.e. 3/129 regiment) can attach one
support unit, but they cannot attach construction, labor, artillery, mortar, and rocket support
units, or support units with the designations LW or PVO.

How does the direct SU attachment play with the limit on SU participation? As I understand it, you can attach up to 3 SUs to a combat unit, and those SUs will always participate in their mother unit's combats.

At the same time, SUs attached to an HQ *might* participate in any combat involving units under the HQ, provided that the units are within 5 hexes and provided that you pass a leader check. There's a maximum of 6 SUs that can participate in combat this way.

So what happens if I attack a hex with 3 Tank Corps, all with 3 SUs each, and the HQs of the Tanks Corps also has 6 SUs attached? How many SUs will participate in the combat?

No idea, it's not really that much of a big issue though

[TSkoopCRP]

^ good question, I'm curious to know the limit as well. Will it be all 9 SUs of the CUs plus the 6 SU added from the corp HQ? I play mostly SU automated to cut down micromanaging, but this thread my make me think otherwise. I usually keep SUs in corps and Army HQs so they can have a chance to take part in as many battles as possible.

[randallw]

I'm guessing the amount of attachments does not change the chance of HQ support units getting into the battle.

About those Katyushas....there's at least 3 different types, with different accuracy ratings; I think the first type, it might be the 13-16 is really bad, then one of the heavier ones is much better.

[PMCN]

The initial Katashuka's the BM-something or another-16's are what I am talking about.  They have a range of 9000 (yards? meters? quatloos?) with a solid effect number (not sure what those antisoft antiarmour values actually mean but it is high).  That makes them range wise equal to your heavy mortars.  But they have only an ammo of 4...not sure what that means...so it maybe is that due to experience being only in the low 40s they only shoot in the final close range fire phase.  This would be consistent with what I saw/see in other battles with low experience artillery.  If you want artillery duels you need experienced artillery troops, otherwise you miss a lot of fire.

The other later war Katashuka's are much shorter ranged...3000 ish but with even higher effect numbers.  They may fire only in the last fire phase or they may fire with your medium mortars (so twice) as the ranges are about the same.

Experience plays a huge role in this games combat engine.  It significantly changes how often and how well a unit shoots.  The terrible casualties a soviet player experiences early war during an attack are in large part because your only fire is some anemic long range artillery shots at the start of the battle then NOTHING until the final fire phase, which is usually opened with a flame thrower attack.  This means even assuming you suffered no casualties during the advance, you have lost between 2/3rds to a half of your units overall firepower and so the enemy will suffer corresponding far lower casualties.  Factor in your losses during the advance and the fire you eventually can bring to bear is often minimal.  The change that is causing the axis such consternation is just that the soviet's in 42 don't loose that firepower anymore, their experience is now high enough you see exchanges during the battle.  The 120 mm mortars fire 3 times, the 82 mm mortars fire 2 times, the tanks fire at range (though still not so often) and at final fire, the HMGs kick in twice, etc.  All of that simply means more loses to the Axis side. 

Your attached SU do not count towards the per battle SU limit, that is for commitment from HQs only as far as I understand the way things work. 

[barkman44]

9000 quatloos would be my answer if i was a gamester from triskelion