Slowing down or stopping a Japanese Central Pacific strategy

[ny59giants]

I have read many AAR's about successful Central Pacific strategies that usually include an invasion of the Hawaii. Is there an effective way to eiither slow this down or stop it?? With some of those island like Palmrya and Johnson worth 225 points to the Japanese, the Allies cannot put enough LCU's on there to stop an invasion. Not trying to stop it from happening, but should there be some sort of trigger if Hawaii is invaded?? If that had happened IRL, what would the USA response have been material wise?? It seems to be almost impossible to stop the Japanese from taking all the islands from PH down to Pago Pago to build a wall that will be difficult to breach. The SRA/DEI seems to fall on it's own while the Central falls within the first 6 months or so.

Just an observation from an Allied player who has yet to face this naval bliztkrieg in a PBEM. [&o][&o]

[castor troy]

I think that invading Hawai as Japanese is the biggest mistake. Against a semi experienced opponent you will take huge losses not worth it. Against a green opponent? Don´t think I would do it, it´s just not worth the risk loosing CVs, BBs, CAs, not to mention all those transports. I´m speaking of a campaign that is supposed to last longer than mid 42. If only auto victory counts it would be different. I think if the Japanese wants those islands it´s hard to completely stop them but he will pay for it.

[anarchyintheuk]

What castor troy said. Look at Bloody Pacific, AmiralLaurent's aar. It's from the IJN/IJA perspective and it's very well written. The aar doesn't illustrate much about what the USN can do, but it will give you a good idea of the force structure, tactics, stragtegy and time table for a successful IJN/IJA assault.

[Mike Solli]

You mention 225 points for bases in the area. Don't forget to consider the considerable loss in ships, planes and ground units in taking those bases. I don't think it's worth the cost. It would also dramatically increase the amount of acreage the Japanese would have to hold too. There aren't enough Japanese ground units to be able to hold them with sufficient force. Then there's the supply required to keep them fed. The shipping losses to keep them supplied would be pretty high too. Not enough quality escorts.

[niceguy2005]

There isn't a lot the allies can do except make it extremely costly for the Japanese to try it. One advantage is that the Japanese will have limited air support, mostly carrier air power and Betties and Nells, unless they can take some of the other HI islands.

The strategy I recommend for the allies is start building up early. I send ENG units out early, ahead of infantry, to Midway, Johnson and Palyrma. Start building forts immediately. Atolls with tons of forts are a killer to an invading force. Make these islands an outer perimeter, when forts start to reach a decent level, around 4 or 5, start moving INf and ART to them. It would be difficult for the IJN to launch a sustained attack on PH by bypassing all of these islands.

At the same time, you need to determine your level of risk. If you want to maximize your defense around PH, then you also need to commit ENG units to build up the fort levels of other HI island bases. DONT build up the air fields, because you only invite the Japanese to come take them and use them against you. The trade off is if you maximize your defense around PH, you will have less to send to the South Pacific islands early. Its a choice and a gamble.

The reason this strategy works is that the Japanese must move lightning fast to take the area around HI. If they do attack they will always find your INF and ART behind heavy forts, either at PH, or later at your perimeter islands. They are never easily picked off.

[Feinder]

I think part of what an Allied player MUST do early on, is get as many troops off the West Coast as fast as he can (bring them Pearl Harbor).

Also, start accumulating those prep-points on 12-08. HAVE A PLAN. Make the decisions of what you want to deploy, and where, on the first turn (frankly, I have list of what gets prepped for where).

I've seen folks advocating doing a lot of AK conversions to ARs, MLEs, etc. But I find it's best to use everything you can, to haul everything off the West Coast asap. Grab anything you can, certinaly the INF type units, but it's ALL useful including the baseforces. And don't forget to top off with supplies, PH doesn't have that many supplies to start with, and will all those extra troops in PH, you're gonna need the extra rations.

Naturally, you need to do this without getting clobbered by KB patrolling east of PH (duh). So if KB is about, get loaded up, and turn circles in San Francisco Bay until he leaves. You can start the trip to PH, even with KB patrolling PH (at least you know where it is). But if KB heads east, you need to head east (back to SF) also. But if you're flooding with troops early on, it gives you some deployment options (and security). If you DON'T do the conversions, you easily have heavily reinfoced PH within 2 weeks (counting load-time and 10 days from SF to PH).

a. If you've got lots of guys on the ground at PH, you're less worried about him invading PH (and I agree, I think this is wasted effort for Japan). But once you've got a bunch of guys on PH, he's NOT going to capture PH, ever.
b. If you feel secure with PH, you can send your extra toops SW to Line Islands or SoPac or where ever. But if you used 20 AKs for conversions, that a LOT of 140,000 load points (almost 2 divisions) you DIDN'T send to PH on that first trip. That means it's more necessary for you keep those troops in PH, and less able to deploy them to Line Islands or elsewhere.

Once the troops from West Coast are at or nearing PH, I like send some guys to the line islands (assuming KB has cleared out). I don't have to send a whole divion to each island (you don't have that many men anyways). But send enough so that Japan can't grab the islands for free. Also, if your units have been prepping since 12-08, they've probably already got 40 prep-points, which will give them a bonus (about 40%) when defending.

If Japan really, really wants the Line Islands, you're not going to be able to stop him. But if you're well stocked at PH because you mobilzed everything 12-08, you'll have negated the actual threat to PH. From that point, it will be your mission to make it as costly as possible to Japan to hold Palmyra or whichever island(s) he's taken.

-F-

[Feinder]

FWIW, LtFightr tried grabbing Palmrya on 01-05-42 in our 1-v-1 game. I was kinda surprised to see him show up. I had deployed there, a USMC Def Btn, and the Base force (I think that's what it starts with). He landed with several SNLFs (3x I think), it was actually a close battle (getting 1:1 odds on his attacks). However, I had also had 1/3 Inf Div prepped from 12-08 for Plamyra (and other stuff), and immediatly sortied it to Pal on the 18kt APs. I sent a bombardment TF to disrupt his guys on the beach, hoping my feeble garison would hold. It worked (still 1:1), and the 1/3 Div started landing. It was enought to swing the odds in my favor.

I was lucky -

a. KB was patrolling east of PH, looking for convoys, not supporting the invasion. However, my convoys had already reached Pearl.
b. I was able to use my bombardment group to disrupt his attack (I had beaten off his own escorts).
c. My reinforcements finished landing just as KB showed up (he actually nailed my bombardment TF), but I had held Palmrya.

-F-

[medicff]

With the atolls, land one RCT or 1/3 Division and build forts as soon as possible. At level 9, almost an impossible task unless VERY committed. [;)] Hopefully WITP 2 will address the speed of operations and slow down both early and late onslaughts - I think one of the most desired features requested (in my mind anyway)

[moses]

At start Japan has 12 free divisions. To meet historical timelands against reasonable allied defence he needs to send 5 to Malaysia, 5 to PI, and 2 to Burma. Send for example 3 divisions to Malayia and you will likely be spending February in the vicinity of Aloa Star.

About three divisions will be needed in order to have reasonable chances to take Hawaii. These will be in transit all of December and likely engaged most of January. It will take another month to get them back to the SRA. So you lose 3 divisions for a minimum of three months. This is assuming you succeed. I think success is quite possible with three divisions but is by no means guarenteed.

Option one: Ignore Burma completly. Send 5 divisions to Malaysia and 4 to PI. Perhaps you can get lucky with weak allied defence and still prevail in PI. Once Singapore falls in February you can send these divisions to PI to finish things up there. Downside is Burma holds solidly at the river near Rangoon and may be quite difficult to break through in late February. Especially if you have to send Malaysian divisions to PI.

Option 2. Ignore PI completly. Cut it off by taking Daveo and just isolate it. Downside here is that the allies produce a lot of supply here if you don't take some of the resourses. Well supplied bombers will be smacking you around by February.

Not sure taking PH is worth it early on.

[niceguy2005]

I am doubtful that 3 divisions could take PH from me, at least not until February or March. I keep 2.5 to 3 divisions at PH through January, wth ENG and ART this is almost unbeatable, as it should be.

This leaves the line islands vulnerable to attack, but only by forces that are BDE size or larger because is will have 1-2 base forces, plus USMC defense battalions guarding. In recent experience this force can hold up to 3-4 Nav Guard units until reinforcements can be airlifted in.

If Japan brings larger than a BDE, there is no hope of holding the Islands, but as Moses pointed out, it is a trade of for the Japanese becuase it will slow their progress in Malaya and PI.

[herwin]

The USN was willing to sell Midway to the Japanese for cash. It was a lot closer to Pearl than to anything Japan could use as a fleet base, so it would have been a simple matter of time until we took it back. Also, there was a second fleet base in the Hawaiian Islands at Lahaina Roads, so the Japanese weren't done with just Pearl.

[AirGriff]

As fate would have it, I'm fighting the tail end of just such a scenario. My opponent slammed PH on day 1, as expected, but then continued a very effective choke hold on PH and the West Coast by operating KB in 2, maybe 3 different CV TF's continuously to present date (2/7/42). He was incredibly adept at grabbing everything in CENPAC/SOPAC to the point that I am now only left with New Zealand and Australia and that is about it (Fiji and PM are about to go--he's even grabbed the Society Islands WAY down south). With Midway and Johnston taken, Pearl choked by KB I was left wondering for over a month just how far my opponent was going to take things. Well, the veil of mystery has been lifted. About a week ago he showed up with KB and some powerful bombardment forces of 10 or 12 BB's. I have over 4,000 mines at Pearl and about 2k at the other HI bases, and I must say they've been a disappointment with only a handful of hits, though no landings have taken place as yet. He hit Pearl's AF with KB, and naval bombardment. I fought back with a gazillion B-17's (2 bg's), and a sqdn of B-26's (nice surprise, the Marauders load out with 1,000#ers at close range), and a sqdn of SBD's. Not an overwhelming amount of damage done, but enough that I've blunted the attack somewhat. The naval bmbt's didn't do much damage to me, but then the CD fire only did moderate dmg to one of his BB's and light to the rest. I got a hit on a carrier, but even those 1,000 pounders tend to bounce off the BB's, though I got enough hits to slowly incease damage--plus his AA ammo ran out eventually. The big thing I think is his pilot attrition. I've suffered about 4 or 5 air attacks plus my attacks on his CV's, and he's lost over 60 navy bombers (only about 10 zeroes [:(]). He's about to land at Hilo it looks like. He's got CV's covering the AP's, but I'm going to send out the airdales anyway. That's the situation up to now. Doesn't look good, but I'm just going to try and attrit him as much as possible. I've made the decision that I'll commit every spare aircraft I have to defend the HI, even at the cost of other theatres. It's just too important to give up. I know guys will say I should have reinforced the HI right away, but his CV's were prowling nonstop since day 1. I was able to sneak a lot of supply tansports in, but at about a 50% loss ratio.

Hind sight being what it is, I should have done what all these guys on here are suggesting and scrambled everything I could out of SF on day 1. I almost certainly would have lost a lot on initial convoys going into Pearl, but I could have broken each TF up into tiny little one ship TF's, changed course and reinforced all those SOPAC islands. Because he was so aggressive in other places, like Midway and Johnston Island, he was only able to grab the SOPAC stuff with NLF's and the like. He'd never have gotten away with half the crap I let him if I'd had all my regiments scattered around the islands in fragments (fragmenting units is something I strongly suspect he's been doing in order to make as big a land grab as he has). Mind you, this won't stop him in the long run, but he'll have to engage some larger units than NLF's to dislodge any kind of defense whatsoever. At least you won't give your opponent the pleasure cruise I've given mine.

Second big thing I should have picked up on sooner and am only now beginning to capitalize on, is that since his KB is busy with PH, I've got free reign to interfere with all his little beech resorts in SOPAC. Most of those don't have more than Lvl 1 AF's, so he doesn't have effective LBA out there, yet--just stay well away from Lvl 2 fields and above because he surely has some kind of LBA at those.

Had I done all this sooner, I'd have stalled out his advance and wouldn't be staring at an autovictory next year--I do have a plan, however, and we'll see if it avoids the unavoidable [;)]. Anyway, that's my experience and I've learned a lot, let me tell you. I heartily agree with all the advice given above. Just be very careful of KB if you're reinforcing PH right away. He'll be expecting that and if his evil little master plan is to make Pearl ineffective for the first year of the war he's going to do it. Just shift your forces to where he aint.

P.S. Keep track of his free divisions; Imp Gd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 16th, 18th, 21st, 33rd, 38th, 48th, 55th, 56th plus 8 brigades or so. That way you'll know when he's shot his bolt.

[Feinder]

Aingriff,

What's the status of your carriers...?

-F-

[Przemcio231]

Well Choking Hawaii with the 2 CV's TF's is nonse becouse smart Allied Player
A) He will group his CV and kill you one by one... [:D][:D]
B) when he sunk your replenishment group you will have to limp back to the closest port.


As for invading Hawaii this isn't wise to do so as its just not worth it... the US Army Planes are crappy but batteling them will cost Japs some planes and then Suprise US CV's show up and choop KB to pices becous your planes were downed by AA and Crappy Army planes...

[herwin]

Historically, an attempt to take Hawaii would have required continuous Japanese carrier operations on the Hawaiian sea approaches. We've already seen that fuel was a major constraint on the Pearl Harbor attack. To maintain carriers out there would have involved a shuttle operation to keep oilers in the area, provide pilot replacements, and replenishment. Operations beyond Pearl would have been unsustainable--in fact USN planning in the spring of 1942 was based on the assumption that Japanese operations from a Midway base would have been unsustainable. Carrier TFs were maintained in the Hawaiian sea approaches for much of 1942-3, but that was to discourage a raid, not defend against an invasion.

[moses]

The problem with sending everything to PH early on as allied is that Japan has a counter-strategy. Hate when that happens.[:D]

He just pretends to be preparing to invade. Maybe take Midway-the carriers spend some extra time hitting PH. Then about 15 Dec he makes a beeline for the west coast and nails your transports between SF and PH. It awful ugly when KB catches a division(+) a sea.

[AirGriff]

Aingriff,

What's the status of your carriers...?

-F-

All my flattops are in good shape. Going to make some noise with them soon, though. As for some other comments, I agree it's tough to sustain Jap carrier ops beyond PH, but I assume that's why he took Midway and Johnston. I think he's been using a 1o r 2 CV TF group to scout around with 3-5 carriers hanging back hoping my CV's would take the bait. His advance force picked off a lot of ships that way. I think he's been covering his Aleutian campaign that way, as well (which he's rolling up quite nicely). Of course, all that sea time has got to be wearing his ships down. I believe he has been shuttling carriers back and forth at least from his forward bases if not Kwajalein. At some point they're going to have to go in for a major overhaul.

B) when he sunk your replenishment group you will have to limp back to the closest port.


As for invading Hawaii this isn't wise to do so as its just not worth it... the US Army Planes are crappy but batteling them will cost Japs some planes and then Suprise US CV's show up and choop KB to pices becous your planes were downed by AA and Crappy Army planes...

I've been looking for those oilers ever since I figured out he was trying to isolate Pearl. No luck yet with the gazillion subs I have out there. Maybe he's just using Midway. The army is putting up as good a fight as they can. It's basically turned into a Battle of Britain at Hawaii, except I get to bomb him back. I mentioned I was attriting his pilots down, well, if I'm attriting his, he's slaughtering mine. The only thing I have going for me is I've been husbanding my aircraft pool for just such a fight. If he's going to win this I think he's going to have to bite the bullet and sacrifice a ton more pilots to put Pearl's AF out of service. Once he's got a base in there somewhere he can go nurse his carriers back to health and let the LBA take the heat. I'm going to punish him either way, though.

Historically, an attempt to take Hawaii would have required continuous Japanese carrier operations on the Hawaiian sea approaches. We've already seen that fuel was a major constraint on the Pearl Harbor attack. To maintain carriers out there would have involved a shuttle operation to keep oilers in the area, provide pilot replacements, and replenishment. Operations beyond Pearl would have been unsustainable--in fact USN planning in the spring of 1942 was based on the assumption that Japanese operations from a Midway base would have been unsustainable.

I agree by spring of '42 the US planners were feeling pretty safe about Hawaii, but many prewar planners were very nervous about the place being untenable, much less most of SOPAC. Basically, my nemesis has conjured up the US Navy's worst nightmare. And by the way, my opponent has smugly pointed out he's got plenty of fuel right now. It's supplies he's short of because he's so damned busy invading every little green dot on the map.

[AirGriff]

Some of my last post was supposed to be in quote boxes from you guys, but for some reason it didn't format that way. Hope you can decipher what others said and what my reply was.

Never mind. Mynok got me straightened out.

[Feinder]

It's not -THAT- hard to skate around IJN CV patrols between SF and PH.

The happy little suicide AK or Flush-Deck that plows ahead of a convoy works just fine. If your point gets killed, you know it time to either scatter or turn around. It also has the effect of burning up sorties, which makes him turn around.

If he's got KB broken up into 2s, it's an opportunity for you to hit back. I wouldn't normally advocate engaging KB before March, but since he's broken up KB, you stand a chance. And if you've got airbattles for control of PH, you're playing for all the marbles. He obviously knows exactly what he's doing. He's hitting PH with everything, and if you don't respond with everything, you'll likely lose the farm.

This is why I get frustrated with WitP tho. Stuff like this (Japan conquering the entire Pacific by March) was utterly impossible. But, it makes a for a fun game, even if it requires a bit of "suspension of disbelief."

Cheers.
-F-

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

Some of my last post was supposed to be in quote boxes from you guys, but for some reason it didn't format that way. Hope you can decipher what others said and what my reply was.

There's an edit button......... [:'(]